Mosconni Cup needs a major change to stay relevant.

[Quesports]

The youth programs in Europe have helped them tremendously over the last 10-15 years. The fruits of their labor are starting to show up and we rot away……..

Yikes. Not sure it's that bad yet.

I do believe we have some talented junior players here as well. At least I want to think so!

 

[straightline]

The youth programs in Europe have helped them tremendously over the last 10-15 years. The fruits of their labor are starting to show up and we rot away……..

Empires have always produced the finest craftsmen. People there have a sense of quality that Genericans don't even GAS about. We can't re-evolve to reproduce their results. Wouldn't want to. 'Fya ask me the only response is to shoot the pool. Make What You Take.

 

[Oze147]

This year, the US may well be up (Fargo in parentheses) against Filler (836), Gorst (827), Sanchez-Ruiz (825), Shaw (819) and Ouschan (821).

On a side note, I wonder if we see Shaw at this years Cup. He will need some strong results in the US tournaments, since I don`t think he will show up to the Eurotour events and He, Kazakis will play Eurotour plus the US Open and the International. I think Filler, Albin and FSR are booked for the MC and one wild card will go to Gorst, so Shaw has to fight hard for his place on the team this year.

Anyway, the US/MC topic has been discussed many, many times and in my eyes the main problem is, that the US players, besides Shane, lack the professionalism and the work ethics of the Europeans.

Some say the pool of players is bigger in Europe and this is certainly true for the pros, but I think the amateur scene is still more lively in the US with overall more pool players than in Europe.
Some say that the US has lost its lead when it comes to knowledge about the game, but I think there are more instructors in the US than in Europe, more enthusiasts that write books and put out content on social media and last but not least with banks, one pocket etc. more types of pool games that generate knowledge, that the Europeans have never heard of.
Some say it is all about the money and yes, there are governments funding European players and sponsorship contracts with companies outside the pool world. But in reality nobody in Europe is waiting to throw money at pool players, most of them get their fundings and contracts only AFTER they have been successful.
Some say the Europeans are just more talented than the US players and again I slightly disagree, since I don`t think that a young Skyler or Thorpe had less talent than Albin or Filler in their early years.

So in the end, as mentioned above, it comes all down to professionalism and committing your life to being an athlete.
Your knowledge of the game won`t save you against someone who is shooting straighter and is more fit mentally and physically.
Put in the hours at the table and in the gym.
If you want money, go and ask for it. Present yourself as an athlete in real life and on social media, make yourself interesting for the fans and the sponsors.
Don´t think it is enough to show up to small tournaments, since you are the best player in range.
Travel, play the best players and improve...and maybe one day beat those Fillers, Gorsts and Albins.

 

[terpdad]

I don't have the energy to point out all the flaws in OP's logic, but just b/c one team is losing more games in the short term D/N mean it's time to change the rules. To use another sport's analogy as others have, I live in the midwest. For years, Michigan dominated Ohio State in football. Fifteen or twenty years ago that changed and now Ohio State is dominant, but the underdog still wins. No one is saying Michigan should get to have 15 players to Ohio State's 11. Players, coaches, and culture change over time. Leave things alone.

 

[buckshotshoey]

On a side note, I wonder if we see Shaw at this years Cup. He will need some strong results in the US tournaments, since I don`t think he will show up to the Eurotour events and He, Kazakis will play Eurotour plus the US Open and the International. I think Filler, Albin and FSR are booked for the MC and one wild card will go to Gorst, so Shaw has to fight hard for his place on the team this year.

Anyway, the US/MC topic has been discussed many, many times and in my eyes the main problem is, that the US players, besides Shane, lack the professionalism and the work ethics of the Europeans.

Some say the pool of players is bigger in Europe and this is certainly true for the pros, but I think the amateur scene is still more lively in the US with overall more pool players than in Europe.
Some say that the US has lost its lead when it comes to knowledge about the game, but I think there are more instructors in the US than in Europe, more enthusiasts that write books and put out content on social media and last but not least with banks, one pocket etc. more types of pool games that generate knowledge, that the Europeans have never heard of.
Some say it is all about the money and yes, there are governments funding European players and sponsorship contracts with companies outside the pool world. But in reality nobody in Europe is waiting to throw money at pool players, most of them get their fundings and contracts only AFTER they have been successful.
Some say the Europeans are just more talented than the US players and again I slightly disagree, since I don`t think that a young Skyler or Thorpe had less talent than Albin or Filler in their early years.

So in the end, as mentioned above, it comes all down to professionalism and committing your life to being an athlete.
Your knowledge of the game won`t save you against someone who is shooting straighter and is more fit mentally and physically.
Put in the hours at the table and in the gym.
If you want money, go and ask for it. Present yourself as an athlete in real life and on social media, make yourself interesting for the fans and the sponsors.
Don´t think it is enough to show up to small tournaments, since you are the best player in range.
Travel, play the best players and improve...and maybe one day beat those Fillers, Gorsts and Albins.

I still dont understand why Gorst is even allowed to play. I never considered Russia was a European country and I dont think any of my Geometry books did either.

Dont take that the wrong way. I enjoy watching him play. But how is Russia a European country?

 

[Oze147]

I still dont understand why Gorst is even allowed to play. I considered Russia was a European country and I dont think any of my Geometry books did either.

Dont take that the wrong way. I enjoy watching him play. But how is Russia a European country?

Well, 1/4 of Russia`s landmass is considered European, the rest Asian. That said, most of the people live in the European part.

I guess most Europeans consider Russia as an European country and most Russians do too, but there are also opinions that Russia has kind of a special culture as a mix of European and Asian influences.

Anyway, if you see it in a sports way, Russia always belonged to the European counrties, taking part in European Championships, European Qualifiers etc....if they are not waging war or having any doping or corruption scandals, of course.

 

[skogstokig]

On a side note, I wonder if we see Shaw at this years Cup. He will need some strong results in the US tournaments, since I don`t think he will show up to the Eurotour events and He, Kazakis will play Eurotour plus the US Open and the International. I think Filler, Albin and FSR are booked for the MC and one wild card will go to Gorst, so Shaw has to fight hard for his place on the team this year.

Anyway, the US/MC topic has been discussed many, many times and in my eyes the main problem is, that the US players, besides Shane, lack the professionalism and the work ethics of the Europeans.

Some say the pool of players is bigger in Europe and this is certainly true for the pros, but I think the amateur scene is still more lively in the US with overall more pool players than in Europe.
Some say that the US has lost its lead when it comes to knowledge about the game, but I think there are more instructors in the US than in Europe, more enthusiasts that write books and put out content on social media and last but not least with banks, one pocket etc. more types of pool games that generate knowledge, that the Europeans have never heard of.
Some say it is all about the money and yes, there are governments funding European players and sponsorship contracts with companies outside the pool world. But in reality nobody in Europe is waiting to throw money at pool players, most of them get their fundings and contracts only AFTER they have been successful.
Some say the Europeans are just more talented than the US players and again I slightly disagree, since I don`t think that a young Skyler or Thorpe had less talent than Albin or Filler in their early years.

So in the end, as mentioned above, it comes all down to professionalism and committing your life to being an athlete.
Your knowledge of the game won`t save you against someone who is shooting straighter and is more fit mentally and physically.
Put in the hours at the table and in the gym.
If you want money, go and ask for it. Present yourself as an athlete in real life and on social media, make yourself interesting for the fans and the sponsors.
Don´t think it is enough to show up to small tournaments, since you are the best player in range.
Travel, play the best players and improve...and maybe one day beat those Fillers, Gorsts and Albins.

agree 100%.

regarding shaw it's gonna have to be a wildcard pick unless he does some real damage at the US open. i personally don't think lely should pick shaw over gorst and mario he.

US has some real jokers to throw in as wildcards. how strong is earl now? what about tony chohan? not to mention the captain himself. chohan pushed JL chang to the hill in one of the big events, maybe the world 10-ball. might have been last year.

 

[skogstokig]

two more jokers i failed to mention are bergman and dechaine

 

[garczar]

USA professional pool went all-in on Shane Van Boening at the expense of every other player that could have been cultivated towards becoming world-class.

And it will continue to pay the price for that mistake for many years to come.

where does this 'cultivating' you mention take place? these was no going 'all in' on anybody. as long as the US remains the 'Land of the Barbox' we'll never compete on the world stage in any significant way. i guess my real point here is that there is little-to-no 'cultivating' of any kind taking place in the US. Compared to what goes on in europe/asia the US is light yrs behind.

 

[sjm]

Updating a post from last year:

Not a bad idea. In the past 9 years of the Mosconi Cup:​

• Of the 146 matches played, the winner of the lag won 91 of the matches (62%).​

• The team that won the Cup won the majority of the lags 6 times, tied with the team that lost the Cup twice, and lost the majority of the lags once.​

But I agree with what sjm said 3 posts up: "It's not about chemistry, teamwork or winning more lags (the usual annual excuses) but about raising the level of American play in a sustainable way."

Thanks for that. Do you know what percent of time the breaker won the double hill rack of a Mosconi Cup match? After all, the right to break on the double hill is the primary advantage gained by a winning lag.

 

[Guy Manges]

From day one, I didn’t like the idea…I wrote an article for a small mag stating…Europe is a continent…let’s make our side North America.
….I’d like to see one Canuck and one Mexican on the team.
USA against the world is a vanity…the British Empire went through the same thing….and it might help in the country’s relationships.
….nevertheless, I cheer for the USA every year.

BTW, re bar boxes…they keep the game alive here…and some pretty good players came out of that scene.…
…and I rarely play on bar tables

YES...

 

[sjm]

On a side note, I wonder if we see Shaw at this years Cup. He will need some strong results in the US tournaments, since I don`t think he will show up to the Eurotour events and He, Kazakis will play Eurotour plus the US Open and the International. I think Filler, Albin and FSR are booked for the MC and one wild card will go to Gorst, so Shaw has to fight hard for his place on the team this year.

Anyway, the US/MC topic has been discussed many, many times and in my eyes the main problem is, that the US players, besides Shane, lack the professionalism and the work ethics of the Europeans.

Some say the pool of players is bigger in Europe and this is certainly true for the pros, but I think the amateur scene is still more lively in the US with overall more pool players than in Europe.
Some say that the US has lost its lead when it comes to knowledge about the game, but I think there are more instructors in the US than in Europe, more enthusiasts that write books and put out content on social media and last but not least with banks, one pocket etc. more types of pool games that generate knowledge, that the Europeans have never heard of.
Some say it is all about the money and yes, there are governments funding European players and sponsorship contracts with companies outside the pool world. But in reality nobody in Europe is waiting to throw money at pool players, most of them get their fundings and contracts only AFTER they have been successful.
Some say the Europeans are just more talented than the US players and again I slightly disagree, since I don`t think that a young Skyler or Thorpe had less talent than Albin or Filler in their early years.

So in the end, as mentioned above, it comes all down to professionalism and committing your life to being an athlete.
Your knowledge of the game won`t save you against someone who is shooting straighter and is more fit mentally and physically.
Put in the hours at the table and in the gym.
If you want money, go and ask for it. Present yourself as an athlete in real life and on social media, make yourself interesting for the fans and the sponsors.
Don´t think it is enough to show up to small tournaments, since you are the best player in range.
Travel, play the best players and improve...and maybe one day beat those Fillers, Gorsts and Albins.

Another fine post from one of AZB's most consistently thoughtful posters. I agree with most of what you say.

You're right, too, that while Fedor, Filler, FSR and Albin look like certain picks (Fedor, who tops the 2022 money list, will, in my view, be the second-best player on Team Europe behind Josh this year), Shaw is not the slam dunk for selection he usually is. What he's got going for him is that he was MVP of the last two Mosconi Cups, and he won bronze at both the Premier League Pool and the World 10-ball. against two of the toughest fields of 2022. It may come down to Shaw and Kaci, also a bronze medalist at the World 10-ball, with World 10-ball Champion Szewczyk an outside possibility. We'll know soon eough.

 

[jokrswylde]

where does this 'cultivating' you mention take place? these was no going 'all in' on anybody. as long as the US remains the 'Land of the Barbox' we'll never compete on the world stage in any significant way. i guess my real point here is that there is little-to-no 'cultivating' of any kind taking place in the US. Compared to what goes on in europe/asia the US is light yrs behind.

Just wait until the Barbox takes over Europe. Soon as those fancy "clubs" over there realize they can serve 4-5 more paying memberships by moving in more (smaller) tables, it's over. It might be like a plague of locusts sweeping across the European countryside. THEN, we will be about 2 decades ahead of the game!

 

[The_JV]

I love the Mosconni Cup but lets face it, the USA cannot compete enough to make it relevant I believe it will always be the case because Europe has twice the population as the USA and many countries' social safety nets provide much better long term financial security to pro's (and their families) who must dedicate their lives to the sport to be competitive. Not to mention those that actively sponsor youngsters. Golf's Ryder Cup is the format the Mosconni Cup is based on. Before 1979 competition was held between Great Britain and the USA only and it became snooze fest since the USA was so dominant. Led by Jack Nicholas, it was changed to include all of Europe and is now the most anticipated event next to Golf's majors. My recommendation is we include players from North and South America to help even out the field. I know many love to chant USA,USA,USA, but if we only win once every 5 or 10 years it’s going to die. Your thoughts?

Until the USA team always comprises the best 5/6 players available by ranking then there should be no complaints about being able to compete.

 

[Guy Manges]

Ok, you forced me to provide some more stats.

The Mosconi Cup has been played 28 times. After the first 12 (1994-2005), the score was 10-2 USA. Then, in 2006 they played to a tie (why did they allow that to happen?) For the last 15 Cups (2007-2021) the score was 12-3 Europe. So let's look at that long 15-year period in which Europe has dominated. Here are the results for singles, doubles, and teams matches (USA's wins first), a total of 256 matches over those 15 years:

Singles -- 49 - 87 (USA winning percentage 36%)​

Doubles -- 44 - 61 (42%)​

Teams -- 7 - 8 (47%)​

Total -- 100 - 156 (39%)​

​

Over that 15-year period

In singles, USA scored more points than Europe just once, was outscored 12 times, and tied twice.​

In doubles, USA scored more points than Europe 4 times and was outscored 11 times.​

[The split in the 5-person teams matches was as even as it can be, but combining those 15 matches with the doubles matches to get an overall "team" or non-singles result doesn't do much for the USA winning percentage (moves it less than 1 percentage point), and it is only 1 player per team per game anyway (i.e., no real teamwork during each game).]

So, yes, USA has fared better in doubles than singles, but they have actually done quite poorly in both.

I've got to agree with you, I know in the last 5or 6 years I turn them off because of I see over talking / teaching in our teams that has cost us... Also in singles I see our younger players trying to hard and having to pay the price... Guy ,

 

[couldnthinkof01]

Relevant? This is pool mister!

 

[Guy Manges]

The youth programs in Europe have helped them tremendously over the last 10-15 years. The fruits of their labor are starting to show up and we rot away……..

We got young players coming up... Guy

 

[Black-Balled]

Play the MC in a dive bar with shitty tables and thumpin' death-metal in the background. Players have to drink team shots after every lost game. Make it REAL ba-beeeeee. Also, the 5ball has to be ORANGE.

I hear the Rocky theme..

This is of great interest to me...tell me more?

 

[Guy Manges]

The top European players (and many Asian players) start out with coaches, work through a complex series of certifications/qualifications to advance and continue to consult with coaches throughout their playing careers. Ours frankly don't. The approach to the game from start to finish is totally different. The OG players of old in the U.S. had gambling, the Road and countless local and regional tournaments and sponsors with deep pockets to work with, when the Euro players were still playing mostly pub leagues. Most of that action is dead, many of the open "tours" and tournaments are glorified Masters amatuer events, and there's no central organized body or pro tour to build on here in the U.S. The system that bore the Lassiter-era and the subsequent Strickland/Varner/Sigel-era and bred Mosconi Cup dominance has atrophied and all but died. Meanwhile, China and Europe created and nurtured a better system that is lucrative, sustainable and develops a more dominant class of player. That, and most of them are conditioned to work with coaches to stay on top. I would point out that when Team Europe's coach came over to the U.S. side, the players were the same but the results were dramatic. Interesting....

Thank you for that, Well done... Guy

 

[FastManners]

I don't think the Mosconi Cup is broken or a dying format, as it is still drawing big crowds and is by far the most dominant event on the calendar in terms of profile.
What I think could actually enhance it and make it an even more fun event to watch, would be to reserve one wild card spot every year to a "legend" spot that has to say be over 60 years old and be a previous Mosconi player. In order to showcase a number of different "legends", that player would not be eligible to play two years in a row. We could get then get the chance to see the likes of Jimmy White, Tony Drago or Steve Davis play for Europe and Earl, Sigel or Varner, etc for the US.

Again, I don't think it is a broken format, but it might help to slightly level the playing field, whilst also adding a little spice and fun to the event.