Goodbye APA, it's been fun...

KingCarom

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've played in the APA off and on since 1994, and had a really good time over the years, but this year I have come to the realization that this time is over and it's time to get serious about playing pool. So, I am going to contact Mark A. here in the Seattle area and find out what I need to know about the BCA, and go from there. Here's a few observations of the APA and the reason I'm leaving it:

Handicap system-
I think it's a total crock of you know what!
Firstly, has anyone ever seen this system? Does it exist on a spreadsheet or is it some type of software that performs calculations of a players last 15 games, then determine if they should go up or down? Or, is it up to the league operator, based on their potentially inconsistent observations of how a player has played recently. Is it subject to favoritism of one player over another? Or are rating kept static to "help" a team stay under their 23 rule cap for a spell?

From what I have witnessed, a league operator can arbitrarily move a player up or down based on their reputation or recent play, in order to match their SL more closely to "reality" I think this fact speaks volumes in terms of the integrity of the equalizer system. How can it be equal if the system allows judgment calls to be made like this? Where are the checks and balances?

I'm fed up with it if you can't tell, because in my League it seems like we have alot of people who should go up and don't, alot of people who shouldn't go up and do!
Equal(izer) my a$$!
Unfortunately, there are alot of motives for the league (some good, some bad) for it to stay that way.


The people/the players-

Over time & in the past, I've had many different types of people on my teams (I've been captain most years). All of them enjoy playing pool, but they rarely want to practice. Right now, I cant get my team together to practice on their own or in a group no matter what I try. The result is alot of lost games/points that drive me right up the 'friggin wall. Sometimes we get lucky and an un-practiced player beats an opponent, but most of the time they get their ass handed to them, like they should!!
It's this type of lack of dedication to the game that is driving me away. I don't want to play with these types any more, becasue it's dragging me down. Some of you reading this may have good teams that practice alot, well good on ya. Stick with them and practice away, hopefully you'll go far. It's really hard to find people that will play on a league team and dedicate themselves to the game of pool. It goes further than this......

This last fall session I had a great team. Not only did we all get along, but all were dedicated to the game and would practice regularly. We all played really well, holding first place with points to spare for 3/4 of the session. But over the last few matches my 2 went to a 3, some of my 3's became 4's, one 5 became a 6, and before you know it we can only play 1 or 2 combinations of players each night. I could only play if both my 3's should show up and I threw them both. It sucked. Finally, we had a good team, but due to the SL cap, we couldn't play together any more and had to break the team into two teams. Time to start over again....

That's the straw that broke the Camel's back. I have realized that I am never going to be happy in this league, because as soon as you become successful as a team, you have to split it up or add new players and drop old ones. When you change the roster on a great team, the teams performance is going to suffer. When you have to split a team into two, both teams really suffer.

I am hoping that by joining the BCA, I'll be surrounding myself with more people that really care abotu the game. People who practice and will encourage me to practice and play better, as well as exercise a little etiquette around the table for goodness sake!


So, there ya have it folks. There are other reasons why I don't care for the league, but at the risk of posting a topic that's too verbose, I'll pass for now.

I'll be joining the ranks of the BCA as soon as I can, never to play in the APA again after this session is over.

See ya Round!
 
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My sympathies

I would follow your lead except that there is no BCA in eastern Massachusetts. I've also heard that BCA as a trade orginization has agreed to stop competing with its members and will cease to operate the BCA leauge within the next few years. The BCA league will have a different name and ownership (I was told this by my APA league operator, so take it for what its worth)

My other reservation is the lack of national orginization as compared to APA. If you go to the BCA web site, they talk about "rouge operators" who have yet to send in handicap info for the upcoming Las Vegas tournement. They are will to "sanction" existing leagues, but they don't seem to have a mechanisim to get new franchises started.

Having said all that, I do think the BCA rules are much fairer than APA and from what I've read of the format, I think it makes more sense as well.

Anyone in eastern mass want to start a BCA league?
 
Came into that reality 2 sessions ago atfer only 5 sessions of 8/9 ball play!!!

Pretty sad when I stay a 5 for 4 sessions and then move to a 6........lose 1 game by 1 point in 9 ball and drop to a 5 again.......crap crap crap.........




BCA by far is much much better......


Look at it this way....... no sh*t shots :D:D:D:D



Jamie
 
You have to have an understanding that you are playing in a handicapped league. I hear some of my own friends complain about it, but they know very well that's how the ratings worked when they joined. The APA is nowhere near perfect, but they have done a fairly good job at making a handicap system that encourages people of all skill levels to play (with the exception of the more die-hard players that should be playing in more serious leagues). The adjusting of handicaps is a way of trying to stop people from sandbagging, and I can applaud that. I do agree, however, that this is a double-edged sword; people with established ratings can play their 4 matches in the season and either flail purposefully or do just well enough for the win and to make sure their ratings don't change.

If it is just the rating system and amateur rules (and sometimes conduct) that you don't like, start up a Triple Play Masters team - no skill levels and there are even races (points are decided by games won).

I'm enjoying it more often than not and I accept the ratings system (for what it's worth) and the rules since I knew they were in place when I joined. Eventually, though, I do see myself leaning more towards a formal and more competitive league. Not that BCA rules are perfect - what genius says slop is cheap but okays a scratch on the 8-ball? 6 in one hand, 1/2 dozen in the other.
 
Tommy Tube Sock -- It is easy to start a league - even in eastern Massachusetts. Just contact the BCA Pool League office at 702-719-7665.

The BCA (Billiard Congress of America) is a trade association - the BCA Pool League is a seperate entity that only operate leagues. The name will not change (so much for APA accuracy).

The BCA PL is very willing to sanction existing leagues. We also have a very generous "dual-sanctioning" policy. That is because we are for the pool players and not just for the league operators.

We have a lot of new leagues that started in the recent year. We do not have franchises. We expect to have about 450 leagues at our year end (May 31st).

We welcome all players to join the BCA - or ask questions about us. We are here for the pool players. We are adding $200,000 to events in the 2005-2006 season. Our 8-ball championships (May 12-20 at the Riviera in Vegas) is shaping up with a 15% increase over last year-should be about 8000 players.

Mark Griffin
BCAPL
702-719-7665
markg@playbca.com
 
Have you?

heard of the term 'Hard coding'? That is when a specific entry is made into a
program for a certain value which is contrary to the normal rules of the program. When someone average is determined by the League Operator, they hard code that value instead of just letting the league formulas figure it out like everyone else. If leag_num = '101' and leag_avg < 6 then leag_avg = 6 (to set a minimum avg for player with league assigned number 101)

Hard coding is not a good idea, and has to be kept track of seperately from
normal logic, but they still do it.
 
I was hesitant to reply then I said what the heck. I've played in the APA for 5 years, and I can say that I've had my share of frustrations as well. But, here's some advice that I can share.

1. Captains - put together a team of like minded people, if you want to just have fun fine, if you want to be serious fine, but be of the same mind set with the same goals.

2. Put together a team with a core of 5 people in some cases 4, this group is the team that will alway's make up your squad session to session, the other 3 or 4 people have to come in with the understanding that they will only be kept on the team as long as handicaps allow, they are your role players. Now that doesn't mean that they don't play to win they do and should but, it's up to you the CAPTAIN TO CORRECTLY THROW YOUR PLAYERS based on when you need a win or not, if they win great if they loose it's okay because if they weren't supposed to win the match based on the match up who knew. This is how you help to control your handicaps. If you have a 2 that's been winning to much, throw them in a few matches that you technically know they shouldn't win, they don't have to know that their lambs being sent to slaughter, their going to go out and do their best as they should.

3. The skill levels are directly linked too:

a) Who you beat, handicap level
b) Winning percentage
c) Average number of innings per game

4. Alway's, Alway's, Alway's did I say that enough, MARK ALL SAFTEIES if it wasn't a shot attempt, it was a defense period your opinion is the only one that matters, they don't have to equal the other teams number. Nor do inning counts have to match they should be relatively close off by 1 or 2 but, if you honestly feel that your count is right don't change a thing. This is one of the biggest way's that people get away with sandbagging you have the ability to stop it.

Hope this help's, Black Cat :cool:
 
Tommy Tube Sock said:
I would follow your lead except that there is no BCA in eastern Massachusetts. I've also heard that BCA as a trade orginization has agreed to stop competing with its members and will cease to operate the BCA leauge within the next few years. The BCA league will have a different name and ownership (I was told this by my APA league operator, so take it for what its worth)

My other reservation is the lack of national orginization as compared to APA. If you go to the BCA web site, they talk about "rouge operators" who have yet to send in handicap info for the upcoming Las Vegas tournement. They are will to "sanction" existing leagues, but they don't seem to have a mechanisim to get new franchises started.

Having said all that, I do think the BCA rules are much fairer than APA and from what I've read of the format, I think it makes more sense as well.

Anyone in eastern mass want to start a BCA league?

I think you will enjoy the BCA. Lots of people go to Vegas in May. I think you can pay a small santion fee and play in the individuals on short notice. There is no handicap which is an excellent test for your skills. However if you fair really well, you get to move to the Masters which is even better competition.

We had a good BCA league here but it fell apart a few years ago.
 
It took you 12 years to find out?

Anyway, they started a BCA league here, I didn't get in, but in speaking with the players it is not run the same way as the former BCA. Handicap system really sucks and teams are finding they have to spot other teams points when everyone knows the other team has the better players. If changes are not made players will quit.

Black Cat - you are not suggesting that people should sandbag in the APA now are you? LOL. I agree with all you said. Another way to hold down the SL is in coaching. When your 2 or 3 is confused on a shot you call time out. Then you tell him what to do and where to hit the rail and if it is off just a bit and he misses who will know. Ha Ha. Everyone thinks the coach is the fool and you get that extra inning or a loss for your team mate and that is what you want.

But I got tired of the sandbagging, and my teammates didn't realize how important it was, so I too dropped out. About a year ago.

Now I just play in local tournaments. Less aggravation. And besides, I win more than I lose and don't have to hold back anymore.

Jake
 
jjinfla said:
It took you 12 years to find out?

Anyway, they started a BCA league here, I didn't get in, but in speaking with the players it is not run the same way as the former BCA. Handicap system really sucks and teams are finding they have to spot other teams points when everyone knows the other team has the better players. If changes are not made players will quit.

Black Cat - you are not suggesting that people should sandbag in the APA now are you? LOL. I agree with all you said. Another way to hold down the SL is in coaching. When your 2 or 3 is confused on a shot you call time out. Then you tell him what to do and where to hit the rail and if it is off just a bit and he misses who will know. Ha Ha. Everyone thinks the coach is the fool and you get that extra inning or a loss for your team mate and that is what you want.

What Black Cat's advocating is intelligent management of handicaps- it's not sandbagging. He's not asking his 2/3 to lose or pad innings, just making it likely that s/he'll lose despite a best effort.
 
Black Cat 5791 said:
3. The skill levels are directly linked too:

a) Who you beat, handicap level


Actually, that's not true. Your opponent's S/L has no direct impact on the calculation of your handicap.
 
I don't want to type for hours, but just a few short thing;

The APA is smart, they know who makes up the majority of their shooters, and they cater to them. APA SL3 and SL4s are the overwhelming majority of players. APA is a profit making organization, and, they cater to these people, not the SL7s who are far and few, overall.

BCA is cool, but how about TAP? No TAP in your area? Neither was it in ours, until someone started it.

Better plays, better rules. No slop eight ball, called pocket, players choice of balls after break (eight ball), and SLs drop one from APA to start (APA SL5 = TAP SL4). Plus, team points up to 25 instead of 23.

We could go from an APA team of two SL7s, and SL6, two SL4s, and a SL3, and shoot every night in TAP, without even being close to the team points total.
 
fred_in_hoboken said:
Actually, that's not true. Your opponent's S/L has no direct impact on the calculation of your handicap.

No, actually, you don't know, unless you are corporate, or work for the APA league offices.

Read here on "How your handicap is calculated" Good luck finding any formulas, or any valuable information, for that matter.
 
=BanksNot that BCA rules are perfect - what genius says slop is cheap but okays a scratch on the 8-ball? 6 in one hand, 1/2 dozen in the other.

What do you mean by, "okays a scratch on 8-ball"..."ball in hand" is a devastating penalty! Besides, who wants to win on a scratch?
 
Mark Griffin said:
Tommy Tube Sock -- It is easy to start a league - even in eastern Massachusetts. Just contact the BCA Pool League office at 702-719-7665.

The BCA (Billiard Congress of America) is a trade association - the BCA Pool League is a seperate entity that only operate leagues. The name will not change (so much for APA accuracy).

The BCA PL is very willing to sanction existing leagues. We also have a very generous "dual-sanctioning" policy. That is because we are for the pool players and not just for the league operators.

We have a lot of new leagues that started in the recent year. We do not have franchises. We expect to have about 450 leagues at our year end (May 31st).

We welcome all players to join the BCA - or ask questions about us. We are here for the pool players. We are adding $200,000 to events in the 2005-2006 season. Our 8-ball championships (May 12-20 at the Riviera in Vegas) is shaping up with a 15% increase over last year-should be about 8000 players.

Mark Griffin
BCAPL
702-719-7665
markg@playbca.com


I guess I'm not so interested in starting a BCA league.
As a division rep for APA, I know how much hassle there is in managing an existing division, let alone starting a whole new league from scratch.

I also don't understand "dual sanctioning" If our APA league wants to be sanctioned by BCA, do we play by APA rules or BCA?

Finally, your repeating point seems to be that BCA is for the pool players, not just for the league operators. It seems to me, that the strength of the APA is that the league operators have a vested interest in keeping the league going. Without the financial incentive, why would anyone put the time in to make a league work? BCA does not have franchises; why not?

The APA model seems to work in financial terms. The frustration is that the handicap system invites sandbagging and the rules favor the lower skilled players (table not open after ball in on break in 8 ball - no push in 9 ball - no call shot in 8 ball)

If we could combine the orginization of the APA with the rules and format of BCA, I think we would have a winner. JMHO
 
Whoa wait a sec here, I thought the BCA didn't have a handicapped league. 8-ball/9-ball?? No handicaps?? Play straight up? On what size tables? Could someone please explain because if that's so, I'd be interested in starting a BCA league here in the SO NJ area.

Barbara
 
Gregg said:
No, actually, you don't know, unless you are corporate, or work for the APA league offices.

Read here on "How your handicap is calculated" Good luck finding any formulas, or any valuable information, for that matter.

Fred is right, it has nothing to do with the handicap level of the person you play against. As a Math major and a numbers and puzzle addict, I was fascinated by the algorithm, and after some simple Internet research, I wrote the entire algorithm in Excel, and used it for many seasons. The margin of error on my spreadsheet was around 0.1 of their actual SL. This is because you never know the exact order LOs will enter scores, and remember they have to average out both sheets. Once a player got to something like X.85, I'd throw him against the toughest opponents. If they win, great, they take out the toughest opponent on the other team. If they lose, they stay an X, and we lost a game we didn't really expect to win. I never ever told a player to lose.

The method is actually pretty smart. The problem is the SL23 rule. It is way too low. If you practice you are punished. It is designed to get break up teams and split them into two. We qualified for Vegas. Our 4 wins in about 4 innings thanks to an early eight and an eight on the break, he's a 5 and we can't field a team. In fact, he refused to play so wouldn't get an NLA. Although we won three matches, we eventually "lost" 2-2.
 
KingCarom,

I am in the same boat as you, except i have only been in the APA for 2 1/2 sessions.

I played one session of 9ball and hated it. And then switched to 8ball, and liked it in the beginning, but now i sucks big donkey dick.

I see players sandbag and nobody does anything about it, even the other teams.

The players who do put forth 100% are normally the newbies or the people who probably wont ever be over a SL 3, 4 or 5. Which is where the APA strives. But i have seen people who are 3's or 4's who sandbag so badly and nothing ever gets done about it.

Another about the handicap system is, its suppose to level the playing field, yet when i became a SL6 after only 5 matches in my first session, and since then, in 12 matches as a SL6 i have 3wins and 9 loss's and cant beat anyone over a SL4. Yet i havent gone down.

We had a guy come in last week for leagues bragging about how he went from a SL6 to a SL5 after winning a match WTF!!!!! and of course he is on the APA board for the league.

Anyone who is on the APA league board seems to never move up, and they always seem to go down after a couple loss's.

Now someone told me the reason 3's & 4's go up n down so much is because it makes it equal for them and that moving a 5 , 6, or 7 down one notch would make it unfair for anyone they are playing against. Well if a person cant win against anyone at that current ranking shouldnt they go down?

But i just dont care anymore and plan on leaving the APA after this session and just playing tournaments.

dave
 
This is my first session in the APA. A friend of mine played in the Busch League years ago and quit because of lack of money at the end of the season. He said that he never got back a penny.

I am in it right now just to get some playing time in against different opponents. I look at it as a cost of playing and entertainment.

Where does the money go?

Has any of you got any money back?
 
I have played APA several years ago and after a very long break just started playing BCA this year. Which I like much better as its simpler.

BCA does not have a handicapping system. With the exception being the national tournament, if you place high you will be placed in the masters catagory in future national events.

I do have to admit I dont understand the BCA's financial aspect of it as most of the money goes back to the players, I don't think the regional coordinator gets that much. I have heard of APA operators making close to 100k a year.

Now what I dont think will fly is the new (BCA??) Cujoroho tournaments(although I wish it luck).
The local league cordinator CANNOT play in the league, go figure....

Slo
 
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