Frozen Balls - CB and OB

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
Hey Guys,

last night in league, a player had been faced with a shot where the CB & OB were frozen. he had asked me if he can shoot through it, and i told him that would be a foul. i know this ruling has changed quite a few times over the years, and i told him that in our league that would be a foul.

i know this scenario comes up in all games, but i am posting it here because it happened during a 14.1 game.

Did i make the correct call ?

In all events and leagues that i have played in this was ruled a foul.

Maybe Mr. Jewitt will chime in !!!

Thanks
-Steve
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
It has been legal at pool to shoot through a frozen ball for a long time according to the official rule set. See http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/the_rules_of_play -- I think you will find some other surprises there as well.

At the recent one pocket tournament I played in the rule for the headstring was that the full ball had to be in the appropriate region. That's a home-made rule, of course. The official rules judge the position of a ball according to its center (or as some would say, its base).

If there are other balls nearby, you sometimes have to be careful. If the cue ball is frozen against a ball in the rack, it will generally be illegal to shoot straight at that ball due to the subsequent collisions and the cue stick will likely hit the cue ball multiple times.
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
well i guess i made the wrong call !!!

the player ended up playing a safety instead of the shot, and the outcome of this would not have made a difference in the final game score.

at least now i know the correct answer !!!

thanks for your help guys :thumbup:

-Steve
 

BigDeal52

Don Pearce
Silver Member
You can shoot through but you risk a double hit.Sometimes it is hard to determine a double hit so you need to get an unbiased party to watch the hit.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You can shoot through but you risk a double hit.Sometimes it is hard to determine a double hit so you need to get an unbiased party to watch the hit.
If they are frozen it is pretty hard to get a double hit unless you use a very unusual stroke.
 

rikdee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When the CB is frozen to an OB, would hitting slightly across the intended line of aim, while at the same time throwing it back onto the intended line with side spin, preclude a double hit?
 

LTL

Registered
When the CB is frozen to an OB, would hitting slightly across the intended line of aim, while at the same time throwing it back onto the intended line with side spin, preclude a double hit?

This was always my interpretation of this type of shot. In this case however the player in question wanted to shoot directly through the ball that was frozen to the CB. (Not slightly off to the side, or with an elevated cue).

Apparently this is permissible now... which is news to me. :rolleyes:
 

LTL

Registered
If they are frozen it is pretty hard to get a double hit unless you use a very unusual stroke.


It seems to me that the official ruling on this is still subjective to the person taking the shot and the person making the call based on the description below... When the CB and OB are frozen it is entirely possible to contact the CB twice, and depending on the speed of the stroke that is taken on a shot like this it may be very difficult to get a definitive call.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I was the opponent of the player who wanted to take this shot.


6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls

If the cue stick contacts the cue ball more than once on a shot, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is close to but not touching an object ball and the cue tip is still on the cue ball when the cue ball contacts that object ball, the shot is a foul. If the cue ball is very close to an object ball, and the shooter barely grazes that object ball on the shot, the shot is assumed not to violate the first paragraph of this rule, even though the tip is arguably still on the cue ball when ball-ball contact is made.

However, if the cue ball is touching an object ball at the start of the shot, it is legal to shoot towards or partly into that ball (provided it is a legal target within the rules of the game) and if the object ball is moved by such a shot, it is considered to have been contacted by the cue ball. (Even though it may be legal to shoot towards such a touching or “frozen” ball, care must be taken not to violate the rules in the first paragraph if there are additional balls close by.)

The cue ball is assumed not to be touching any ball unless it is declared touching by the referee or opponent. It is the shooter’s responsibility to get the declaration before the shot. Playing away from a frozen ball does not constitute having hit that ball unless specified in the rules of the game.


This video does a nice job of illustrating these types of shots, but it's still a tough call in some situations in my opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kuPPBb3ajBY
 
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BigDeal52

Don Pearce
Silver Member
Bob,

I am definitely not in your class of knowledge and if you are talking about good pool players I am sure you are correct. But if you took 10 players which are, what I would call, weekend warriors and told them to shoot through the balls and film it with very high speed equipment I would think you would see some interesting results. And some of them would look OK in SloMo but if the player was honest he/she would admit they felt a double hit. That was my thinking when I posted earlier.

If you accelerate through with the cue you would be OK but I have seen folks try and punch the ball or deaccelerate and all sorts of funny things when they are faced with a shot like that.
 

LTL

Registered
Bob,

I am definitely not in your class of knowledge and if you are talking about good pool players I am sure you are correct. But if you took 10 players which are, what I would call, weekend warriors and told them to shoot through the balls and film it with very high speed equipment I would think you would see some interesting results. And some of them would look OK in SloMo but if the player was honest he/she would admit they felt a double hit. That was my thinking when I posted earlier.

If you accelerate through with the cue you would be OK but I have seen folks try and punch the ball or deaccelerate and all sorts of funny things when they are faced with a shot like that.

I concur! I consider myself a 'weekend warrior' type player also, and I agree it's difficult to question someone like Mr. Jewitt, but it is extremely difficult to make these calls with the average player. If it's not a shot that will determine the outcome of the game/match, select another option! (safety or intentional foul/back scratch). :smile:
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Bob,

I am definitely not in your class of knowledge and if you are talking about good pool players I am sure you are correct. But if you took 10 players which are, what I would call, weekend warriors and told them to shoot through the balls and film it with very high speed equipment I would think you would see some interesting results. And some of them would look OK in SloMo but if the player was honest he/she would admit they felt a double hit. That was my thinking when I posted earlier.

If you accelerate through with the cue you would be OK but I have seen folks try and punch the ball or deaccelerate and all sorts of funny things when they are faced with a shot like that.
I think a frozen-ball shot on which the are decelerating is entirely safe.

As I understand the shot, the only way you are going to get a double hit is to use a stroke that is extended forward in a very exaggerated manner. For example, put the tip a quarter inch from the cue ball and then without any backstroke at all, gradually make the stick go faster and faster forward and follow through two feet. That is not a normal stroke.

Any shot like a break shot or a lag shot straight through the center of the cue ball should be fine.

If you play a draw shot with an extended follow through, maybe you could hit the cue ball twice.

If a player has a normal backstroke, a normal forward stroke that hits the ball more or less at peak speed and no grossly extended follow through, I think a double hit is not possible.
 

mjantti

Enjoying life
Silver Member
The rules also state that in order to call a foul, you need to be 100% certain of it. If the balls are frozen, I don't think you can prove a foul occurring except on the clear push shot Bob described. The rule is pretty easy to use: You really cannot foul with a double hit with a standard stroke on this shot, or even if you did, it would be almost impossible to prove it.
 
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