Sad to see. Perhaps this would have happened eventually no matter what- I think HT had been struggling financially for a while.
Does anybody know if the current owner (don't know his name) has any plans to reopen somewhere else?
Hard Times Bellflower
- Thread starter Runner
- Start date
Sad to see. Perhaps this would have happened eventually no matter what- I think HT had been struggling financially for a while.
Does anybody know if the current owner (don't know his name) has any plans to reopen somewhere else?
To put things into perspective, in Commercial Real Estate, something being on the open market For Lease does not always mean the existing tenant is done. Just that the Landlord is shopping around, as the existing Lease is expired or nearing expiration. Sometimes these actions are bargaining leverage - as it costs the Landlord 0 to do.
This building was sold 3 years ago with the intention to re-develop. That could have been, and may still be, re-development with Hard Times continuing on as a tenant. Probably not the case, but there is nothing definitive until there is...
The current Commercial Real Estate market in So. Cal is in a really "iffy" stage right now. Owner's/Landlords are holding on to values, yet negotiating "terms" with tenant's in good standing to help out while they are forced to close.
That entire block, and stretch of Bellflower Blvd for that matter, Hard Times sits on has been a bit of a blight for decades. Not sure that will change much right now; could be good for HT. We'll see.
I loved that pool room many, many years ago; it's not been the way I loved it for a long time. I even had the honor of being the House Pro there for a time. It'll be great to see it survive in one form or another, but it will never be what it was in the 80's & 90's again; that was Chuck!
The situation you explained is correct, too bad the owner of the Hard Times site did not buy the property, then as owners. They would not be have to deal with a landlord.
Know the area well where hard time is, it not Beverly Hills, let's just say it on the wrong side of track.
Remember when North Hollywood Billiards close years ago. People were also shocked, but the build was a rental. Landlord found new tenant to pay more rent, and the historic pool room was history.
Not bad, considering it's only been 4 weeks since they sawed through my chest.
Doc says I'm recovering nicely.
Thanks for asking,
pj
chgo
Good to hear
Well maybe some brave soul will buy the tables, and relocate to a new location, and relaunch the business, as New Hard Times.
Name optional.
Over 30 years of glorious billiard history has come to an end. Hard Times Billiards was southern California's hardcore pool players headquarters. No other pool-hall came close to the history and true pure love of billiards. They had no alcohol, no fancy sports TVs. What did they have? They had hardcore tables. Snooker tables, Heated Carom Tables, and 25 tough gold-crown 9-foot tables, and ten of them set impossibly tight for the best players in the world to compete on, complete with arena seating. That's right; one went there to see the best players, like in any other major sports arena.
Hard times was voted the Best pool room in America by Billiards Digest in 1996. New York had Amsterdam Billiards, California, had Hard-times. First opened by the Markulis family and subsequently sold to the Thomason family. Then lastly, to Edie. Hard Times served pocket-billiards for several generations. The best players came here not only from Los Angeles, not only from the state, no, they came from all over the world. Where else is this to happen?
Every day up and coming players would come from all over, to lose to the best in tournaments, or to play in ridiculously high-stake money games. Hard-times was a pro player's top college. This pro-college turned out future billiard stars and billiard pros like Oscar Domingues, who now owns and runs the sister Hard Times, Sacramento, now the last temple of billiards left in California. New York gave us the Jeanette Lee, and Hard Times gave us Mary Avina. POV pool media was also was born at Hard-times. A temple of pool gave us an endless list of other great and notable, but lesser-known players such as; Andy Chen, Box Patterson, Jay Helfert, Jun Almoite, Jenny Lee, Dave Hemmah, Melissa Herndon, Brook Thomason, Ken Thomason, Jerry Matchin, Robin Bell Dodson, Wayne Pullen, Frank Almanza, Chris Robinson, Ruben Bautista, Sal Butera, James Woods, Butch Barba, Mark Barba, Catfish, and Hawaiian Jimmy all that become somebodies the tough way, getting their ass kicked. Wagering big and small, no participation trophies here. You win, you lose, get over it. Where are the kid and teenager future pros players going to go? Where is there another monthly tournament drawing over 90 players plus? One that had been doing so for over 30 years. Huge yearly purse tournaments that attracted the best players from all over the world year in year out. Where else?
The tournaments were, though, local champions when to Hard-Times to lose. Why because being the best in one town or county or even a state was not good enough, not special. For the big tournaments, you had to beat Efren Reyes, Francisco Bustamante, Keith Mccready, Nick Varner, Mike Seigel, Mika Immonen, Alex Pagulayan, Earl Strickland, Buddy Hall, Dennis Orcollo, and Shane Van Boening. In other words, the best in the world. Even the weekly tournament would draw 4 to 5 pros or more on average. For close to no money, you had to beat the likes of Ernesto Domingez, Morro Paez, Bernando 'King Kong' and Jose Parica. Where else can you upstairs and have your cue worked on or made by 'Little AL'?
These are sad times for billiards, Hard-times was a magical place for the hardcore billiard player, and I'm angry. Maybe I'm a dinosaur of times past. I don't love easy tiny tables, and I love playing for money. Still, it feels like little by little, the heart of American billiards is being replaced by easy, small tables and handicapped league systems. Finding a money game is harder and harder. I don't dislike leagues but to me. To me, pool should not be easy or safe. I like my pool serious, and we just lost another temple of pool. To quote the great Barbara Lee, "Pool is not dead" Yes, your right Barbara, pool is not dead, but you know what? We are down, and it hurts. It really does hurt.
http://www.thebilliardnews.com
Leagues are killing this game.
Hard times was voted the Best pool room in America by Billiards Digest in 1996. New York had Amsterdam Billiards, California, had Hard-times. First opened by the Markulis family and subsequently sold to the Thomason family. Then lastly, to Edie. Hard Times served pocket-billiards for several generations. The best players came here not only from Los Angeles, not only from the state, no, they came from all over the world. Where else is this to happen?
Every day up and coming players would come from all over, to lose to the best in tournaments, or to play in ridiculously high-stake money games. Hard-times was a pro player's top college. This pro-college turned out future billiard stars and billiard pros like Oscar Domingues, who now owns and runs the sister Hard Times, Sacramento, now the last temple of billiards left in California. New York gave us the Jeanette Lee, and Hard Times gave us Mary Avina. POV pool media was also was born at Hard-times. A temple of pool gave us an endless list of other great and notable, but lesser-known players such as; Andy Chen, Box Patterson, Jay Helfert, Jun Almoite, Jenny Lee, Dave Hemmah, Melissa Herndon, Brook Thomason, Ken Thomason, Jerry Matchin, Robin Bell Dodson, Wayne Pullen, Frank Almanza, Chris Robinson, Ruben Bautista, Sal Butera, James Woods, Butch Barba, Mark Barba, Catfish, and Hawaiian Jimmy all that become somebodies the tough way, getting their ass kicked. Wagering big and small, no participation trophies here. You win, you lose, get over it. Where are the kid and teenager future pros players going to go? Where is there another monthly tournament drawing over 90 players plus? One that had been doing so for over 30 years. Huge yearly purse tournaments that attracted the best players from all over the world year in year out. Where else?
The tournaments were, though, local champions when to Hard-Times to lose. Why because being the best in one town or county or even a state was not good enough, not special. For the big tournaments, you had to beat Efren Reyes, Francisco Bustamante, Keith Mccready, Nick Varner, Mike Seigel, Mika Immonen, Alex Pagulayan, Earl Strickland, Buddy Hall, Dennis Orcollo, and Shane Van Boening. In other words, the best in the world. Even the weekly tournament would draw 4 to 5 pros or more on average. For close to no money, you had to beat the likes of Ernesto Domingez, Morro Paez, Bernando 'King Kong' and Jose Parica. Where else can you upstairs and have your cue worked on or made by 'Little AL'?
These are sad times for billiards, Hard-times was a magical place for the hardcore billiard player, and I'm angry. Maybe I'm a dinosaur of times past. I don't love easy tiny tables, and I love playing for money. Still, it feels like little by little, the heart of American billiards is being replaced by easy, small tables and handicapped league systems. Finding a money game is harder and harder. I don't dislike leagues but to me. To me, pool should not be easy or safe. I like my pool serious, and we just lost another temple of pool. To quote the great Barbara Lee, "Pool is not dead" Yes, your right Barbara, pool is not dead, but you know what? We are down, and it hurts. It really does hurt.
http://www.thebilliardnews.com
Leagues are killing this game.
I wondered why they didn't serve liquor.
I understand that everyone wants to be like Ames, (no pinball, no jukebox, no bar, just pool....this is Ames mister)
You got to evolve or die....
A poolroom I used to go to, the owner was pool player first, but the cherry master machines paid for all of it. The pool room made little money. In a lot of rooms, the leagues pays all the bills, but folks say how they are killing pool.
Sad never the less,
Ken
Tables are a dime a dozen. Literally. People will buy them for home tables.
Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
City wouldn’t grant them a beer and wine license because they are next to a church. This is what I understand. I could care less about the tables. It was the layout and history/action that made hard times.
Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
Well, it's quite simple, really. Handicapped leagues discourage improvement. People do not look up to the best players anymore, and no longer care who the best players are. They don't know the names of even the top ten in the world let alone the room they play at, because to them it's immaterial. Being the best is no longer something to aspire to, it has no status, it's a hindrance to participation in leagues. That is it. You need people to try to be the best, to practise every night and to play in tournaments, to keep a serious room like HT alive. You need people to buy lessons from better players, buy stuff in poolrooms, play in in house tournaments, in order to keep the pool room economy flowing.
Leagues have nothing really to do with pool. Their purpose is not to promote pool excellence, it's just to mildly entertain working stiffs on a weeknight, and make money for the league operator. And for said working stiffs, it's a way to compete without really practising, on tables that are not challenging their pocketing skills. To win at handicapped leagues you need to sandbag or stay bad at pool, be just barely better than your rating at times. Improving means your team is in trouble. How is that promoting pool?
Now, if the poolroom has a liquour licence, then the picture is slightly more nuanced, since the leagues will bring in some money by buying beer. Still, in the long run, the handicapped leagues will undermine the poolroom hierarchy and the status of better players. Instead, sandbagging and reading the rulebook like the Devil reads the bible is encouraged. If you read the league threads on here, it's more like a redneck law school than a pool related thread, most of the time. Some of those people should really have gone to lawschool IMO, maybe they have? The poolroom will have to adapt to beer drinkers, rather than players, expanding their beer selections, sitting space, buying glaring audio systems etc. Out with the 9 footers and in with 7 footers. Just cram them in so nobody can move around the table without bumping into others. What serious player is going to put up with that long term? An inferno of crappy music, flying elbows and people spilling beer all over the place. Slowly the talent and equipment quality will get depleted.
Last edited:
Thanks for posting that, Rex. I feel like we should have some kind of funeral.
I wonder what they're doing with all those tables?
I hope the owner is looking for another place .
You would think rent is going to be a lot lower after this freaking disaster .
Hey what's that cue in your avatar? Very unusual looking, very cool.
Well, the people who used to frequent this kind of place and engage in high stakes action and tournaments obviously don’t any more, and it’s for a variety of reasons ranging from more gambling options, changing tastes, high real estate costs leading to more expensive table time, lack of pool on TV, economic changes, more entertainment options in general, and so on. You can go ahead and blame Tuesday night bangers if it makes you feel better, though.
What you are really lamenting is the fact that people can’t make money playing pool any more, which is indeed a huge problem for the game in the long run.
Last edited:
Having designed and run pool halls I think there is a certain romance to having all the huge names and best players in your pool hall, but the "players" do not really make a pool hall successful. Pool halls are successful because you get normal people, casual players, beginners and the like to come play regularly. Hard Times had the atmosphere that would get a lot of decent players to go and rub elbows with those guys but I seriously doubt they were the core of being profitable. Expecting a pool hall to be successful today without other entertainment amenities like alocohol (even just beer and wine) TVs and decent food is just completely unrealistic. In my experience we made almost nothing from the "players" who would drink water or coffee all day and still expect discounts on table time.
I want to thank Daniel, for putting together that fantastic video eulogy regarding the legendary room Hard Times.
Two folks he didn't mention would be, " One Pocket " Richard and Tang Ho. It seems hard times has befallen the Southern California pool scene.
Used to love going down there and then walking across the parking lot and eating a steak dinner at Chris & Pitts. Eating at C&P was like walking back into the 1950s.
We all should have our flags at half mast.
Two folks he didn't mention would be, " One Pocket " Richard and Tang Ho. It seems hard times has befallen the Southern California pool scene.
Used to love going down there and then walking across the parking lot and eating a steak dinner at Chris & Pitts. Eating at C&P was like walking back into the 1950s.
We all should have our flags at half mast.