Golf Theory - Putting - Does it apply to pool

F

fxskater

Ryan The Salmon Arm Lynn
Silver Member
Okay i watched an informercial today on a new putter. The whole advertisement was to do with getting the ball rolling instantly instead of having it bounce there. They showed thier putter on a green with dew to show the trackline had no gaps and was rolling right off the face of the putter, then they showed thier competitors doing the same thing except it would bounce for the first 10 or so feet.

Could something like this apply to pool? Could someone design a cue with less 'bounce'? I was just thinking about it, i don't actually think there is practical application, because in pool the ball is actually more accurate while traveling through the air, as there is no cloth to cause accidental english to change the ball path. Thats how i understand it anyways. But in breaking i know that ball bouncing can be a problem with sending the cueball off the table. Could someone design a break cue with less bounce? I know why the ball jumps and such, but if people are designing cues to jump better could they make them Jump worse to? Would you buy into someone advertising less bounce on a break cue?

Just something i was pondering today, and I'm looking for other POSITIVE opinions. You can give me reasons why it is not practical, just don't tell me I'm a fool.
 
Much has been written over the years about the similarity between putting fudamentals and pool fundamentals. Advice applicable to both includes:

1) keep your head still through the stroke
2) don't jab, stroke smooth, and accelerate through the ball
3) let your arms be your only moving parts

Your post is interesting, but I'm not sure that minimum bounce is a top priority. At the pool table, even a level stroke has a few degrees of elevation, so the roll of the cue ball cannot logically be expected to be comparable to that of a golf ball.

I look forward to hearing what others have to say on this.
 
fxskater said:
Okay i watched an informercial today on a new putter. The whole advertisement was to do with getting the ball rolling instantly instead of having it bounce there. They showed thier putter on a green with dew to show the trackline had no gaps and was rolling right off the face of the putter, then they showed thier competitors doing the same thing except it would bounce for the first 10 or so feet.

Could something like this apply to pool? Could someone design a cue with less 'bounce'? I was just thinking about it, i don't actually think there is practical application, because in pool the ball is actually more accurate while traveling through the air, as there is no cloth to cause accidental english to change the ball path. Thats how i understand it anyways. But in breaking i know that ball bouncing can be a problem with sending the cueball off the table. Could someone design a break cue with less bounce? I know why the ball jumps and such, but if people are designing cues to jump better could they make them Jump worse to? Would you buy into someone advertising less bounce on a break cue?

Just something i was pondering today, and I'm looking for other POSITIVE opinions. You can give me reasons why it is not practical, just don't tell me I'm a fool.
Click to expand...

Its rather simple: The harder the tip - the '"quicker" the CB comes off the tip . Also - The harder the tip - the more likelyhood of "bouncing" will occur because more energy is transfered into the CB (as opposed to being absorbed into a soft tip <think of a pillow>)

As for the CB traveling "in the air" as opposed to the cloth being "more accurate while traveling through the air" - Untrue. Speed is the determining factor due to momentum (mass in motion). If the CB is traveling at HIGH SPEED - English becomes more and more 'ignored' because the momentum overcomes the friction on the cloth.

This is why "soft masse" can really curl a CB nicely at slow speeds - because the momentum is reduced to the point where the friction on the cloth can take its greatest effect.

<< Could someone design a break cue with less bounce? >>
Sure - pile up a really 3 of the softest tips you can find on your cue. You'll have very little bounce - LOL - in fact ...you'll have a "zero response" worthless cue !
 
I rarely use my 0 degree pool cue so i'll input something different. Several years ago Golf mag had an article where they tested grip pressure troughout the stroke with a putter. The best putters on tour had very little varation in grip pressure from start to end of stroke. The worst putters had extreme changes. Just a tad bit of info that will help anyones pool game as well.

Rod
 
Rodd said:
I rarely use my 0 degree pool cue so i'll input something different. Several years ago Golf mag had an article where they tested grip pressure troughout the stroke with a putter. The best putters on tour had very little varation in grip pressure from start to end of stroke. The worst putters had extreme changes. Just a tad bit of info that will help anyones pool game as well.

Rod
Click to expand...

Wow, that's really interesting, but it does make sense on reflection.
 
Couple tables i have played on i have had to get eye level and read the roll ya know. Watch out for the sand trap!!!! FORE!!!!!!

'Muxy.
 
Snooker players

Peter Alliss once remarked that the best amateur putters were the snooker pros. He said their speed control on the greens was so superior to your average player. Cliff Thorburn was known for his excellent putting.

I can't say I've noticed any correlation. I've only been playing pool regulary for two years (with almost no golf), whereas I played golf at a high level the previous 15 years without playing any pool. Judging by the amount of 3-putts I had on a recent trip, I definitely have poorer speed control on the greens than I used to but that is more than likely because of my lack of play. Once I can run 100 balls and I start getting back into golf, I'll see if I notice any improvement in my speed control on the greens.
 
If my memory serves me correctly, I think FL wrote a couple of articles about the correlation between a well struck putt that gets to rolling immediately without any skid and an well struck CB that rolls immediately for accuracy. The only way I can see doing it is to use follow more often, which isn't what the normal player cares to do. Typically out of habit and pleasure to the eye, most players hit the CB with a pop stroke trying to draw it or apply too much english to see the CB dance around the table. With those shots you're going to end up with a lot of skid.

You can do some accuracy tests yourself by setting up long straight in shots and hitting about a dozen with draw and a dozen with follow and I think you'll find the follow to be more accurate because it's a more relaxed stroke with good extension straight through the CB and down the line. And as Rodd mentioned, you'll also be less apt to change your grip pressure as you would with a hard draw.
 
fxskater said:
Okay i watched an informercial today on a new putter. The whole advertisement was to do with getting the ball rolling instantly instead of having it bounce there. They showed thier putter on a green with dew to show the trackline had no gaps and was rolling right off the face of the putter, then they showed thier competitors doing the same thing except it would bounce for the first 10 or so feet.
Click to expand...

Really?
Predator is making a putter now?
 
drivermaker said:
You can do some accuracy tests yourself by setting up long straight in shots and hitting about a dozen with draw and a dozen with follow and I think you'll find the follow to be more accurate because it's a more relaxed stroke with good extension straight through the CB and down the line. .
Click to expand...

the cue ball will take a more accurate path, but using follow has a tendency to make the object ball skid or skip. draw and follow both have thier own faults.

the difference in golf and pool in this situation is that in pool you have to make the ball hit another, where in golf all you are concerned about is making one ball in the hole.

VAP
 
dont overlook the fact that a cue ball is quite smooth and a golf ball is not
and simmonis over slate is near perfectly flat when compared to even the nicest greens out there

surely this would minimize the problems associated with a cue ball skidding
at the beginning of the shot

however i could see times like when a "chip" of chalk is laying on the table
that the cue ball rolling would be to your advantage
 
BazookaJoe said:
Really?
Predator is making a putter now?
Click to expand...

Yep, and i heard DM was so impressed with their pool related projects, he has volunteered his time be on the development team :D

VAP
 
k-carson said:
surely this would minimize the problems associated with a cue ball skidding
at the beginning of the shot
Click to expand...

you'd be surprised how often the cue ball is in the air. especially like DM said, with anything below center.

using follow is the closest you can get to having your cue perfectly level. anything lower and the butt of the cue is elavated a significant amount(for purposes of this convo anyway). this is due to such things as your bride hand, your swing hand, and things like the rails(which keep you from holding your cue level on many many shots.

with that amount of elavation, the cue ball has nowhere else to go but the air due to the amount of downward motion from the cue(think a jump shot, but not to that extreme)

and as DM also stated, you can almost eliminate this by using follow.......but as i stated, you run into the problem of the object ball skipping, due to the downward force exerted on the object ball from the forward motion of the cue ball.

now that i think of it, this would explain why most kicking systems advice you to use high running english. the running english keeps the correct angle off the rail and and follow keeps the ball from skipping as much.

it all boils down to the fact that follow and draw both have their setbacks, but if done correctly neither presents so much of a problem that one is not able to control them.

VAP
 
fxskater said:
Okay i watched an informercial today on a new putter. The whole advertisement was to do with getting the ball rolling instantly instead of having it bounce there. They showed thier putter on a green with dew to show the trackline had no gaps and was rolling right off the face of the putter, then they showed thier competitors doing the same thing except it would bounce for the first 10 or so feet.

Could something like this apply to pool? Could someone design a cue with less 'bounce'? I was just thinking about it, i don't actually think there is practical application, because in pool the ball is actually more accurate while traveling through the air, as there is no cloth to cause accidental english to change the ball path. Thats how i understand it anyways. But in breaking i know that ball bouncing can be a problem with sending the cueball off the table. Could someone design a break cue with less bounce? I know why the ball jumps and such, but if people are designing cues to jump better could they make them Jump worse to? Would you buy into someone advertising less bounce on a break cue?

Just something i was pondering today, and I'm looking for other POSITIVE opinions. You can give me reasons why it is not practical, just don't tell me I'm a fool.
Click to expand...


The infomercial was a load of BS. It was marketing a scam putter, that's all. The reverse loft putters don't work. Read some stuff out there on putting. Sure, if you strike a put horribly and get it bouncing it is a problem, but don't pay too much attention to that infomercial. Check out Dave Pelz for what actually happens in putting and for some similarities between pool and putting. Pelz actually envies the simplicity of the pool stroke in that it is a pure down the line motion.
 
vapoolplayer said:
Yep, and i heard DM was so impressed with their pool related projects, he has volunteered his time be on the development team :D

VAP
Click to expand...


Yep...they're giving me all the shafts that I want for free and I'll be on their playing staff.
 
JPB said:
The infomercial was a load of BS. It was marketing a scam putter, that's all. The reverse loft putters don't work. Read some stuff out there on putting. Sure, if you strike a put horribly and get it bouncing it is a problem, but don't pay too much attention to that infomercial. Check out Dave Pelz for what actually happens in putting and for some similarities between pool and putting. Pelz actually envies the simplicity of the pool stroke in that it is a pure down the line motion.
Click to expand...

I was wondering when putter loft would come up in this thread. Golf balls bounce when putted because the loft of the putter lifts the ball a bit. The stroke definately affects the tragectory (or lack thereof). I would agree that negative lofted putters are a bad idea. You might end up leaving your hands behind to head to create the loft needed to prevent pounding the ball into the green. They might make that 'Texas Wedge' shot easier, which is cool. Not that this has anything to do with pool ...

Dave Pelz on pool, that might be interesting ...

Dave, but not a rocket scientist ...
 
drivermaker said:
Yep...they're giving me all the shafts that I want for free and I'll be on their playing staff.
Click to expand...

Who's giving you the shaft ?

Dave
 
DaveK said:
Who's giving you the shaft ?

Dave
Click to expand...


Everybody. I'm always getting the shaft because I'm too nice a guy and someone is invariably taking advantage. I need to toughen up and be more assertive.....
 
drivermaker said:
Everybody. I'm always getting the shaft because I'm too nice a guy and someone is invariably taking advantage. I need to toughen up and be more assertive.....
Click to expand...

Yikes, someone HAS hijacked Drivermakers account :D

Dave
 
fxskater said:
Okay i watched an informercial today on a new putter. The whole advertisement was to do with getting the ball rolling instantly instead of having it bounce there. They showed thier putter on a green with dew to show the trackline had no gaps and was rolling right off the face of the putter, then they showed thier competitors doing the same thing except it would bounce for the first 10 or so feet.

Could something like this apply to pool? Could someone design a cue with less 'bounce'? I was just thinking about it, i don't actually think there is practical application, because in pool the ball is actually more accurate while traveling through the air, as there is no cloth to cause accidental english to change the ball path. Thats how i understand it anyways. But in breaking i know that ball bouncing can be a problem with sending the cueball off the table. Could someone design a break cue with less bounce? I know why the ball jumps and such, but if people are designing cues to jump better could they make them Jump worse to? Would you buy into someone advertising less bounce on a break cue?

Just something i was pondering today, and I'm looking for other POSITIVE opinions. You can give me reasons why it is not practical, just don't tell me I'm a fool.
Click to expand...


I didn't see the infomercial yet, but there are a number of ways to control a bouncing or skidding golf ball with equipment, but moreso with the actual stroke and positioning of the face and shaft when you strike it just like in pool.

In designing a putter to do it, you can either make a zero loft putter or negative loft to get the ball rolling quicker. That will work pretty good on lightening fast greens that are shaved like the top of Michael Jordan's head, but when you have slower greens that aren't shaved for PGA Tournament conditions and the grass is longer, it'll knock the ball down into the grass instead of riding on top of it like a normally lofted putter and the ball will actually go toward the cup in a squiggly line because of the grass affecting it.

Another way to do it is by making a deeper face on the putter from the sole to crown, (bottom to top) in order to ensure that the ball is never struck lower than the equator. If the face is deep, you also want the upper half of the face or trailing edge behind the face to be heavier than the lower half so that the center of gravity is higher on the contact point of face and ball to keep it as the leading edge. You wouldn't want the lower portion to contact the ball first below it's equator.

You can accomplish all of the above with any putter by moving your hands forward, hooding it, keeping your weight well forward onto the left side, pulling through with the hands leading the putter face, or hitting up on it to make contact higher on the golf ball.

I guess they could enlarge the tip on the cue from 13mm up to about 50mm to help do that, but it still comes down to stroke and cue tip positioning....you f*#l. :p :D (The devil made me do it...I couldn't help myself)
 
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