I believe that all of the balls should be racked in a specific order specified by the WPA. This would give everybody the exact same chances. As long as that is not the case in any rule set I know of obvious pattern racking is unsportsmanlike behavior, IMHO. We all know that this still allows for less obvious pattern racking which is always hard to prove. But the original question implied that one player always racked the balls the same way - which would be obvious enough for me ...
Is Random Racking a Reasonable Request in a Rack-Your-Own 9-Ball Match-up??
- Thread starter ChrisinNC
- Start date
I was just thinking same thing. Is there a pattern that is most "run-out resistant"? If so this should be THE racking standard. Adopt this and maybe, just maybe, some of this racking bs will fade away.
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If I'm playing with a stronger player who is breaking from the right side. I will rack it like this with and emphasis on the 3 and 2 balls.
If breaking from the left, I move the 3 and 2 to the left side of the rack.
Not all the time, but on a better percentage of the breaks, the 1 and 3 end up at the top of the table and the 2 is at the opposite end meaning the shooter has to travel the length on his first 3 shots.
All of your questions about pattern racking are pretty much self explanatory to ANYONE that has been around.
Are you trying to make yourself feel better about being a victim or doing it yourself?
If you don't already know, telling you will not help.
Are you trying to make yourself feel better about being a victim or doing it yourself?
If you don't already know, telling you will not help.
There are always ways around it if pattern racking isn't allowed by the rules, so I say allow it.
In a recent 10 ball tournament it was specified that the 2 and 3 balls need to be in the corners and no pattern racking.
So I noticed that Shaw just alternated two different patterns. One with the 4 and 5 ball behind the head ball, and the other with the 8 and 9 ball behind the head ball. He just switched those two patterns every time he broke.
That was accepted and numerous players did the same thing.
In a recent 10 ball tournament it was specified that the 2 and 3 balls need to be in the corners and no pattern racking.
So I noticed that Shaw just alternated two different patterns. One with the 4 and 5 ball behind the head ball, and the other with the 8 and 9 ball behind the head ball. He just switched those two patterns every time he broke.
That was accepted and numerous players did the same thing.
"...without purposeful or intentional pattern."
I'm a bit puzzled by this whole thing. I always thought that when the rules required a random rack, that is, that in the case of nine ball, that all of the balls except the one and nine be arranged without purposeful or intentional pattern; that the randomness of the rack was an important aspect of the game. Otherwise, why would there be such a rule?
Second, arranging balls intentionally under this rule is certainly unsportsmanlike conduct. Would the same folks who do this surreptitiously improve their lie when playing golf? Report fewer strokes? I imagine so.
I like the ideas of:
The only way I can imagine enforcing these without argument is to put the one and nine in place and then blindly draw balls from a bag to be placed in a predetermined order in the rack. For example, given this rack:
1
a b
c 9 d
e f
g
balls drawn from the bag would be placed in order of a, b, c, and so forth.
With this scheme there are 5040 different rack patterns you can encounter (permutations of 7 items is 7! (7 factorial; 7!=7 × 6 × 5 × 4 × 3 × 2 × 1 = 5040).
I like the randomness aspect, and I like just taking pattern racking off the table.
I'm a bit puzzled by this whole thing. I always thought that when the rules required a random rack, that is, that in the case of nine ball, that all of the balls except the one and nine be arranged without purposeful or intentional pattern; that the randomness of the rack was an important aspect of the game. Otherwise, why would there be such a rule?
Second, arranging balls intentionally under this rule is certainly unsportsmanlike conduct. Would the same folks who do this surreptitiously improve their lie when playing golf? Report fewer strokes? I imagine so.
I like the ideas of:
- the randomness of the rack
- no pattern racking, either defensively, or offensively.
The only way I can imagine enforcing these without argument is to put the one and nine in place and then blindly draw balls from a bag to be placed in a predetermined order in the rack. For example, given this rack:
1
a b
c 9 d
e f
g
balls drawn from the bag would be placed in order of a, b, c, and so forth.
With this scheme there are 5040 different rack patterns you can encounter (permutations of 7 items is 7! (7 factorial; 7!=7 × 6 × 5 × 4 × 3 × 2 × 1 = 5040).
I like the randomness aspect, and I like just taking pattern racking off the table.
The game has gotten slow enough. Do we really wanna start drawing balls from a bag?
So, you think this might add 30 seconds to this process? And that's a problem?
Would likely be just as quick as letting someone pattern rack.
I think the guy who isn't racking according to a pattern is free to start doing
so and it sounds as if he should have been thinking about it for awhile. What is
random? I think each would be better off racking the same way to eliminate BS.
so and it sounds as if he should have been thinking about it for awhile. What is
random? I think each would be better off racking the same way to eliminate BS.
I think if two people are betting, any ruleset they agree to beforehand is fine. I almost always play for money, but never very much so it keeps it fun. Now who is to say what a "pattern rack" is exactly when two are betting during a game? Obviously placing the balls in a specific manner in the rack is pattern racking, but there are other tricks too, that aren't as obvious.
I wouldn't call it beforehand, but if during the game they were doing it. I'd make a comment like, "oh we got correy duel in here" then start doing the same. What's good for the goose...
I wouldn't call it beforehand, but if during the game they were doing it. I'd make a comment like, "oh we got correy duel in here" then start doing the same. What's good for the goose...
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Some players "assume" the rules in their head before playing and get in a hurry to just start playing and get the money. Mid-way through, they run into these problems about rules which were never discussed beforehand. As players match up more and mature, they start to talk about specific rules before they play.
An ol' pool hustler told me years ago, "the game is won or lost before the first ball is ever hit".
Yeah, everyone wants to see the Corey duel sof break pattern rack.
Displayed by Dr Dave
https://youtu.be/ZnYiuO8I6Pg
Of if someone wants to pull up the Dennis putting a 6pack on Shaw by pattern racking. Almost every shot is to the same pocket.
Displayed by Dr Dave
https://youtu.be/ZnYiuO8I6Pg
Of if someone wants to pull up the Dennis putting a 6pack on Shaw by pattern racking. Almost every shot is to the same pocket.
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Good question. Here are my thoughts:
First, I think pattern racking is only an issue for strong pros. I just don't see it making much difference unless you are watching elite players. For B players it is beyond irrelevant, for A players it may make a tiny difference, but I'm just not seeing consistent layouts from amateur players, and I'm certainly not seeing much advantage to consistent layouts when they do appear unless the player has the execution proficiency of a strong pro.
That said, I rack the exact same rack every time. If the rules prohibit that, then I don't. I play A speed. The reason I do it is habit and mild OCD. I can't say that the layouts are particularly beneficial. One thing that recurs for me is that the 8 ball lays great for the 9 ball. But other than that I don't see too much effect. I guess the test would be to play 20 sets against the ghost. 10 will be with my pattern, 10 will be random. While this might not be enough data to be conclusive, it may reveal some trends. I'll try it out if I get time.
To answer the question, I do not think the request is unreasonable. I also don't think the other player saying it doesn't matter is unreasonable. At the Derby City this year I was playing Chris Melling, and he did politely ask me mid way through the match to mix the rack up some. I offered no argument and did that. Didn't care either way. For me I don't do it to gain some advantage. I do it out of habit...one little part of zoning out and trying to put my brain in a particular place. Not a big deal either way. If anything, I appreciate that Melling thought I was worth bothering over with that haha! Also, if its 9 on the spot and a break box, controlling the layout of the balls is WAY harder than if it is one on the spot and break from anywhere. That is an important consideration as well.
KMRUNOUT
I do agree with KMRunout that it does not make much of a difference for us average players. Still, even a tiny difference counts. One single lucky runout due to consistent pattern racking can still win a race to 5. And I believe that a rule which has been widely accepted for many years should not be broken. Else we could break any and all rules and make the game even more of a mess. Yep, how about push shots/double hits? Ball to the rail? Scoop jumps? Most would agree that those rules are there for a reason although you could for example argue that a push shot is sometimes used on purpose in trick shots and opens up some nice ways to play.
In the end, I believe that if someone breaks a rule (without mutual consent with the other player/s) it shows that the guy would break pretty much any rule to his advantage. I prefer not to play such people if they insist on creating their own rulebook on the go.
When I play I insist on playing to WPA rules and any additional rules agreed upon by both players BEFORE starting the game. What do I know how they play in Behindthemossytree, AR in some bar or local league? I would immediately unscrew if the other player insisted on playing some funny rules of his own that have not been agreed upon. At least not in a tournament or money game. For funzies, anything goes. And that is why I prefer to play with friends for either nothing or table time/a round of beers. Takes out most of the incentives to put yourself into an unfair advantage.
In the end, I believe that if someone breaks a rule (without mutual consent with the other player/s) it shows that the guy would break pretty much any rule to his advantage. I prefer not to play such people if they insist on creating their own rulebook on the go.
When I play I insist on playing to WPA rules and any additional rules agreed upon by both players BEFORE starting the game. What do I know how they play in Behindthemossytree, AR in some bar or local league? I would immediately unscrew if the other player insisted on playing some funny rules of his own that have not been agreed upon. At least not in a tournament or money game. For funzies, anything goes. And that is why I prefer to play with friends for either nothing or table time/a round of beers. Takes out most of the incentives to put yourself into an unfair advantage.
Did the one player make this request of the other? Was the request granted?
Or is this unsolicited advice? It has been know to happen down yonder.
In my mind even this is pattern racking (Max’s breaks). Template rack, 9 on the spot, cut break, 1 in the side...and specifically putting the 2-ball in the same spot on every rack and having the same shot at the 2-ball after every break. It doesn’t matter where balls 3-8 were placed. A strong player has a great chance of running out with that good of a start.
https://www.facebook.com/onthewirepromotions/videos/1995827250715897?sfns=mo
But I wouldn’t worry if you’re not talking runout-level players.
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The only 'semi-random' racking requirement I've started seeing is
the 2 ball in the back.. and that's in tourneys, not matching up.
You've set 'some' rules... racking template, 9 on the spot.. the
pattern stuff should've been discussed before you started. $.02
the 2 ball in the back.. and that's in tourneys, not matching up.
You've set 'some' rules... racking template, 9 on the spot.. the
pattern stuff should've been discussed before you started. $.02