Has Simonis 760 changed over the years?

iusedtoberich

iusedtoberich

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Has Simonis 760 cloth changed over the years? Or is there more than one "760", such as a special HR (Humidity Resistant) version?

We had a discussion at the local room last night, and some of the players were insisting that 760 from years ago, played much faster than the 760 currently on our tables. The environmental conditions are the same, because we are talking abut the same room. The cloth installer is the same. The tables are different: GC4's today, vs GC3's years ago.

This is in context to playing one pocket type shots, specifically 4 rail banks, where the slowness of our current 760 just makes some shots not recommended. But in the past, these 4 railers were good shots to take.

Any information is appreciated on if 760 has changed over the years, or if there are several flavors of it available, that could possibly account for the perceived difference in speed.
 
Back when I started recovering pool tables in 1983 I pioneered the Simonis 760 cloth in the bar industry in Washington state. It had a 70/30 blend of wool/nylon back then as well. I believe Simonis has played around with the tread count per square inch over the years because one of my biggest complaints back then was the ball burnish marks that within 90 days or so was real predominant. I had to do a lot of explaining to bar owners that there was a deferents between cosmetic wear and actual cloth wear. Nevertheless, this opened the door to Championship tour edition 3030 because the cloth for the same time period of Simonis, looked better to the bar owners so once they switched to Championship, I could never get them to switch back to Simonis 860, which doesn't mark up nearly as much as 760 does. So, to answer your question, I think the 760 today is pretty much the same as it was when I started recovering tables 23 years ago, so if your banks today seem different in distance, I'd be looking at the rubber on your tables...today vs back when.

Glen
 
Thank you for the response. Just for confirmation, there is only one blend of 760 available today, correct?

Next question since you mentioned the rail rubber: Is there a difference in the rail rubber of GC3's new in 1990 vs GC4 rubber new in 2000?

Thanks.
 
The rail cushions on Brunswick's are said to be (by Brunswick) the same blend from over 100 years ago. That's BS... So they are supposed to be the same but they aren't. Maybe same in appearance, brand etc... Their rubber is inconsistent in general. The use of fillers etc. makes for some variance in tolerance, durability etc...
 
iusedtoberich said:
Thank you for the response. Just for confirmation, there is only one blend of 760 available today, correct?

Next question since you mentioned the rail rubber: Is there a difference in the rail rubber of GC3's new in 1990 vs GC4 rubber new in 2000?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Yes, there is only one blend of 760, just as there's only one blend of 860 as well. As far as rail rubber goes, it all depends on who manufactured them back in 1990 vs who's making them for Brunswick today as
Brunswick does not make the rubber themselves. I've replaced rubber on GC 3's that have turned rock hard, Brunswick sent the rubber as a way of fixing the problem, but it wasn't their hands that did the work...lol:rolleyes:

Glen

PS. GC 3 & 4 rails are about 98% the same in their design, if GC 4's were made in 1990 at the same time as GC 3's they'd have played the same...at the same time frame. I'd still consider the variables of today...the rubber, the players, and the memories....LMAO I couldn't remember how a table played today...back in 1990. :D
 
When it come's to cushions they all have fillers in them.Cushions start from 100% gum rubber filler's haft to be added to keep the gummer rubber from hardening.Clay was added to cushions in the beginning to help form the cushions.Some claim Brunswick still uses clay.Not being the case they now use silicone fillers like Accufast and all the others.So there is no such thing as 100% gum rubber cushions.
 
realkingcobra said:
Back when I started recovering pool tables in 1983 I pioneered the Simonis 760 cloth in the bar industry in Washington state. It had a 70/30 blend of wool/nylon back then as well. I believe Simonis has played around with the tread count per square inch over the years because one of my biggest complaints back then was the ball burnish marks that within 90 days or so was real predominant. I had to do a lot of explaining to bar owners that there was a deferents between cosmetic wear and actual cloth wear. Nevertheless, this opened the door to Championship tour edition 3030 because the cloth for the same time period of Simonis, looked better to the bar owners so once they switched to Championship, I could never get them to switch back to Simonis 860, which doesn't mark up nearly as much as 760 does. So, to answer your question, I think the 760 today is pretty much the same as it was when I started recovering tables 23 years ago, so if your banks today seem different in distance, I'd be looking at the rubber on your tables...today vs back when.

Glen
Click to expand...



How do you like the Championship 3030 compared to 860 and Gorina Basalt?
 
pbat2751 said:
How do you like the Championship 3030 compared to 860 and Gorina Basalt?
Click to expand...

Hmmm...a question of personal tastes...lol:rolleyes: Well, the Gorina Basalt cloth does maintain it's speed from the time it's installed until it gets replaced more consistently than any other cloth I've installed for one. I can't comment on the price of it because I install the cloth for room owners who already have the cloth as I don't buy the cloth. I charge labor plus cloth costs, and they buy the cloth, they can barter the cost of the cloth with their money:D ...but not my labor:) ...LOL The Basalt cloth plays faster than the 860 so it's more like 760. The Basalt cloth also shows less back spin marking than Simonis of either blend. The Basalt also has less stretch to work with than the other two cloths we're talking about. It comes in second IMO when it comes to cue ball spin, meaning that it's not to hard for the average player to draw the cue ball back-wards.

Championship 3030 is great when it's first installed, but it's speed will get faster as it's worn. The 3030 also is a little tricky to install because of the stretch, it's more end to end as opposed to side to side, so if it's not installed with the maximum amount of stretch it'll loosen up over time. As far as durability goes, I think it has Simonis and Gorina both beat, but to tell you the truth, I'd rather see it installed on bar box tables as opposed to 9fters. Bar box tables take more of a beating than pool hall 9fters do in general. The 3030 is also a very easy cloth to spin your cue ball on for average players. The price is not to bad, but Championship has been raising their prices it seems like at least once or twice a year. If Simonis goes up in price, you can count on Championship going up as well...even if their costs don't change.

Simonis 860 cloth is very temper-mental to cleaning, meaning if you don't keep the cloth clean it has a tendency to be very slow, hard for the average player to put draw on the cue ball. It' more prone to show miscue marks than the other cloths because it has just a short nap. It also slows down from when it's first installed until it gets replaces. The slow down is more evident in the breaks than anywhere else, as opposed to the first 30 or 40% of it's lifespan...meaning with more play...the slower it gets...until it hits bottom so to speak. If you like to spin your rock off rails and really want to see the spin take, this is for sure the cloth to do it on.

Over all, I guess I'd rate the cloths in two categories.

First: Bar tables- Championship 3030..nothing else.
Pool Room 9fters- Gorina first...IMO, Simonis 860 close second, because of the price, and slowing down effect, and being more prone to nicks in the cloth, which wouldn't be nearly a problem if room owners would keep up with the tips on their cues...and watch out for some of them customers cues as well.

Glen
 
NoBull9 said:
When it comes to cushions they all have fillers in them.Cushions start from 100% gum rubber filler's haft to be added to keep the gummer rubber from hardening.Clay was added to cushions in the beginning to help form the cushions.Some claim Brunswick still uses clay.Not being the case they now use silicone fillers like Accufast and all the others.So there is no such thing as 100% gum rubber cushions.
Click to expand...


You are almost right.... Donny Olhausen spent a lot of hard earned money coming up with a way to develop a cushion for pool that will not break down and remain consistent in playability. One of the primary reasons for cushion deficiency is filler hardening, like you stated. Clay, sand, silica are primary examples of fillers used. Today offshore producer's use silica because of cost and availability. They don't use silicone!

I think it is an insult to mention that Olhausen and Brunswick's etc... all should be created equal.

Olhausen's website...

Not all 100% pure rubber cushions are created equal. Cheap fillers have been used in billiard cushions for years. However, more and more billiard manufactures are following Olhausen's® lead and making cushions from 100% pure gum rubber. But why settle for an imitation when you can have the cushion that has set the standard for accurate, consistent play-Accu-Fast. Of the five grades of rubber available, only the highest grade is good enough for Accu-Fast. This premium-quality rubber is processed with proprietary chemicals and pigments to increase accuracy and produce consistent play. To prevent the tendency of rubber to revert to its natural soft state, Olhausen also uses special "anti-reversion" chemicals. And because of scientific advances in the curing of rubber, canvas control fabric is not needed with Accu-Fast cushions.





For optimum performance Accu-Fast cushions comply to a true K-66 face profile, which has been the standard of the industry for nearly a century. To help protect the environment, they comply with federal air-quality regulations. What's more, Accu-Fast cushions are made in the good ol' U.S.A. (It would be less expensive to import them, but Butch and Donny aren't willing to sacrifice quality in the most important part of your table.) This is why Olhausen has the confidence to offer a Lifetime Warranty on its Accu-Fast cushions. That's right-a lifetime warranty. So the next time someone says, "All pure rubber cushions are the same," you can straighten them out, right?
 
Wait a sec.

I distinctly remember a particular pool room in Delaware that had gold 760, and it played the exact same way that the old 760 played.

THEN, this same room owner got himself a batch of what he said SIMONIS said was 760 HR (humidity resistant)

This stuff once it was on the tables, played differently, and slowed up far more then the original 760 he had on there.
Now the question to ask is if HR did exist or if it didn't. If it did, what did Iwan Simonis DO to the cloth to make that claim, and how would that affect playability.

Based on their website, they don't advertise it any more.

http://www.simoniscloth.com/weave.htm

but i know for a fact, that they guy who used to own the room i am talking about, had LITERATURE that explained it.

The only thing i can think of is that since we're talking about 11 years ago, is that Simonis might have fooled around with concepts like HR, and maybe those types of cloth didn't pan out.

If that were the case, i might be possible that some of this different cloth that is no longer on the market or publicly recognized by Simonis might still be floating around out there with some distributors having it in stock, and dishing it out to customers who basicaly would have no clue cause it ALL says IWAN SIMONIS on it.

THAT type of situation i can see. Otherwise, the only reason i can think of that the cloth is slow, is that the guys who are installing it are a bunch of weaklings and don't stretch it enough.

I know the room iusedtoberich is talking about. EVERY other room in the area that has 760 on it has table beds that play faster, not due to the rubber, but due to the speed of the cloth. Otherwise, it really is a mystery, but as iusedtoberich said, EVERYONE who was in the room from day one, knows of the differences in cloth speed that were talked about.

They just figure that somewhere along the line, either that particular room got a batch of something different, or possibly PIRATED cloth that was made by someone else, but stamped with the Simonis pattern.

Who knows what the real reason is.
 
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So because Donny says he's the only one not using cheap fillers in his cushions everyone most trust that he's telling all the facts.I smell a salesman.I have a 9ft Brunswick SportsKing in my home with the original cushions I purchased 9 Gold Crown 4's 3 Gold Crown 1's and a couple of Gold Crown 3's out of a wharehouse and all the cushions are fine.I've worked with Olhausen 12 years ago.There a fine table.But to say there better then Brunswick or higher quality because there made in America and because Donny say's so is a stretch.Artimus makes the best cushions and they used a clay filler.
 
NoBull9 said:
So because Donny says he's the only one not using cheap fillers in his cushions everyone most trust that he's telling all the facts.I smell a salesman.I have a 9ft Brunswick SportsKing in my home with the original cushions I purchased 9 Gold Crown 4's 3 Gold Crown 1's and a couple of Gold Crown 3's out of a wharehouse and all the cushions are fine.I've worked with Olhausen 12 years ago.There a fine table.But to say there better then Brunswick or higher quality because there made in America and because Donny say's so is a stretch.Artimus makes the best cushions and they used a clay filler.
Click to expand...

Listen here buddy... I'm not trying to sell you anything. I wont waste my time with you until you get your facts right. Just because you own a couple GC's doesnt mean you have the industry by the balls. Are you sure Artemis uses clay filler??? Who told you that? Oh, another guess... Give it up dude
 
Sorry... I don't mean to be a thread hijacker here. NoBull9, If you want to debate Olhausen Vs. Brunswick start a new thread. I was referring to the cushions possibly interfering with the play of 760 Simonis and got off on a tangent w/NoBull9.
 
realkingcobra said:
Hmmm...a question of personal tastes...lol:rolleyes: Well, the Gorina Basalt cloth does maintain it's speed from the time it's installed until it gets replaced more consistently than any other cloth I've installed for one. I can't comment on the price of it because I install the cloth for room owners who already have the cloth as I don't buy the cloth. I charge labor plus cloth costs, and they buy the cloth, they can barter the cost of the cloth with their money:D ...but not my labor:) ...LOL The Basalt cloth plays faster than the 860 so it's more like 760. The Basalt cloth also shows less back spin marking than Simonis of either blend. The Basalt also has less stretch to work with than the other two cloths we're talking about. It comes in second IMO when it comes to cue ball spin, meaning that it's not to hard for the average player to draw the cue ball back-wards.

Championship 3030 is great when it's first installed, but it's speed will get faster as it's worn. The 3030 also is a little tricky to install because of the stretch, it's more end to end as opposed to side to side, so if it's not installed with the maximum amount of stretch it'll loosen up over time. As far as durability goes, I think it has Simonis and Gorina both beat, but to tell you the truth, I'd rather see it installed on bar box tables as opposed to 9fters. Bar box tables take more of a beating than pool hall 9fters do in general. The 3030 is also a very easy cloth to spin your cue ball on for average players. The price is not to bad, but Championship has been raising their prices it seems like at least once or twice a year. If Simonis goes up in price, you can count on Championship going up as well...even if their costs don't change.

Simonis 860 cloth is very temper-mental to cleaning, meaning if you don't keep the cloth clean it has a tendency to be very slow, hard for the average player to put draw on the cue ball. It' more prone to show miscue marks than the other cloths because it has just a short nap. It also slows down from when it's first installed until it gets replaces. The slow down is more evident in the breaks than anywhere else, as opposed to the first 30 or 40% of it's lifespan...meaning with more play...the slower it gets...until it hits bottom so to speak. If you like to spin your rock off rails and really want to see the spin take, this is for sure the cloth to do it on.

Over all, I guess I'd rate the cloths in two categories.

First: Bar tables- Championship 3030..nothing else.
Pool Room 9fters- Gorina first...IMO, Simonis 860 close second, because of the price, and slowing down effect, and being more prone to nicks in the cloth, which wouldn't be nearly a problem if room owners would keep up with the tips on their cues...and watch out for some of them customers cues as well.

Glen
Click to expand...


Thanks!!!!


Someone needs to make this a sticky.
 
iusedtoberich said:
Has Simonis 760 cloth changed over the years? Or is there more than one "760", such as a special HR (Humidity Resistant) version?

We had a discussion at the local room last night, and some of the players were insisting that 760 from years ago, played much faster than the 760 currently on our tables. The environmental conditions are the same, because we are talking abut the same room. The cloth installer is the same. The tables are different: GC4's today, vs GC3's years ago.

This is in context to playing one pocket type shots, specifically 4 rail banks, where the slowness of our current 760 just makes some shots not recommended. But in the past, these 4 railers were good shots to take.

Any information is appreciated on if 760 has changed over the years, or if there are several flavors of it available, that could possibly account for the perceived difference in speed.
Click to expand...

To answer your question with facts, I have been installing Simonis cloths since 1983, starting with the 760 in which at that time, there was no 860.
I pioneered the use of the Simonis cloth in the bar table industry in Washington State, and at one time was one of the largest buyers of Simonis cloth in the country installing about 2,500 yards of Simonis cloth a year. I worked closely with Hank Hayes in testing out new cloths for bar tables other than 760 as a way of possible creating a "Bar table" type of cloth that would be cheaper for bar owners. These test cloths were not were not sold on the market. The test cloths so to speak didn't hold up to my expectations as well as I'd have liked, so Hank and I never went any further with them, as there was, and still is a wide variety of cloths on the market to compete with, so we just kind of faded away from trying to come up with an improved cloth for the bar table industry, deciding that the 760 was the best at the time, and really had no reason to change. The 760 cloth today is still the same blend and weave as it was 23 years ago when I first started using it. And if anyones interested, Simonis only makes 4 different kinds of cloth today, the 860, 760, 300 and 4000 and there's no other secret weaves of cloth out there made by Simonis, take my word for that. If you'd like to verify my facts, call Felice at Simonis and ask her. 1-800-746-6647

Glen
 
mark smith said:
i cannot comment on the 760 but 860 was available in the HR version 5-6 months ago
Click to expand...

860HR is still available.
I'd guess most sellers/buyers have no clue what it is.
 
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