Is this a foul?

[breakup]

This happened last night. We have all seen some variation of this but what is the definitive correct call? A breaker hits the head ball ( playing 9 ball) and the cue ball goes straight up shatters the light (circular neon ) and falls back to the table where the balls come to rest among the broken glass. There were numerous opinions floating around some of the more reasonable ones were.

Foul - because the cue ball hit an object other than the table

Foul - because the movement of the cue ball was impeded by the broken glass which was placed there by the breaker, like knocking a piece of chalk in the path of a moving cue ball.

Foul – because the movement of numerous object balls was impeded by the glass

No Foul – as long as the cue ball came to rest on the playing surface

Is it a foul? Why? What is the remedy?

 

[Wally in Cincy]

The cueball technically left the table. That's the foul. Any time a ball hits anything other than the playing surface or the rails (including the light) it's a foul.

Did someone have a Dirt Devil handy?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

As stated in the BCA rule book:

3.28 BALLS JUMPED OFF TABLE
Balls coming to rest other than on the bed of the table after a stroke (on the cushion top, rail surface, floor, etc.) are considered jumped balls. Balls may bounce on the cushion tops and rails of the table in play without being jumped balls if they return to the bed of the table under their own power and without touching anything not a part of the table. The table shall consist of the permanent part of the table proper. (Balls that strike or touch anything not a part of the table, such as the light fixture, chalk on the rails and cushion tops, etc., shall be considered jumped balls even though they might return to the bed of the table after contacting items which are not parts of the table proper). In all pocket billiard games, when a stroke results in the cue ball or any object ball being a jumped ball off the table, the stroke is a foul. All jumped object balls are spotted (except in 8 and 9-Ball) when all balls have stopped moving. See specific game rules for putting the cue ball in play after a jumped cue ball foul.


3.35 NON-PLAYER INTERFERENCE
If the balls are moved (or a player bumped such that play is directly affected) by a non-player during the match, the balls shall be replaced as near as possible to their original positions immediately prior to the incident, and play shall resume with no penalty on the player affected. If the match is officiated, the referee shall replace the balls. This rule also applies to “act of God” interferences, such as earthquakes, hurricanes, light fixture falling, power failures, etc. If the balls cannot be restored to their original positions, replay the game with the original player breaking. This rule is not applicable to 14.1 Continuous where the game consists of successive racks: the rack in progress will be discontinued and a completely new rack will be started with the requirements of the normal opening break (players lag for break). Scoring of points is to be resumed at the score as it stood at the moment of game disruption.



I guess this means that if you hit the light, it's a foul BUT IF YOU BREAK IT, you get to play the game over again w/ no foul. AWESOME!


Jude M. Rosenstock

 

[breakup]

The cueball technically left the table. That's the foul. Any time a ball hits anything other than the playing surface or the rails (including the light) it's a foul.

Did someone have a Dirt Devil handy?

thanks, Yea they had a vac handy this is the second time in a week! ( Kids!!)

 

[Bob Jewett]

As stated in the BCA rule book:
...
I guess this means that if you hit the light, it's a foul BUT IF YOU BREAK IT, you get to play the game over again w/ no foul. AWESOME!

That's not the way I read the "Acts of God" part. If the light falls by itself, the player cannot be held responsible. The glass did not come down on its own in the given situation. Another example would be if the player raised his stick quickly and smashed out a bulb, sending glass down onto the balls and table. That would be a foul.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I don't believe it's a foul. If you read the two rules I pasted in my earlier post, you'll see that this may fall under the "act of god" description. If it can be argued that the balls could not be accurately restored, the breaker could demand that the game be replayed. Under normal circumstances, this would be a foul BUT the moment the glass hits the table, the circumstances change dramatically. The same player can also argue that to effectively clean the table, the balls must be moved which would require the game be replayed.


Jude M. Rosenstock

 

[Rackin_Zack]

I don't believe it's a foul. If you read the two rules I pasted in my earlier post, you'll see that this may fall under the "act of god" description. If it can be argued that the balls could not be accurately restored, the breaker could demand that the game be replayed. Under normal circumstances, this would be a foul BUT the moment the glass hits the table, the circumstances change dramatically. The same player can also argue that to effectively clean the table, the balls must be moved which would require the game be replayed.


Jude M. Rosenstock

Unless the breaker is God, it was not an act of God...lol.

 

[breakup]

Unless the breaker is God, it was not an act of God...lol.

the breaker does think highly of his own game

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Okay, I'm not going to get into the silly 'who is God' issue. That's not the point. The real question is once it has been established that the broken glass has already affected play and will continue to affect play unless cleaned up, what is the appropriate remedy? Although hitting the light under normal circumstances WOULD be a foul, broken glass on the table changes the situation because you cannot necessarily play it as is and you cannot restore the balls. Simply put, a foul can no longer apply. If I were the incoming player, I would insist that the table get cleaned-up thoroughly before setting my hand down on the cloth. So what happens to the game? I believe that this may be a rerack but if there is a penalty, it'd have to be a loss of game. How can a foul apply to a game that cannot be played?


Jude M. Rosenstock

 

[Rackin_Zack]

Okay, I'm not going to get into the silly 'who is God' issue. That's not the point. The real question is once it has been established that the broken glass has already affected play and will continue to affect play unless cleaned up, what is the appropriate remedy? Although hitting the light under normal circumstances WOULD be a foul, broken glass on the table changes the situation because you cannot necessarily play it as is and you cannot restore the balls. Simply put, a foul can no longer apply. If I were the incoming player, I would insist that the table get cleaned-up thoroughly before setting my hand down on the cloth. So what happens to the game? I believe that this may be a rerack but if there is a penalty, it'd have to be a loss of game. How can a foul apply to a game that cannot be played?


Jude M. Rosenstock

I would say that it would be a re-rack and the incoming player would have the choice of breaking.

 

[fxskater]

Im with rackin Zack on this one. In 9 ball you might even offer ball in hand on the rerack, I'm not to sure if that would only apply on miscues where you just missed the rack entirely. You could also take the time to clean it up without disturbing the balls too much, giving the option to rerack or take ball in hand.

 

[breakup]

Thanks for all the thoughtful answers guys, I’m sure the folks back at the Palace will be interested.

cheers

 

[Jimmy M.]

This is a little unrelated, but it just reminded me of a time when I flew the ball of the table on the break. I broke the balls, and the cue ball went flying forward, pretty high, far, and fast. Well, the ball was on a direct collision course for another player's head who was playing on the table next to me. I know I had the thought to yell out to warn the guy that the ball was coming, but I was frozen speechless! Anyway, I watched the ball streak toward the side of his head, seemingly in slow motion, and *just* before it would have nailed him, he bent down to shoot a shot, and the ball whizzed right over the top of him. Meantime, he was completely unaware of what had just happened. *whew*

Oh yeah, that was a foul!

 

[Rackin_Zack]

This is a little unrelated, but it just reminded me of a time when I flew the ball of the table on the break. I broke the balls, and the cue ball went flying forward, pretty high, far, and fast. Well, the ball was on a direct collision course for another player's head who was playing on the table next to me. I know I had the thought to yell out to warn the guy that the ball was coming, but I was frozen speechless! Anyway, I watched the ball streak toward the side of his head, seemingly in slow motion, and *just* before it would have nailed him, he bent down to shoot a shot, and the ball whizzed right over the top of him. Meantime, he was completely unaware of what had just happened. *whew*

Oh yeah, that was a foul!

That reminds me of a time I was standing at the head of the table, jumping the cueball off the end rail and catching it. Well, one time I didn't hit it exactly right and it popped up and went forward and came down on the light of the table next to mine where a guy was down over a shot. I was very lucky that it didn't hit him...lol. Needless to say I don't do that much anymore, and I especially don't do it if there is anyone that could be hit on the next table!

However, talking about people getting hit with balls. One night at the pool hall a couple of years ago one of the bar tenders, who had had a few adult beverages, was throwing a pool ball up in the air and catching it. One time he threw it up pretty high and was under it like an outfielder setting up to catch a pop fly. Well, he missed the ball and it hit him square in the forehead...lol. He dropped like a rock. It was one of the funniest things I've ever seen!

 

[Rod]

This is a little unrelated, but it just reminded me of a time when I flew the ball of the table on the break. I broke the balls, and the cue ball went flying forward, pretty high, far, and fast. Well, the ball was on a direct collision course for another player's head who was playing on the table next to me. I know I had the thought to yell out to warn the guy that the ball was coming, but I was frozen speechless! Anyway, I watched the ball streak toward the side of his head, seemingly in slow motion, and *just* before it would have nailed him, he bent down to shoot a shot, and the ball whizzed right over the top of him. Meantime, he was completely unaware of what had just happened. *whew*

Oh yeah, that was a foul!

Everyone knows you yell FOUR. LOL Well it's good his pre shot routine wasn't too long!

 

[Rod]

Some answers on this thread border on ridiculous. Some have quite the imagination. All you have to do is look no farther than rule 3.28 if your playing by bca rules. The poster never said so that is an assumption.

Now if you think your god carries more weight and can interfere with a pool game guess again. If he still persists, we'll throw his butt out!! Anyone ever read a rule heading?

NON-PLAYER INTERFERENCE --- means exactly that. In this case that didn't exist. The player, (not your god) hit the lamp and busted the hell out of it!

Personally I think the player should be stoned in the street, but in the light of a Happy New Year, just a foul is called.

Rod

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

That reminds me of a time I was standing at the head of the table, jumping the cueball off the end rail and catching it. Well, one time I didn't hit it exactly right and it popped up and went forward and came down on the light of the table next to mine where a guy was down over a shot. I was very lucky that it didn't hit him...lol. Needless to say I don't do that much anymore, and I especially don't do it if there is anyone that could be hit on the next table!

However, talking about people getting hit with balls. One night at the pool hall a couple of years ago one of the bar tenders, who had had a few adult beverages, was throwing a pool ball up in the air and catching it. One time he threw it up pretty high and was under it like an outfielder setting up to catch a pop fly. Well, he missed the ball and it hit him square in the forehead...lol. He dropped like a rock. It was one of the funniest things I've ever seen!

Kudos to Rackin Zack for writing the funniest thing I've read all day. Excuse me while I step away from my desk to laugh out loud!

Jude!

 

[catscradle]

I don't believe it's a foul. If you read the two rules I pasted in my earlier post, you'll see that this may fall under the "act of god" description. If it can be argued that the balls could not be accurately restored, the breaker could demand that the game be replayed. Under normal circumstances, this would be a foul BUT the moment the glass hits the table, the circumstances change dramatically. The same player can also argue that to effectively clean the table, the balls must be moved which would require the game be replayed.


Jude M. Rosenstock

The foul occured prior to the glass landing on the table. As soon as the cueball flew the table and hit the light it was a foul and no subsequent occurences reverses that. It's a foul.
Of course what is the right action after that. If the glass hadn't fallen it would be simply ball in hand, but I'm sure the glass couldn't be cleaned without disturbing the object balls. What then?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Some answers on this thread border on ridiculous. Some have quite the imagination. All you have to do is look no farther than rule 3.28 if your playing by bca rules. The poster never said so that is an assumption.

Now if you think your god carries more weight and can interfere with a pool game guess again. If he still persists, we'll throw his butt out!! Anyone ever read a rule heading?

NON-PLAYER INTERFERENCE --- means exactly that. In this case that didn't exist. The player, (not your god) hit the lamp and busted the hell out of it!

Personally I think the player should be stoned in the street, but in the light of a Happy New Year, just a foul is called.

Rod

Gee thanks Rod, we appreciate that. However, the rule doesn't cover this topic in its entirety. The underlying problem here is that there's glass on the table so what do you do then? You have one guy who can argue that the glass affected the outcome of the layout and another guy who can argue that the glass might continue to interfere. The non-player interference rule could be used in the sense that the light fixture ISN'T the player's responsibility and because normal player interference has to be deliberate (this was not). Would it be reasonable to assume that a light fixture should be able to withstand a sloppy break?

Calling a simple foul just doesn't work AS A RULE because the game, unfortunately, should be a wash. Why? Because there's glass on the table. Once you concede that in order to remove the glass from the table, you must further disturb the layout, you have to replay the entire game. What in the world is a foul worth then?


To put it bluntly, I'm certain that if I went to the BCA Nationals in May and smashed the lights on my first break, they'd remove all the balls, sweep the table clean and replay the game. They'd likely allow my opponent to break as a penalty (and also to save money on bulbs).


Jude M. Rosenstock

 

[Rod]

Of course what is the right action after that. If the glass hadn't fallen it would be simply ball in hand, but I'm sure the glass couldn't be cleaned without disturbing the object balls. What then?

Do you need a rule for everything? Common sense is starting to fade away here. You just clean up the table and proceed with BIH or prevaling rules. As far as the debris it doesn't matter since it doesn't fall under NON-PLAYER INTERFERENCE.

Rod