Mezz Wavy joint

[poolplayer2093]

I didn't say the joint wasn't engineered enough. I believe it is over engineered--in a very incompetent way.

If you read, I've always said that a screw is a poor locator. The pins that claim to be both a screw and a locating device are mostly the result of people trying something while knowing little to nothing about the engineering concepts they are proclaiming to use.

As far as tools being tools, sure, great. What if you had to go buy a few hundred dollar tool to change your flat tire? I'm sure you'd not mind if that happened to you in the middle of the winter miles away from anywhere at midnight on a sunday. Right?

Same concept.

As far as pissing, it is only you who is. KJ and I have attempted to EDUCATE ignorant people. Before anyone gets angry at me calling them ignorant, let me state that ignorance, in itself, is nothing to be ashamed of--we are all ignorant about certain things (I certainly don't know anything about medieval chivalry--Jaden proved that recently. Oh, oops, I do know something about chivalry because I read his article and accepted he knew more about it than I). Ignorance by choice (i.e. when you are given information and still refuse to learn) should not be tolerated.

I'll state it again: I can't abide by manufacturers making claims that are either false or not supported.

As for the marketing over here, maybe in Norway every statement is legitimate. Maybe every consumer refuses to be taken in by claims. I somehow doubt it.

dld

you're making a big deal about nothing. it's a pin in a cue and most people that buy them like the shafts that get offered with the cue.

you don't want to use a mezz shaft don't buy mezz cue. the snug fit and tight tolerances just seem to equal quality.

i've liked every mezz cue i've owned and like that the cue screws together tight.

 

[poolplayer2093]

Yet you and others keep reading and replying.

If you didn't notice, I was directly responding to a post which asked questions.

dld

and i told a guy screaming gibberish he was crazy yesterday too. just because i responded doesn't make the big deal being made out of nothing more meaningful

 

[KJ Cues]

just because i responded doesn't make the big deal being made out of nothing more meaningful

Actually, this statement is very true. Your post count reflects that.
You like to post regardless of whether you have any knowledge of the topic or not.
You have a lot of opinions and not much knowledge. Please stop confusing the two.

The average buyer won't find a thing wrong with this pin. To that extent, there is no problem.
The problems begin when the buyer wants to have work done on their cue or a new shaft made.
One reason for the use of a bastard pin is to keep the buyer leashed to the builder (or manufacturer).
Where else will the client get this work done?

In this case, the repair-person isn't going to buy the correct tooling 'off the shelf'.
It will have to be custom made at a cost of approx. 5 times the cost of the repair.
Now the buyer might understand why this pin is a problem. Few CMs or CTecs will touch it.
I for one, didn't get into this business with the thought of losing money because the client didn't know what he was buying.
It's not about being critical towards the buyer after the fact. It's about educating the buyer BEFORE he spends his money.

KJ

 

[Lexicologist71]

It's amazing how many ways a point can be made but never understood by the target audience.

 

[riedmich]

I just bought Mezz Ace-N from ozonebilliards the cue came with 1butt 1shaft tube and also the joint protector. The shaft is hybrid alpha with wavy joint. It is wood to metal joint. The cue quality is incredible but my only problem is i'm really afraid that if I connect and disconnect the butt and shaft many many times, the wood joint in the shaft will be eroded and no longer fit the butt.

Please anyone suggest me what to do? Or ensure me that u use wavy joint for 5 years or more without any problem.

Thank you very much.

I play an AXI-K with Wavy Joint. In comparison to several 3/8x10 and 3/8x11 Joints + the steel joints 5/16x14 and 5/16x18 that I played before, I experienced 2 differences to the Wavy Joint.

- My Wavy Joint has also after many times of screwing and unscrewing no backlash. As I understand the sense of a backlash-less screw connection for cues, it gives a bit more security in the connection for the case, that the axial force isn't high enough to ensure that the contact surfaces of butt and shaft are perfectly in contact. This could happen if the srew was'nt fixed tightly enough.

- Contrary to the above issue I think it is harder to screw the Wavy Joint strong enough together than other joints. I recognized many times that after an hour of playing I can strengthen the connection by screwing the shaft 1 or 2 degrees additionally. The reason for this may be that the Wavy-Joint has a pretty low level of its self-retention compared to other threads. Maybe because the high gloss polished surfaces of the pin, which cause a pretty low coefficient of static friction.

The low coefficient of static friction should in my understanding be compensated by a lower thread pitch, then the Wavy Joint could be a really better Joint. All in all this Joint has advantages in low wear by the polished surfaces and backlash-less fit, but only if the user takes extra care to ensure that the screw is fixed tightly enough.

So at the end I think the Wavy Joint is a proper Joint, but there are for sure better ones.

These are only my personal thoughts on the Wavy Joint.

 

[ronscuba]

What joint/pin offers the best connection ?

Best from the standpoint of never getting loose and contributing to feeling of a 1 piece cue ?

 

[riedmich]

In my opinion a standard 5/16x18.

But there are many "weak" arguments when discussing about joint systems, and maybe tooooo much muystfication. At the end you must be aware of screwing every joint tightly enough together, and than every joint system can be "the best". The contribution of screwing tightly enough can only provide the user itself. No joint sytem is foolproof.

 

[ronscuba]

In my opinion a standard 5/16x18.

But there are many "weak" arguments when discussing about joint systems, and maybe tooooo much muystfication. At the end you must be aware of screwing every joint tightly enough together, and than every joint system can be "the best". The contribution of screwing tightly enough can only provide the user itself. No joint sytem is foolproof.

Like many other things in pool and life, there really is no best.

However, I bet most have had cues become loose during a match and some cues do feel more 1 piece than others. I would think joint design and cue manufacturing tolerances are a part of this.

 

[riedmich]

If it goes about cue manufacturing tolerances and their influence on the "feelable" qualities of a cue, I'm with you. Maybe it is the most important issue after the different kinds of materials used for the different functional cueparts.

To me it is OK playing a Wavy Joint that is not perfect, because the whole cue is good for my needs, and I don't care about mystics. I know how to deal with the Joint's disatvantages and I'm happy about its accuracy. Nothing more

 

[riedmich]

Ah, another experience: what helps to have a tighter fit of the screwed parts is to humidify the contact surfaces with spit before screwing together. It allows the contact surfaces to slide better while screwing together under the axial force, so you can reach a higher axial force much easier. Easy but very effective. So effective that at a 3/8x11 it could happen that it is nearly impossible to loosen the connection. This experience caused me several pain in my hands ...

;-)

 

[Lexicologist71]

A higher thread count would yield a tighter joint for the same effort exerted on cues with identical diameters. It is not the screw that gives the 'hit'. It is all the other things, tip, ferrule, taper and density of the shaft, the joint collars, and weight, along with just too many other little things to bother trying to list them without leaving something out.

 

[JoeyInCali]

This is actually not true--the difference in thread count has nearly no effect on the axial force exerted. The face/face friction and the male/female thread friction caused by the axial force is what limits the threading of the cue.

Interestingly, a smaller pin does increase the axial force for a given torque.

dld

Would a 5/16 18 TPI have more axial force than a 5/18 18 TPI ( both 1" long ) ?
Thanks.

 

[JoeyInCali]

No, 5/16" is larger than 5/18". What is a 5/18"?

It isn't an intrinsic quality, neither of them have more axial force. One (the smaller diameter) will provide more axial force when a given torque is applied.

The length only factors in two ways: First it has to be long enough that the number of threads is able to carry the load (I think a normal steel-steel design uses at least five full threads). Second, a longer threaded portion will result in more friction force in the thread which will reduce the axial force.

dld

5/16 18 compared to 5/8 18 I meant.
My bad.
thnx

 

[riedmich]

Hey DoubleD, what would be the most reliable and user-friendly joint / pin from your point of view? User-friendly meaning to get a maximum of axial force with a minimum of torque? And strong enough not to be destroyed by a user that has hands like a clamp?

 

[poolplayer2093]

Actually, this statement is very true. Your post count reflects that.
You like to post regardless of whether you have any knowledge of the topic or not.
You have a lot of opinions and not much knowledge. Please stop confusing the two.

The average buyer won't find a thing wrong with this pin. To that extent, there is no problem.
The problems begin when the buyer wants to have work done on their cue or a new shaft made.
One reason for the use of a bastard pin is to keep the buyer leashed to the builder (or manufacturer).
Where else will the client get this work done?

In this case, the repair-person isn't going to buy the correct tooling 'off the shelf'.
It will have to be custom made at a cost of approx. 5 times the cost of the repair.
Now the buyer might understand why this pin is a problem. Few CMs or CTecs will touch it.
I for one, didn't get into this business with the thought of losing money because the client didn't know what he was buying.
It's not about being critical towards the buyer after the fact. It's about educating the buyer BEFORE he spends his money.

KJ

you don't know enough about me to know what knowledge i do or don't have.

don't hate on the pin because they market their cues better than you do

 

[riedmich]

I think the same in principle. For whatever marketing reason Mezz decided for this Wavy Joint we should accept that one says it's good and the other calls it bad. The Wavy Joint works more or less and has advantages and disadvantages. Coming back to the original question this joint has in my opinion and in comparison to other joint systems low potential to show wear inside the shaft's thread if screwed and unscrewed many many times.

If I am satisfied with my own actual Wavy Joint Mezz player cue, time will show. I'm pretty sure that the joint will not be the reason why I may decide for another player cue in future.

 

[Lexicologist71]

Oh, then I'll answer the question differently. The 5/16 pin will theoretically provide double the axial force that the 5/8 will.

The formula for calculating this is Fa=T/(u*D)

Where Fa is axial force (clamp force)
u is a coefficient of friction based on a number of factors
T is torque applied
D is major diameter of the screw.

dld

So why aren't propellers mounted with #10 screws instead of 1/2" bolts?

 

[Hidy Ho]

Michael - I'll get back to you on a email in stead of PM with a picture and description.

K

Would you mind sharing the info? I'm also interested in how you are tapping the wavy joint.

Mezz has slightly "bizarre" business concept. They won't sell partial shaft or make me 3/8x11 thread shaft. So if I want one, I'll have to get another shaft, bore, plug and make my own 3/8x11 thread on the shaft. What a bother.

 

[Naked Cues]

So why aren't propellers mounted with #10 screws instead of 1/2" bolts?

They should mount propellers with the new mezz pins... :grin:

 

[CuesRus1973]

What is so bad about it ? Are all wood joints bad or just the Wavy ?

I didn't read the whole thread so this may have been commented on already. The one thing I can tell you is that there is probably nobody in the country that has the tap for that cue. You will not be able to get the shaft repaired if it strips, you will not be able to get a new shaft made, and you will not be able to get any custom joint protectors. I would just play with it and if you have a problem with the shaft, get the shaft made to fit a 3/8-10 or Radial pin and have the pin changed in the butt.