"Hustling": Is It Sleazy Or Clever (Or Both)?

Is "Hustling" Sleazy, Clever, or Both?

  • I Think Hustling Is Sleazy.

    Votes: 129 39.9%
  • I Think Hustling Is Clever.

    Votes: 40 12.4%
  • I Think Hustling Is Both Sleazy & Clever.

    Votes: 154 47.7%

  • Total voters
    323

Kickin' Chicken

Kick Shot Afficionado
Gold Member
Silver Member
bzzzzt. People have tried that argument before, and it doesn't wash.
Bluffing is an essential part of poker. You can't play the game (at least in any sensible way) without it.
Pool does not require deception, any more than basketball or darts. It's a hand-eye coordination game.

<snipped the rest>."

I'm guessing you never got head-faked in basketball? :smile:

I have and not only did I feel deceived; I also felt bewildered and betrayed.

best,
brian kc
 

Masayoshi

Fusenshou no Masa
Silver Member
I'm guessing you never got head-faked in basketball? :smile:

I have and not only did I feel deceived; I also felt bewildered and betrayed.

best,
brian kc

In game deception is clearly different from using deception outside of the game to influence the outcome inside the game. Hustling would not be equivalent to a head fake, it would be equivalent to an able bodied person sneaking into a special olympics game.
 

row21097

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It comes across to me as petty deception for petty gain, and reminds me of a salesman I met who told me "I tell a lot of little lies as practice for when I have to tell a big one."

bert
 

CreeDo

Fargo Rating 597
Silver Member
I'm guessing you never got head-faked in basketball? :smile:

I have and not only did I feel deceived; I also felt bewildered and betrayed.

best,
brian kc

Masayoshi said it best.
You can stretch apples and oranges analogies until you convince yourself it's right.
But at the end of the day we're talking about tricking someone to take their money.

I guess Fast Eddie should have used a basketball or poker analogy when those guys
wanted to break his thumbs. I'm sure they would have seen things in a whole new light
and let him keep all the money.
 

Kickin' Chicken

Kick Shot Afficionado
Gold Member
Silver Member
Masayoshi said it best.
You can stretch apples and oranges analogies until you convince yourself it's right.
But at the end of the day we're talking about tricking someone to take their money.

I guess Fast Eddie should have used a basketball or poker analogy when those guys
wanted to break his thumbs. I'm sure they would have seen things in a whole new light
and let him keep all the money.

Creedo

As I mentioned previously, I am a person with a good moral compass. I'm honest. I must have evolved. :wink:

I did a little low dollar hustling in my youth because that's how the people I ran with did and, frankly, it was fun. Did I steal the lunch money off a special Olympian as masayoshi analogized? Nope. And it wasn't the old widow's rent money either.

Pool has a very long history of gambling and hustling and people seem to be smitten with it.. Look up at the poll results and you will see there are quite a few who think hustling, as defined in the op, is *both* sleazy and clever. I fall squarely in that group.

But, if. for instance, the "hustlers" were, in fact, going after a widow's rent or a special needs kid's lunch money, then I would vote sleazy without hesitation.

I find myself intrigued by what I feel were the clever means employed by some of the great hustlers in their pursuits.

And of major relevance to me on the subject is this:

I like accountability and intelligence. If you are in a position to play pool for money with someone whom you don't know, then you had better tread carefully. When you are matching up, if someone says they're an apa 4 and haven't played much in the last 6 months, do you take them at their word because people are supposed to tell the truth?

If I'm not smart enough to consider my unknown opponent may be bullshitting me about his ability, or that he's really not a full time house painter even though he said he was and is wearing painter's coveralls, then maybe, just maybe, I deserve to donate a little to him. To me, that's a penalty I should pay for my lack of alertness.

Does this mean that the guy who lied, the "hustler", is a fine upstanding citizen who should go to heaven?

Perhaps not.

But also please keep in mind that these "hustlers" really aren't taking off widows and Special Olympians. They're playing people who gamble who think they have the best of it. And unfortunately for them, they aren't quite smart enough to know they don't.

It's a tough world, creedo. Birds aren't always singing and people don't always tell the truth.

Having a little street smarts can go a long way. I feel we have an obligation, that if we have some, to protect ourselves with it.

best,
brian kc
 
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richiebalto

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Creedo

As I mentioned previously, I am a person with a good moral compass. I'm honest. I must have evolved. :wink:

I did a little low dollar hustling, however, in my youth because that's how the people I ran with did and, frankly, it was fun. Did I steal the lunch money off a special Olympian as masayoshi analogized? Nope. And it wasn't the old widow's rent money either.

Pool has a very long history of gambling and hustling and people seem to be smitten with it.. Look up at the poll results and you will see there are quite a few who think hustling, as defined in the op, is *both* sleazy and clever. I fall squarely in that group.

If. for instance, the "hustlers" were, in fact, going after a widow's rent or a special needs kid's lunch money, then I would vote sleazy without hesitation.

I find myself intrigued by what I feel were the clever means employed by some of the great hustlers in their pursuits.

And of major relevance to me on the subject is this:

I like accountability and intelligence. If you are in a position to play pool for money with someone whom you don't know, then you had better tread carefully. When you are matching up, if someone says they're an apa 4 and haven't played much in the last 6 months, do you take them at their word because people are supposed to tell the truth?

If I'm not smart enough to consider my unknown opponent may be bullshitting me about his ability, or that he's really not a full time house painter even though he said he was and is wearing painters coveralls, then maybe, just maybe, I deserve to donate a little to him. To me, that's a penalty I should pay for my lack of alertness.

Does this mean the guy who lied, the "hustler", is a fine upstanding citizen who should go to heaven?

Perhaps not.

but also please keep in mind that these "hustlers" really aren't taking off widows and Special Olympians. It's people who gamble who think they have the best of it. And unfortunately for them, they aren't quite smart enough to know better.

It's a tough world, creedo. Birds aren't always singing and people don't always tell the truth.

Having a little street smarts isn't necessarily a bad thing. You have an obligation to protect yourself with some of it.

best,
brian kc

Very nice and true post Brian!
 

Okie

Seeker
Silver Member
Creedo

As I mentioned previously, I am a person with a good moral compass. I'm honest. I must have evolved. :wink:

I did a little low dollar hustling in my youth because that's how the people I ran with did and, frankly, it was fun. Did I steal the lunch money off a special Olympian as masayoshi analogized? Nope. And it wasn't the old widow's rent money either.

Pool has a very long history of gambling and hustling and people seem to be smitten with it.. Look up at the poll results and you will see there are quite a few who think hustling, as defined in the op, is *both* sleazy and clever. I fall squarely in that group.

If. for instance, the "hustlers" were, in fact, going after a widow's rent or a special needs kid's lunch money, then I would vote sleazy without hesitation.

I find myself intrigued by what I feel were the clever means employed by some of the great hustlers in their pursuits.

And of major relevance to me on the subject is this:

I like accountability and intelligence. If you are in a position to play pool for money with someone whom you don't know, then you had better tread carefully. When you are matching up, if someone says they're an apa 4 and haven't played much in the last 6 months, do you take them at their word because people are supposed to tell the truth?

If I'm not smart enough to consider my unknown opponent may be bullshitting me about his ability, or that he's really not a full time house painter even though he said he was and is wearing painters coveralls, then maybe, just maybe, I deserve to donate a little to him. To me, that's a penalty I should pay for my lack of alertness.

Does this mean the guy who lied, the "hustler", is a fine upstanding citizen who should go to heaven?

Perhaps not.

but also please keep in mind that these "hustlers" really aren't taking off widows and Special Olympians. They're playing people who gamble who think they have the best of it. And unfortunately for them, they aren't quite smart enough to know they don't.

It's a tough world, creedo. Birds aren't always singing and people don't always tell the truth.

Having a little street smarts isn't necessarily a bad thing. You have an obligation if you have some, to protect yourself with it.

best,
brian kc

Here's the rub for me. I judge no one. I make my choices for myself and see if I can live up to my own expectations. Sometimes I do sometimes I don't. There is no gray area about lying and it is not ok because all these other smucks are doing it. It is lying. We all make our choices and we live with them...eventually.

As far as the poll...yes it is both clever and sleazy. Deception is sleazy. Wearing a makin bacon hat because you are creating an image of a dumb ass hillbilly is deception and it is sleazy. But you gotta admit....it is also pretty damn clever!

Ken
 

Banks

Banned
Part of it depends on your definition. Obviously, some see it only as laying down a lemon or something.

Is it wrong to let your opponents hustle themselves? If im told im lucky and smile and shrug it off, is that wrong? What if i play an apa race where i know my opponent needs a bigger spot? Heck, my best game comes out either when im freewheeling or under pressure, does that mean others dont get my best game? Im not going all out against every opponent because it wouldn't be fun for myself or who i usually play. If they want to put money up, they'll most likely get a tighter game.

Like somebody else said, it can happen easily when the other guy thinks he has a leg up.

I dont get to play for much and not too often.
 

Masayoshi

Fusenshou no Masa
Silver Member
Creedo

As I mentioned previously, I am a person with a good moral compass. I'm honest. I must have evolved. :wink:

I did a little low dollar hustling in my youth because that's how the people I ran with did and, frankly, it was fun. Did I steal the lunch money off a special Olympian as masayoshi analogized? Nope. And it wasn't the old widow's rent money either.

Pool has a very long history of gambling and hustling and people seem to be smitten with it.. Look up at the poll results and you will see there are quite a few who think hustling, as defined in the op, is *both* sleazy and clever. I fall squarely in that group.

If. for instance, the "hustlers" were, in fact, going after a widow's rent or a special needs kid's lunch money, then I would vote sleazy without hesitation.

I find myself intrigued by what I feel were the clever means employed by some of the great hustlers in their pursuits.

And of major relevance to me on the subject is this:

I like accountability and intelligence. If you are in a position to play pool for money with someone whom you don't know, then you had better tread carefully. When you are matching up, if someone says they're an apa 4 and haven't played much in the last 6 months, do you take them at their word because people are supposed to tell the truth?

If I'm not smart enough to consider my unknown opponent may be bullshitting me about his ability, or that he's really not a full time house painter even though he said he was and is wearing painters coveralls, then maybe, just maybe, I deserve to donate a little to him. To me, that's a penalty I should pay for my lack of alertness.

Does this mean that the guy who lied, the "hustler", is a fine upstanding citizen who should go to heaven?

Perhaps not.

but also please keep in mind that these "hustlers" really aren't taking off widows and Special Olympians. They're playing people who gamble who think they have the best of it. And unfortunately for them, they aren't quite smart enough to know they don't.

It's a tough world, creedo. Birds aren't always singing and people don't always tell the truth.

Having a little street smarts is good thing. You have an obligation if you have some, to protect yourself with it.

best,
brian kc

I never said that hustling is taking off special olympians, it was an analogy, just like your head faking analogy.

Nobody is denying that people who get hustled probably deserved it because they were more than likely being greedy, but it doesn't make hustling any less sleazy. If you are tricked into voting for a politician who turned out to be lying, you probably had it coming and lots of politicians will probably rationalize their behavior that way, but they are still sleazy whether you deserved being tricked or not.
 

The Saw

Juicy Pop in 2016!
Silver Member
Having a little street smarts is good thing. You have an obligation if you have some, to protect yourself with it.

High school, college, trade school? All good.... But a good poolroom education is a good thing to go with them.....
 

Lonestar_jim

Two & Out
Silver Member
Next time define "Hustling"...this phone doesn't show polls, but I think you should stick to Bill Stroud threads...

Cheers.

Sent from my SCH-M828C using Tapatalk 2
 

ridinda9

AKA: Sandy Bagger
Silver Member
they DID let him keep all the money. . .

Masayoshi said it best.
You can stretch apples and oranges analogies until you convince yourself it's right.
But at the end of the day we're talking about tricking someone to take their money.

I guess Fast Eddie should have used a basketball or poker analogy when those guys
wanted to break his thumbs. I'm sure they would have seen things in a whole new light
and let him keep all the money.

1) they DID let him keep all the money ~ they made a point of paying him first

2) Eddie made a huge mistake by stating "just for that I'm gonna beat you cold", and then running 7 straight racks.
A true hustler would keep it close and never reveal his true speed

3)it was never about the games with Turtle or the money anyway.In the final scene Bert reveals that Turtle broke Eddie's thumbs because Bert wanted him hurt.
Eddie was hustling in Bert's town without paying the tax. . .
 
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ridinda9

AKA: Sandy Bagger
Silver Member
there's so much more to hustling. . .

Are we really defining hustling as only disguising your true speed or identity to make a favorable match???

Because a true hustle can be so much more involved.

I have ways to get inside your head to throw off your game.

Shake your confidence.

Throw you out of stroke.

Distract you.

Make you balk.

Timing is everything. . . .and I just killed yours.

The hustle has only just BEGUN once we've made a game. . .
 

Masayoshi

Fusenshou no Masa
Silver Member
Are we really defining hustling as only disguising your true speed or identity to make a favorable match???

Because a true hustle can be so much more involved.

I have ways to get inside your head to throw off your game.

Shake your confidence.

Throw you out of stroke.

Distract you.

Make you balk.

Timing is everything. . . .and I just killed yours.

The hustle has only just BEGUN once we've made a game. . .
It depends on what you are doing. If you are playing a lot of safes to throw off a rhythm player, I wouldn't consider it hustling. If you are spitting in his chalk, I also wouldn't call it hustling, just cheating.
 

Kickin' Chicken

Kick Shot Afficionado
Gold Member
Silver Member
Next time define "Hustling"...this phone doesn't show polls, but I think you should stick to Bill Stroud threads...

Cheers.

Sent from my SCH-M828C using Tapatalk 2

Your phone also must not be able to see my 1st post then, where I painstakingly defined "hustler" for the purpose of this poll. :rolleyes:

best,
brian kc
 
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sjharr

insert something witty...
Silver Member
I am curious to know how fellow azers feel about "hustling", whether or not it's sleazy or if it's clever or possibly even a combination of the two.

To be clear, you can be a money player without being a "Hustler" but almost always a "Hustler" plays for money or some other tangible prize.

For the purpose of this poll we will define "hustler" as someone who hides their true speed, hides who they really are by disguise or other means, or says or does anything else that is not true in an attempt to give themselves some kind of an edge.

It will be a straightforward 3 option poll.

Thanks in advance for your votes and feel free to add your thoughts and comments in the thread.

best,
brian kc



Hustling defined: To earn one's living by illicit or unethical means

Easily falls into the sleazy category for me.

Steve H.
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
Hustling defined: To earn one's living by illicit or unethical means

Easily falls into the sleazy category for me.

Steve H.

You don't find it clever the way some hustlers pull off their ruse?

I abhor hustling (in the purest form), yet I still find some of the tricks "hustlers" use to be clever. But, I do not support these "clever" people.

Maniac
 

Kickin' Chicken

Kick Shot Afficionado
Gold Member
Silver Member
I said: "Did I steal the lunch money off a Special Olympian as masayoshi analogized? Nope"



then you responded:
I never said that hustling is taking off special olympians, it was an analogy, just like your head faking analogy. <snipped the rest>.

I don't think we are at odds over this. :wink:

best,
brian kc
 
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