# How aiming got its own zone?

#### robsnotes4u

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
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You are funny. Troll, because I don't agree. tried it religiously for a month and my game went to hell. You do not understand how the subconscious works if you believe you train it through the conscious mind. You can brag about the system but please don't teach of things you don't understand.

Rule #7 of the mind

When dealing with the subconscious mind and it's functions, the greater the conscious effort the less the subconscious response. This is why will power doesn't exist, and you are not training the subconscious. Your critical faculty is kicking those ideas right back creating more conflict between your two minds.

Now all I have asked for is explanations. But every time a question gets asked the CTE crowd gets defensive. I would love it to be the holy grail.

If this is the ultimate why a pivot? When pivots like English are different for every person, tips are even different sizes. A vague idea?

Isn't the picture different depending if you are right or left eye dominant?

Why is it hard to pick out a contact point on an object ball but easy to pick out the A line?

I don't want to discredit the system, I just want proof. Help me understand

Silver Member
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#### robsnotes4u

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Tried for a month not a week, i am not going to argue it is pointless. Nice to hear 30 years of mind training was worthless.

You know all the answers. I bow to you sir. I admit it you are smarter

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Neil:
Asking "why the pivot", to me sounds like someone just trying to be contrary. This is why- you have a formula, L+M+O+P=Q. You can't get Q if you leave out a part of the formula. L would be equivalent to finding the edge, M to finding the A,B, or C line; O to placing your bridge hand; and P to the pivot, and Q to the final aim line. You need the pivot simply because that is one of the steps to make the formula work.
I think the gist of the question (I think it's a good one) was this:

If you know where to put your bridge so it will be on the shot line, and you know you'll pivot from there to centerball and that will be the shot line, then you already know where the shot line is. So why not just put your bridge and stick on the line to begin with?

pj <- don't really expect an actual answer
chgo

Silver Member
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#### mohrt

##### Student of the Game
Silver Member
I think the gist of the question (I think it's a good one) was this:

If you know where to put your bridge so it will be on the shot line, and you know you'll pivot from there to centerball and that will be the shot line, then you already know where the shot line is. So why not just put your bridge and stick on the line to begin with?

pj <- don't really expect an actual answer
chgo

You know the answer as it has been discussed multiple times, but I'll bite. This is pretty much what Pro1 is. You use eye movements to find the CTEL, 2nd reference line, pre-pivot position and ultimately post-pivot position. The cue/bridge is then moved directly to this line. As for manual CTE, you don't know where the bridge goes until you find the CTEL and 2nd reference line, move into CB at 1/2 tip off center. Here you slide the bridge hand into place and pivot.

mohrt <- don't really expect anything but the same question sometime later

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
... As for manual CTE, you don't know where the bridge goes until you find the CTEL and 2nd reference line, move into CB at 1/2 tip off center. Here you slide the bridge hand into place and pivot.
OK, I'll grant that the CB center you pivot to may not be as obvious to everybody as I think it would be to me, so maybe the pivot is necessary if you have to be in the pre-pivot position to start.

But that leaves this question (almost the same one):

You learn to interpret the "visual" to place yourself in the pre-pivot position. But the post-pivot position is almost the same, and always the same move away. It seems it would take only a minor adjustment of your "visual interpretation" to place yourself directly in the post-pivot position from the beginning. Why insert the pivot step?

I'm not asking you to answer this question - just consider it. Why is the pivot needed? What precise function does it perform?

pj
chgo

#### JB Cases

##### www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think the gist of the question (I think it's a good one) was this:

If you know where to put your bridge so it will be on the shot line, and you know you'll pivot from there to centerball and that will be the shot line, then you already know where the shot line is. So why not just put your bridge and stick on the line to begin with?

pj <- don't really expect an actual answer
chgo

You can. The whole motion is the pivot. You can come down with the cue set at center ball and you're there.

#### mohrt

##### Student of the Game
Silver Member
I'm not asking you to answer this question - just consider it. Why is the pivot needed? What precise function does it perform?

Sure I'll answer, and pretty much the same as the usual answer It performs the function of using discreet objective references (centers and edges) to find the shot line, as opposed to non-discreet points or invisible balls. I'm not saying this works the same for everyone, it's just another system to get there.

#### LAMas

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sure I'll answer, and pretty much the same as the usual answer It performs the function of using discreet objective references (centers and edges) to find the shot line, as opposed to non-discreet points or invisible balls. I'm not saying this works the same for everyone, it's just another system to get there.

The secondary sight line is looking at the fractions on the OB and unlike GB, where for cut angles greater than 30 degrees, the point of aim is off of the edge of the OB on to the cloth.

Since there is no relationship to the contact/impact point on the OB and that the resulting cut angles will be different depending on the shooters bridge distance behind the CB, eye/s dominance and perhaps the diameter of the ferrule, These cut angles must be commited to memory as they relate to the secondary sight lines to the corresponding fraction on the OB.

One then looks at the shot at hand and recalls what the secondary aim line is.

Anyone should be able to do this if they are inclined to do so.:thumbup:

#### Bambu

##### Dave Manasseri
Silver Member
I never understood the secondary sight line either. How do you establish what that is?

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Me:
Why is the pivot needed? What precise function does it perform?
mohrt:
It performs the function of using discreet objective references (centers and edges) to find the shot line, as opposed to non-discreet points or invisible balls.
This is the general concept of CTE as a whole, not a direct answer to the specific question asked.

CTE's "discreet objective references (centers and edges)" are not used directly to place the bridge or to pivot. They only give the shooter a couple of references from which to estimate (by some indescribable method which cannot be called "feel") where to place the bridge and how to pivot. My question is: since we're down to estimating by this point, why do it in two steps rather than one?

pj
chgo

#### duckie

##### GregH
Silver Member
The secondary sight line is looking at the fractions on the OB and unlike GB, where for cut angles greater than 30 degrees, the point of aim is off of the edge of the OB on to the cloth.

Since there is no relationship to the contact/impact point on the OB and that the resulting cut angles will be different depending on the shooters bridge distance behind the CB, eye/s dominance and perhaps the diameter of the ferrule, These cut angles must be commited to memory as they relate to the secondary sight lines to the corresponding fraction on the OB.

One then looks at the shot at hand and recalls what the secondary aim line is.

Anyone should be able to do this if they are inclined to do so.:thumbup:

This is a good example of not fulling understanding how ghost ball works.

The point of aim is always 1/2 cb from the outer most edge of the ob and never the contact point. This 1/ cb spot can be one in space or one on the table. I use the spot on the table.

The contact point of the ob is used a reference point for a line that runs from a point for the ob to hit to the point where the gb contact patch needs to be to accomplish this.

The only time the contact point and point of aim is on the same line is for a straight in shot.

The only contact point that moves as the ob and cb angle changes is the one on the cb.

There are only three lines in a pocketing a ball. The line from the ob to the pocket, line from the cb to the spot on the table and the cue stick line.

The first two are fixed, whereas the cue stick is not. The spot on the table is where the cue stick line and the ob direction of travel line intersect. As stated before, the ob contact point is only used to help define the ob direction of travel line.

Put the cb on the rack spot and then place a ob froze to it for a dead on shot into a corner. Remove the cb and place it at any angle you want.

Stand directly behind the ob and place you cue tip on the rack spot and then move to where the cue stick is directly over the cb while keeping the cue tip on the spot.

Get behind the cb and get in a stance that allows you to stroke the cue tip straight for the rack spot. If everything was setup and performed correctly, the ob will go in. This is a good reason for using mostly center ball hits. You may notice that the you can use the top of the cb to sight to the rack spot.

This training idea is what the Arrow by Babe Cranfield is about.

There is no other aiming method more accurate than this.

The accuracy from any aiming method is about execution and hopefully this little drill will help you realize this.

Oh, I've yet to see any fractions lines on any ob or even cb. Not everyone is good a guessing fractions of something.

The other problem with fractional aiming is that you can not get low enough to have the same perception as that being shown in the 2d drawings.

Pool is played in a 3 d world, meaning the pool balls are round. Being round there is no way to hit 1/2 ball. It's a illusion if you think you are doing so.

FWIW to those that truly want to use something that applies to cut shots, combos, caroms, which I've yet seen a drawing trying to explain using fractional, 1/2 ball or CTE on these shots whereas you can use gb to do so.

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#### mohrt

##### Student of the Game
Silver Member
This is the general concept of CTE as a whole, not a direct answer to the specific question asked.

CTE's "discreet objective references (centers and edges)" are not used directly to place the bridge or to pivot. They only give the shooter a couple of references from which to estimate (by some indescribable method which cannot be called "feel") where to place the bridge and how to pivot. My question is: since we're down to estimating by this point, why do it in two steps rather than one?

pj
chgo

But it is describable, and has been described many times over. Maybe not how YOU would like it described (with math), but a description that makes the system workable nonetheless.

Here is a link to a post where (I think) Neil describes it quite clearly:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=3554229&postcount=59

Read that last paragraph for the details you are looking for.

#### mohrt

##### Student of the Game
Silver Member
As for this estimation you refer too, if there is an estimation it is minimized to something out of site, out of mind. The routine is very procedural, and is exactly what makes it so desirable. If I were having the same feeling of estimation as I do in ghost-ball, I don't think I would have ever taken to the system.

#### SJDinPHX

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Mod's...Reporting invasion of main forum (by A.S.S. guy)

From my point of view, it sure seems that the other camp, just doesn't want to accept the fact that CTE/Pro1 is arguably THE BEST AIMING SYSTEM for learning how to aim as it encompasses so many more of the attributes necessary to pocket the object ball.

I don't think it is so funny that the detractors have resorted to disrespecting anyone who uses an aiming system.

"DISRESPECT" you say ??? Absolutely not !..I only wish that "aiming system afficienados" were around back in my day, I'd be a billionaire..

PS..Joey, I thought you had your VERY OWN soapbox for spouting your 'infomercial's'...Lets not violate proper posting procedure...The main forum, is now reserved for 'normal people'..:grin:

Forum Deputy Duck

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#### Bambu

##### Dave Manasseri
Silver Member
Experience. The DVD shows a lot of example shots. You practice those and you quickly learn whether it's A or B, or B or C. Which way you are shooting determines if A or C.

I guess you cant really talk about it. How about for cte, is there a secondary line there?