# Lets discuss cushion nose heights!

#### buckshotshoey

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's a simple formula to follow, let's call the 1 11/16" sub rail thickness and K55 cushions the godfather of pool table rail design.

Now, along comes K66 profile cushions. Here's your formula, if the Gandy rails are a 1/16" of an inch thinner, then lower the nose height a 1/16" of an inch, to 1 3/8".

If an Olhausen rail is 1 1/2" thick, that's 3/16" less thickness than 1 11/16" so lower the nose hight by 3/16" of an inch, to 1 1/4" and no, the balls won't hop.
Everyone pays attention to the nose height, but NO ONE pays attention to where the body of the cushion is behind that nose height, and it's more of the body of the cushion that really determines how that nose height is going to react, and play, not so much the nose height. The nose height has a variable setting, 1% higher equals 1/32" nose hight movement, up or down form its determined nose height, based on subrail thickness. You MUST know A) the subrail thickness and B) the determined nose height, FIRST before you can determine the subrail bevel to make A+B work together!

Does any of that make any sense to you?
Make perfect sense. All I said was if I come across a table with a ball jumping problem, cushion nose height is the first thing I look at. Remember the valley I am said I had to raise the slate on? I noticed the gap between the rails and slate. So I did a quick measurement.

The nose height was too high and balls were kind of getting trapped under the nose on impact. They were coming off dead. I shimmed the slate up to the proper height and problem gone.

Sometime you don't have to go so deep to discover the problem. I Check the simple things first, then I dive deeper if the obvious things check out. If the obvious reasons prove to be wrong, then the not obvious must be the truth.

If the nose height doesn't fall into what is concidered normal ranges but the table still plays well, I don't fret it. If it's not broke, don't fix it.

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
Make perfect sense. All I said was if I come across a table with a ball jumping problem, cushion nose height is the first thing I look at. Remember the valley I am said I had to raise the slate on? I noticed the gap between the rails and slate. So I did a quick measurement.

The nose height was too high and balls were kind of getting trapped under the nose on impact. They were coming off dead. I shimmed the slate up to the proper height and problem gone.

Sometime you don't have to go so deep to discover the problem. I Check the simple things first, then I dive deeper if the obvious things check out. If the obvious reasons prove to be wrong, then the not obvious must be the truth.

If the nose height doesn't fall into what is concidered normal ranges but the table still plays well, I don't fret it. If it's not broke, don't fix it.
Over the years, I've learned to question the last so called mechanic that worked on the table last, before I question the person asking why the table plays the way it does. The point I was making, is nose heights change per table build, so you can't assume all nose heights are the same. On some tables you may think the nose height is low, when in fact, it's at the correct nose height for that piticlar build of table, and there's something else wrong.

#### 3kushn

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's a simple formula to follow, let's call the 1 11/16" sub rail thickness and K55 cushions the godfather of pool table rail design.

Now, along comes K66 profile cushions. Here's your formula, if the Gandy rails are a 1/16" of an inch thinner, then lower the nose height a 1/16" of an inch, to 1 3/8".

If an Olhausen rail is 1 1/2" thick, that's 3/16" less thickness than 1 11/16" so lower the nose hight by 3/16" of an inch, to 1 1/4" and no, the balls won't hop.
Everyone pays attention to the nose height, but NO ONE pays attention to where the body of the cushion is behind that nose height, and it's more of the body of the cushion that really determines how that nose height is going to react, and play, not so much the nose height. The nose height has a variable setting, 1% higher equals 1/32" nose hight movement, up or down form its determined nose height, based on subrail thickness. You MUST know A) the subrail thickness and B) the determined nose height, FIRST before you can determine the subrail bevel to make A+B work together!

Does any of that make any sense to you?
OK I going to show my ignorance here. Just a interested bystander asking for some clarification on terminology to get my mind straight.
Is this pic below accurate as far as what we're calling the "Bevel" and "Sub Rail Thickness"
Just making sure as I've always used terms Liner and Angle.

As far as Thickness goes, if the below is correct, I must be confused. If I had a new subrail (liner) made, wouldn't I be constrained to the height of the main rail. (for lack of a better term) In other words I could only go so high (thick). Right? On the other hand the cushion profile and maybe brand I choose will determine how thin I can go???

Lastly isn't the "Bevel" (Angle) determined by the Cushion Profile? Or does for instance, K55 and K66 feel at home sitting on the same bevel? Angle.

Kind of a side bar: I was told by a USA 3C Champ that a 1deg angle change = 1/2 diamond plus or minus on the 4th rail.

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
OK I going to show my ignorance here. Just a interested bystander asking for some clarification on terminology to get my mind straight.
Is this pic below accurate as far as what we're calling the "Bevel" and "Sub Rail Thickness"
Just making sure as I've always used terms Liner and Angle.

As far as Thickness goes, if the below is correct, I must be confused. If I had a new subrail (liner) made, wouldn't I be constrained to the height of the main rail. (for lack of a better term) In other words I could only go so high (thick). Right? On the other hand the cushion profile and maybe brand I choose will determine how thin I can go???

Lastly isn't the "Bevel" (Angle) determined by the Cushion Profile? Or does for instance, K55 and K66 feel at home sitting on the same bevel? Angle.

View attachment 688693

Kind of a side bar: I was told by a USA 3C Champ that a 1deg angle change = 1/2 diamond plus or minus on the 4th rail.
You have the description correct, but you're all over the place on the rest.
702-927-5689

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
OK I going to show my ignorance here. Just a interested bystander asking for some clarification on terminology to get my mind straight.
Is this pic below accurate as far as what we're calling the "Bevel" and "Sub Rail Thickness"
Just making sure as I've always used terms Liner and Angle.

As far as Thickness goes, if the below is correct, I must be confused. If I had a new subrail (liner) made, wouldn't I be constrained to the height of the main rail. (for lack of a better term) In other words I could only go so high (thick). Right? On the other hand the cushion profile and maybe brand I choose will determine how thin I can go???

Lastly isn't the "Bevel" (Angle) determined by the Cushion Profile? Or does for instance, K55 and K66 feel at home sitting on the same bevel? Angle.

View attachment 688693

Kind of a side bar: I was told by a USA 3C Champ that a 1deg angle change = 1/2 diamond plus or minus on the 4th rail.
The bevel the cushions sit on does not determine the nose height, the formula A) + B= C the bevel needed to set the nose height to the pre determined nose height, based on the sub rail thickness of A.

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
OK I going to show my ignorance here. Just a interested bystander asking for some clarification on terminology to get my mind straight.
Is this pic below accurate as far as what we're calling the "Bevel" and "Sub Rail Thickness"
Just making sure as I've always used terms Liner and Angle.

As far as Thickness goes, if the below is correct, I must be confused. If I had a new subrail (liner) made, wouldn't I be constrained to the height of the main rail. (for lack of a better term) In other words I could only go so high (thick). Right? On the other hand the cushion profile and maybe brand I choose will determine how thin I can go???

Lastly isn't the "Bevel" (Angle) determined by the Cushion Profile? Or does for instance, K55 and K66 feel at home sitting on the same bevel? Angle.

View attachment 688693

Kind of a side bar: I was told by a USA 3C Champ that a 1deg angle change = 1/2 diamond plus or minus on the 4th rail.
Without changing the sub rail bevel, no matter what the nose height of K55 cushions, K66 will sit an 1/8" higher, there for the 2 profiles can not share the same bevel. Most table mechanics get confused with the older Brunswick Monarch K55 cushions because when measured across the top they're 1 1/8" wide, the same as K66 measures. But if they were smart, they'd lay the cushions on their back, and but them up end to end, in which case they'd realize the nose heights don't match up, the triangle of the cushions are in fact, different. Again, the K66 sits about a 1/8" higher when compared to the K55 cushions. And because of how the body of the cushions line up behind the nose, the K55 cushions are better suited to the 1 11/16" Sub Rail thicknesses, rater than K66, because they would require lowering the bevel to lower the nose height, then that puts the nose of those cushions below their center line max energe for rebounding, and in fact cause the balls to hop. K66 cushions, by design, are better fitted to rails with a 1 5/8" Thickness, or less.

#### Palmetto cue

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here's a simple formula to follow, let's call the 1 11/16" sub rail thickness and K55 cushions the godfather of pool table rail design.

Now, along comes K66 profile cushions. Here's your formula, if the Gandy rails are a 1/16" of an inch thinner, then lower the nose height a 1/16" of an inch, to 1 3/8".

If an Olhausen rail is 1 1/2" thick, that's 3/16" less thickness than 1 11/16" so lower the nose hight by 3/16" of an inch, to 1 1/4" and no, the balls won't hop.
Everyone pays attention to the nose height, but NO ONE pays attention to where the body of the cushion is behind that nose height, and it's more of the body of the cushion that really determines how that nose height is going to react, and play, not so much the nose height. The nose height has a variable setting, 1% higher equals 1/32" nose hight movement, up or down form its determined nose height, based on subrail thickness. You MUST know A) the subrail thickness and B) the determined nose height, FIRST before you can determine the subrail bevel to make A+B work together!

Does any of that make any sense to you?
Fascinating! I have experienced tables like this and have never understood why it was happening since the installer would quote the rail height you mentioned earlier, and even measure it. This is mostly on bar boxes. Maybe this is a question for another time, but how do you make rail height adjustments to Valley bar boxes? I measured my Diamond 7 ft and its 1 3/8, but i play a lot on the Valleys for league. Thanks in advance for any help.

Last edited:

#### garczar

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey DD, you don't know jack about tables so please quit chiming in.

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
Fascinating! I have experienced tables like this and have never understood why it was happening since the installer would quote the rail height you mentioned earlier, and even measure it. This is mostly on bar boxes. Maybe this is a question for another time, but how do you make rail height adjustments to Valley bar boxes? I measured my Diamond 7 ft and its 1 3/8, but i play a lot on the Valleys for league. Thanks in advance for any help.
Unless your Diamond has had the cushions changed, all Diamond rails are made in the same molder, so all share the same nose height, meaning if your nose height is at 1 3/8", then ALL Diamonds would have a nose height the same, but they're set at 1 7/16" and rail nose heights are not something you can adjust, without first changing the bevel the cushions are glued to.

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
Ok
Fascinating! I have experienced tables like this and have never understood why it was happening since the installer would quote the rail height you mentioned earlier, and even measure it. This is mostly on bar boxes. Maybe this is a question for another time, but how do you make rail height adjustments to Valley bar boxes? I measured my Diamond 7 ft and its 1 3/8, but i play a lot on the Valleys for league. Thanks in advance for any help.
Ok, Valley rails can change the way they play from one mechanic to the next, depending on a lot of outside factors that have nothing to so with the design build of the Valley table. But if we just take a look at the cushions, and the right, and WRONG way to recover them, that's a good starting point.

What's the difference in how the cloth is installed on these 2 different sets of Valley rails?

#### buckshotshoey

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok

Ok, Valley rails can change the way they play from one mechanic to the next, depending on a lot of outside factors that have nothing to so with the design build of the Valley table. But if we just take a look at the cushions, and the right, and WRONG way to recover them, that's a good starting point.

What's the difference in how the cloth is installed on these 2 different sets of Valley rails?
View attachment 688846View attachment 688847
The cloth at the bottom of the rail is trimmed on the bottom instead of the back. This will drop the nose height.

I just recently came across the opposite on a slate mounted rail...
The cloth wasn't trimmed into the cloth relief. The folds made it worse. Raised the nose too high.

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
The cloth at the bottom of the rail is trimmed on the bottom instead of the back. This will drop the nose height.

I just recently came across the opposite on a slate mounted rail...
The cloth wasn't trimmed into the cloth relief. The folds made it worse. Raised the nose too high.

View attachment 688849
Absolutely correct! This is why it's so important to get the correct information out about how to correctly install cloth on pool tables. The correct way helps installers learn this trade better, the correct work also informs the customers in the difference between correct work, and incorrect work. And, the more information the customers have, the less likely they'll be taken advantage of, wasting their valuable money, paying for shit work. That is the reason I stress asking for pictures of the work the mechanic's DON'T show, NOT the pictures of the finished table. Any table will look good in the finished pictures of the table, depending on how close, and what parts of the tables are shown! But THOSE pictures can be so deceiving it's a joke!!!

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
The cloth at the bottom of the rail is trimmed on the bottom instead of the back. This will drop the nose height.

I just recently came across the opposite on a slate mounted rail...
The cloth wasn't trimmed into the cloth relief. The folds made it worse. Raised the nose too high.

View attachment 688849
If you were a home table owner, and asked a mechanic you were thinking about hiring for pictures of their work, and you got pictures of work like that, what would you think.??

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
The cloth at the bottom of the rail is trimmed on the bottom instead of the back. This will drop the nose height.

I just recently came across the opposite on a slate mounted rail...
The cloth wasn't trimmed into the cloth relief. The folds made it worse. Raised the nose too high.

View attachment 688849
Would you hire this table mechanic, if he showed you these pictures of his work??

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
The problem is, most people who want a table in their home wouldn't know the difference if it bit them in the ass. That's why there are still hacks out there doing crap work.
But, do you really think the hack would show their work if it was requested, or just quit responding to the customer, and just move on to the next potential customer? Just asking for those pictures is enough to send a warning to the hack, especially if the customer has SEEN pictures of what the work SHOULD look like here on AZB!!!

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
The problem is, most people who want a table in their home wouldn't know the difference if it bit them in the ass. That's why there are still hacks out there doing crap work.
If there's one thing I've noticed over the last 17 years posting on AZB, the members and lurkers here have learned to look for, and request references for better table mechanics, because they've all learned a lot right here, and KNOW the difference between a hack, and a real table mechanic!!

#### realkingcobra

##### Well-known member
Silver Member
The problem is, most people who want a table in their home wouldn't know the difference if it bit them in the ass. That's why there are still hacks out there doing crap work.
I have table mechanics now posting the pictures of their work on MY Facebook page, because I have such a huge following, and if I endorse their work, then the customers are calling them for their work, because they've SEEN it, without having to take a gamble and pay for it first

And those same table mechanics, if they get stuck on something, don't hesitate to call me for advice! They'd rather call me first, before making a mistake, than make one first. And it's because of that reason that I support them 100% anytime they need it, anytime of day, or night, 365!

#### rexus31

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But, do you really think the hack would show their work if it was requested, or just quit responding to the customer, and just move on to the next potential customer? Just asking for those pictures is enough to send a warning to the hack, especially if the customer has SEEN pictures of what the work SHOULD look like here on AZB!!!