Grady/Contract Fiasco/WPBA

[bigfoot]

Grady/Contract Fiasco/WPBA/Whats your Response??

Grady, Mike the AZ billiards house man responded that both contracts (UPA and WPBA ) are identical, now if this is true which seems credible, does this mean that the WPBA also have a contract fiasco concern with you?? BF

 

[titanic]

What Gives???

IT IS NOT MY INTENTION OR AIM TO DEFEND GRADY MATHEWS OR ANYONE WHO POSTS AN OPINION ON THESE FORUMS. MY QUESTION IS WHY DO PEOPLE IMMEDIATELY BECOME PHILADELPHIA LAWYERS AND ATTACK THE PERSON MAKING AND STATING HIS OPINION.
YOU OFFER NOTHING IN THE WAY OF AN EDUCATED OPINION YOURSELF YOU MERELY ATTACK GRADY FOR BEING OUTSPOKEN.
MAYBE WHEN YOU HAVE BEEN AROUND AS LONG AS GRADY AND SEEN SOME OF THE DISASTERS THIS GAME HAS GONE THROUGH YOU MAY NOT BE SO QUICK TO JUDGE.
AT LEAST OFFER SOME PROOF AS TO THE VALIDITY OF YOUR STATEMENT AND POSITION.
I DO NOT THINK YOU HAVE A VALID POSITION JUST THE ABILITY TO ATTACK SOMEONE WHO HAS ONE.
YOU LEARN FROM PAST MISTAKES AND I AM QUITE CONFIDENT IF YOU WERE TO SIT DOWN WITH GRADY ON A ONE ON ONE HE COULD ENLIGHTEN YOU ON THE HISTORY OFTHE VARIOUS GROUPS WHO HISTORICALLY HAVE KEPT POOL FROM BEING IN IT'S PROPER PLACE IN HISTORY AND IN THE SPORTING WORLD DUE TO PEOPLE INTERESTED IN THEIR WELFARE AND NOT THE WELFARE OF THE PEOPLE.
IF YOU FINISH IN LAST PLACE IN BOWLING OR GOLF YOU AT LEAST MAKE ENOUGH MONEY TO STAY ON TOUR.THEY HAVE MEDICAL COVERAGE,RETIREMENT FUNDS,AND NO ONE TELLS THEM ANYTHING ABOUT PERSONAL ADVERTISING INCOME.
INSTEAD OF TAKING THE ATTITUDE YOU HAVE, WHY NOT ASK GRADY HOW YOU CAN HELP HIMMAKE POOL BETTER FOR EVERYONE CONCERNED?

 

[cardiac kid]

Grady

Titanic,

You seem to respect Grady an awful lot. I'm sure you have good reasons. Grady, like so many other well known pool hustlers, earned his reputation. Both good and bad! He has his opinions. Some of them certainly are controversial. He sometimes picks a poor venue to discuss them (during play at the DCC on the mic). Personally, I'm glad Grady is around. Just like Ronnie Allen and Jimmy Mataya. The game needs some color!

As they say in all the ads for financial investments, past success is no guarantee of future success. Perhaps continuing to look to and retreading the past is the wrong thing to do. If Grady put some of his energy into helping pool in a different direction, I would not question his intentions or comments. If he really feels the contract and the organization is a disaster, why doesn't he help rework it? I paid my $100 to the UPA. If I'm wrong and the thing flops, at least I tried! Its kind of like the people who don't vote complaining about the way things are. Opinions are like poop shoots, everyone has one.

 

[bigfoot]

Titanic/Here's what gives???

Responses to your questions from you post:

1. Seems like your attacking my opinion/question to the professor.
2. I was not offering an opionion, I was asking a question, does he feel the same way about the WPBA?
3. I have been around as long as Grady.
4. The validity was in the responders, such as Mike from AZ.
5. Historically groups have tried to further the sport, and I think the welfare of the game/sport is "way" more important than "welfare of the people".
6. If I was finishing last in bowling tournaments I don't know if one could pay the nut, I am not interested in helping grady, I am more concerned about the sport than "any" one individual.

7. And why hasn't grady responded to my question, you think there is a possibility he didn't have all the facts, and was shooting another volley at Mr. Williams, for what ???????????"TO HELP HIM MAKE POOL BETTER FOR EVERYONE CONCERNED", I gotta go water the lawn. BF

 

[Rickw]

Everyone seems to be looking at pool from the perspective of the current players and the situation the game is in now. I think we need to look at our future players and how to get them started in the right path. Think about it, how does a young player get acquainted with the game? If a young player shows promise, what do they have to do to stay in the game and play the necessary amount of time to get better? The answers to these questions are not good. A young promising player has to hustle if they want to make pool a career. That being said, what are the traits a good hustler needs to survive in pool? They need to be able to get someone to play them that cannot play as well as they do because if they don't, they won't be eating that night. This does not help build character in a young person. I'm not saying all pool hustlers are bad. I'm just saying that the life they live does not help to mold them into something good. In spite of this, to their credit, there are some real decent pros out there and they have my utmost respect.

Given all that, it is going to be extremely difficult to get a bunch of pool players to cooperate in an organization such as the UPA or any other association. I would think most players are going to be distrustful of anyone trying to organize them. Young players need to have a better way to come up through ranks in pool. We need to have some way for our prospective players to support themselves in this game without having to resort to hustling. JMHO.

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi Rick,

Great observation on the youth of today!

It appears that pool is on a parallel with union organization in the 1800's. No one trusted how one persons support could influence the large companies. After many years of doubt, the unions played a rather large part in the US as we see it today. Its taking that first step into a swimming pool. Really tough to do! Your toes may get uncomfortable the first time in. The rest of the experience may be great! I want to try it regardless.

 

[BHAMKID]

grady needs to do something?????

have you morons not heard of all the promoting that Grady does?? how many other poeple put on the amount of tournaments.. and he is the person that has come up with this winner take all ring game that has caught on so well... and is one of the nicer guys associated with this game there is.. so why dont you guys back off and show the man some respect? cause he certainly deserves it.

and one more thing...
i understand that they are trying to have a unified mens pro tour. but making poeple play in your tournaments and not allowing them to go to other tournaments is stupid in my oppinion... in a 200 player field... what does 55th place pay...??? say with a 100 dollar or 50 dollar entry fee.. (that most of the time the pro's have poeple that put them in the tourny) probably 200 $ at the most... can you live on 200$ a week?? and pay your bills?? and support your family??? no... thats why poeple have to go out and "hustle" but its not hustling if you match up fair and play a good game.. then its called gambling... i thought there was some pool players on this forum.. but apparently there is nothing but a bunch of poeple that just enjoy arguing... i dont know.. maybe i was tought the old way of the game and thats why i agree with Grady... or maybe i just think that since it is Grady and he has forgotten more about this GAME and the promotion of this GAME than any of us could wish to learn over 2 lifetimes... so i say carry on Grady... i agree there should be anyone that controls all the pool players in the world and says when they can go where.. and if they can play in this tournament.. or that tournament... thats why this was made into a FREE COUNTRY.. so everyone could do as they please under certain laws of course... if i was them i would tell CW to shove that contract... but thats just my oppinion.. and they are just like (|) holes... everyone has one.. sorry for being so long winded...

 

[manlyshot]

You seem to respect Grady an awful lot. I'm sure you have good reasons. Grady, like so many other well known pool hustlers, earned his reputation. Both good and bad! He has his opinions.

Your statement "Grady, like so many other well known pool hustlers" is somewhat misleading, Cardiac Kid, to some of the readers on this forum.

Grady "The Professor" Mathews owns quite a few pocket billiards championship titles, promotes tournaments, holds clinics and exhibitions around the country, previously and currently is a contributing author to pool magazines, has published a book or two and instructional videotapes, and even to this day, he is requested to provide his expertise to numerous projects, most recently the Derby City Classic Ring Game. His accomplishments, different than your accomplishments, Cardiac Kid, make his opinion valuable IMO.

Of course, you may have your opinion, but don't shoot the messenger, not this one at least.

ManlyShot

 

[cardiac kid]

Hey bhamkid,

Who is not showing respect to Grady. Are we not allowed to question? Was Grady not allowed to post his diatribe against the UPA contract? As I mentioned in my earlier post, Grady has done some very questionable things in the past. Why should we grant him carte blanche? He is one voice amongst many. The ring game has been around for many, many years. Pushing it to the forefront maybe Grady's idea. He also may be one of the nicest guys in pool now. He may also promote pool events. That does not put him or his motives above question.

 

[manlyshot]

Who is not showing respect to Grady?

You are not showing respect to Grady Mathews, and I question your motives, sir.

ManlyShot

 

[BHAMKID]

who are you?

who are you to question what he has done? i want some credentials for yourself and then you can question what he is saying... until then anything you say in regards to what he has said will be taken with a grain of salt to me.. now i dont mean to be rude or judgmental on you.... thats not what im saying.. im just saying that he (grady) is a legend of this fine sport that we are all involved in and for someone to disrespect him and his stand on it like he is a everyday player is rediculous... im just meerly stating the fact that he has done more for this game in the past 5 years than anyone i know as manlyshot pointed out above... he may be wrong.. i dont know.. i dont have the facts in front of me and im willing to bet that you dont either... there is three sides to every story.. your side.. my side.. and the truth.. because 999 times out of 1000 both parties are going to make themselves look better... not saying that Grady is stretching the truth... but i dont have all the information in front of me to make my own decision... so i would trust what Grady has to say over just about anyone...

 

[manlyshot]

i dont have all the information in front of me to make my own decision... so i would trust what Grady has to say over just about anyone...

Well said, BhamKid!

ManlyShot

 

[Rickw]

Bhamkid

You said morons, so I'm assuming you're lumping me in. I have nothing but admiration and respect for Grady. I wasn't being critical of Grady, I just think it would be nice if there was a better way to get our youth into this game and keep them there in a more positive environment. I believe that being forced to scuffle and gamble in order to stay in the game is a bad way to develop character in our young people. I don't see how you can make it in this game, especially coming up, without hustling (which is different than gambling). Not many players are lucky enough to be so talented that they can make a living on this game right off the bat and gamble straight up with anyone. At least that hasn't been my observation and I've seen a few players in my 53 years.

have you morons not heard of all the promoting that Grady does?? how many other poeple put on the amount of tournaments.. and he is the person that has come up with this winner take all ring game that has caught on so well... and is one of the nicer guys associated with this game there is.. so why dont you guys back off and show the man some respect? cause he certainly deserves it.

and one more thing...
i understand that they are trying to have a unified mens pro tour. but making poeple play in your tournaments and not allowing them to go to other tournaments is stupid in my oppinion... in a 200 player field... what does 55th place pay...??? say with a 100 dollar or 50 dollar entry fee.. (that most of the time the pro's have poeple that put them in the tourny) probably 200 $ at the most... can you live on 200$ a week?? and pay your bills?? and support your family??? no... thats why poeple have to go out and "hustle" but its not hustling if you match up fair and play a good game.. then its called gambling... i thought there was some pool players on this forum.. but apparently there is nothing but a bunch of poeple that just enjoy arguing... i dont know.. maybe i was tought the old way of the game and thats why i agree with Grady... or maybe i just think that since it is Grady and he has forgotten more about this GAME and the promotion of this GAME than any of us could wish to learn over 2 lifetimes... so i say carry on Grady... i agree there should be anyone that controls all the pool players in the world and says when they can go where.. and if they can play in this tournament.. or that tournament... thats why this was made into a FREE COUNTRY.. so everyone could do as they please under certain laws of course... if i was them i would tell CW to shove that contract... but thats just my oppinion.. and they are just like (|) holes... everyone has one.. sorry for being so long winded...

 

[bruin70]

Grady, Mike the AZ billiards house man responded that both contracts (UPA and WPBA ) are identical, now if this is true which seems credible, does this mean that the WPBA also have a contract fiasco concern with you?? BF

i don't know how the contracts read. i do know that the women's contract is very strict.

but what works for one doesn't have to work for the other, and if the men won't cooperate as the women do, then in that sense, the contract is a fiasco for the men.

while the women can step back and see that everyONE benefits from the whole, the men can't,,,or won't. the solution may be as simple as(or maybe NOT so simple) if the upa were a million dollar tour. money talks, and the men would shape up and get with the program. but there is no big money backing and none on the horizon.

it's a chicken/egg thing. can the men unite and present a viable product to sponsors, or must there be a lure(sponsored money) first. i happen to think the first,,,,however, pool's bad image and demographics prevents anything from happening, so it's a catch 22.

since pool's image has been as it is since the turn of the 20th century, if not earlier, there's no reason to think it will ever change. trying to change pool's image is like trying to change your dna. pool needs a quick fix to get this derailed train back on track. that means money. because even if the men do cooperate, it will not guarantee better sponsorship. i don't see any non-pool sponsors lining up to sponsor the women.

and since the upa looks to be in the same position as they were in the beginning, they and their contract are a fiasco.

what a pool organization DOESN'T need are pool players running it. if i were a business man, i don't want to talk business with williams OR matthews.

 

[bigfoot]

Bruin/good points

since pool's image has been as it is since the turn of the 20th century, if not earlier, there's no reason to think it will ever change. trying to change pool's image is like trying to change your dna. pool needs a quick fix to get this derailed train back on track. that means money.

You know too, the BCA is pulling away from players, the leagues are are trying to be sold as we speak, I feel confident the pro event that piggy backs the May event at the Riv/Vegas will be a thing of the past too. Its sad, when your industry/BCA will have/pay Jerry Orbach to attend the Hall of Fame banquet, lower the prices of the venue so they are guaranteed good attendance (to make them look good), and yet do nothing to promote the sport/game, its a catch 22 for them also. Since they are not willing to create the sport they will never reach their full profit potential. "they (the industry/mfg/BCA board) pick the fruit but will not water or fertilize the tree" (the sport) The reason is most board members are on the board to better their own agenda, you can qoute me on that. BF "the rebel"

 

[Rickw]

Bruin

Good post Bruin. I don't think you and I are far apart in our opinions on pool, especially the mens' portion of it. The short hustle is what a lot of players had to learn to make it to where they are today and that isn't going to stead them well trying to organize a mens' tour.

i don't know how the contracts read. i do know that the women's contract is very strict.

but what works for one doesn't have to work for the other, and if the men won't cooperate as the women do, then in that sense, the contract is a fiasco for the men.

while the women can step back and see that everyONE benefits from the whole, the men can't,,,or won't. the solution may be as simple as(or maybe NOT so simple) if the upa were a million dollar tour. money talks, and the men would shape up and get with the program. but there is no big money backing and none on the horizon.

it's a chicken/egg thing. can the men unite and present a viable product to sponsors, or must there be a lure(sponsored money) first. i happen to think the first,,,,however, pool's bad image and demographics prevents anything from happening, so it's a catch 22.

since pool's image has been as it is since the turn of the 20th century, if not earlier, there's no reason to think it will ever change. trying to change pool's image is like trying to change your dna. pool needs a quick fix to get this derailed train back on track. that means money. because even if the men do cooperate, it will not guarantee better sponsorship. i don't see any non-pool sponsors lining up to sponsor the women.

and since the upa looks to be in the same position as they were in the beginning, they and their contract are a fiasco.

what a pool organization DOESN'T need are pool players running it. if i were a business man, i don't want to talk business with williams OR matthews.

 

[senor]

On a lighter note...

Funny story about Grady...A good friend of mine who has been around the scene for many years was playing Grady one time, a short race for whatever. Well the match came down to the wire, and with Grady working on a runout for the cash, he ended up straight in on the bottom rail, with the two remaining balls he needed in the middle of the table. Well, Grady elevates the cue (I'm sure most of you have seen this shot) so as to pocket the ball and get some spin action on the cue ball to throw it above the two remaining balls for the win. The object ball rattled and went to rest in front of his opponent's pocket for the win. Grady paid off and left in disgust. Now the funny part...Grady used to carry around a book with diagrams of shots he had drawn up. My friend held onto it and brought it the next day for Grady. When he saw Grady he said ~~ Hey Grady, I saw that shot you tried yesterday drawn up in your book ~~ to which Gray replied ~~ Yeah, I should put a note next to it that says Never Shoot for Case Money!

 

[bigfoot]

Without our sport having a top/organized pro tour, and a bottom youth/organized too, why would any one set sail with out a destination? One goes to college to work in their field to constantly grow. In the good old USA there is no real top to shoot/dream for, why do you think CJ Wiley, Roger Griffis, John Kucharo have disappeared? Hell even Rempe didn't play at Valley Forge (his lives in the area). Now maybe he was sick, but of what?? I don't know of many pros that have children who would want them to walk in their shoes either.


I'm being sarcastic here, this paragraph only..../ One thing is for sure, the BCA "the governing body of pool" (that statement of theirs makes me sick) is sure doing a great job to promote the sport, don't ya think.?? BF

 

[cardiac kid]

"who are you to question what he has done?"

Hey Bham,

Grady questions things I believe. You agree with Grady. I have the right to ask on this public forum. Just as Grady (or you) has the right to post your questions. Whether you take my comments with a grain of salt or not. Grady is just a man. An excellent pool player. A lover of the game. No more. I claim nothing more than to love the game. Grady certainly has achieved more than I.

"now i dont mean to be rude or judgmental on you.... thats not what im saying.. im just saying that he (grady) is a legend of this fine sport that we are all involved in and for someone to disrespect him and his stand on it like he is a everyday player is rediculous"

Regardless of what he has done for the game, he is still just a man with an opinion. What constitutes disrepect? Must I agree with everything both he and you say not to be disrepectful to Grady? We are talking opinions here. I prefer to try to change things from within the organization. Grady and others have chosen to complain from the outside. Horror of horrors, what if Charlie Williams was right and Grady and others were wrong (or vice versa).

"im just meerly stating the fact that he has done more for this game in the past 5 years than anyone i know as manlyshot pointed out above... he may be wrong.. i dont know.. i dont have the facts in front of me and im willing to bet that you dont either"

How about Greg Sullivan, Mark Griffin, Tony Annigoni, Charlie Williams, Allen Hopkins, Mike Zuglan and others. Regardless of who has done the "most", the volume of criticism of the UPA and it's player relations is rediculous. Most of it comes from people not wanting to be directly involved. Just sitting on the sidelines and bitching. Worse, having nothing to contribute but hateful talk. You are right. I also do not have all the facts in front of me.

"there is three sides to every story.. your side.. my side.. and the truth"

How true, how true.

QUOTE]

 

[cardiac kid]

Funny story about Grady...A good friend of mine who has been around the scene for many years was playing Grady one time, a short race for whatever. Well the match came down to the wire, and with Grady working on a runout for the cash, he ended up straight in on the bottom rail, with the two remaining balls he needed in the middle of the table. Well, Grady elevates the cue (I'm sure most of you have seen this shot) so as to pocket the ball and get some spin action on the cue ball to throw it above the two remaining balls for the win. The object ball rattled and went to rest in front of his opponent's pocket for the win. Grady paid off and left in disgust. Now the funny part...Grady used to carry around a book with diagrams of shots he had drawn up. My friend held onto it and brought it the next day for Grady. When he saw Grady he said ~~ Hey Grady, I saw that shot you tried yesterday drawn up in your book ~~ to which Gray replied ~~ Yeah, I should put a note next to it that says Never Shoot for Case Money!

Hey Senor,

What a great post! Thanks for the levity.