My little gripe with the APA, what do you think?

Beware_of_Dawg

..................
Silver Member
A few years ago,I was playing in an APA 9ball singles qualifier@the local level. I won my first two roundsand when I got to the finals,the guy I was playing did not play on a 9 ball team.I asked him how could he play if he was not on an active team.He said if he won he would get on a team.The rules state you must be on an active team in the format in which you are playing. I asked the league operator about this rule.Her reply was "I have latitude with the rules".What are your thoughts on this?


He had to have had a 8ball handicap to be playing, just not on a 9ball team. I showed up to a APA event once (local) that was 8ball but no one mentioned that there wouldnt be a 9ball tourney too... My LO made the same exception for me. If I won, I had to join a 8ball team and meet 8ball qualifications before I could go to regionals... I didnt think anything of it. Actually a smart move by the LO. If I would have won, I would have ended up spending alot more money playing 8ball weekely, and probably would have started another team (I am look time captain of 9 ball teams)... Ive allowed many APA 8ball players to join my 9ball teams inevitably, they get killed for awhile usinf the APA 8ball handicap they had established and either drop SL's in 9ball or get much better. I have never seen a SL3-4-5-6 come over and be considered "strong" at that same SL for 9ball.

and why would you care? if he was using a 8ball handicap to play you in 9ball ? until you get to SL8+ 9ball handicaps (at least here in my area (VERY populated Central Florida)) are generally are generally lower than 8ball handicaps... So if he was a SL6 in 8ball and playing you at that SL in 9ball... you should have destroyed him.
 

dru

Registered
Oh and in case you didn't guess- how many teams do you think we have this session? yea, not 8.[/QUOTE]



Actually sir we do have 8 teams in the division!! However, only 5/6 of them have any kind of competitiveness to them!

Oh and you better straighten your team out or you're gunna be the next DQ
 

Beware_of_Dawg

..................
Silver Member
Actually sir we do have 8 teams in the division!! However, only 5/6 of them have any kind of competitiveness to them!

Oh and you better straighten your team out or you're gunna be the next DQ

:eek: Total bad form. WTF? Jump into a thread and start threating people?

email, PM him or call him if you have a problem with the way he or his team is conducting themselves.

Seriously, this isn't the place for that.

*edit* and to the OP's message and agreeing with a couple others that have responded... Yeah, I would raise a stink about the $100 part. The DQ was your fault, but having to pay for the spot your not taking is unacceptable. Your $$$ gripe is 100% legit, I wouldn't let that drop.
 
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APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I currently play in the apa, and was a local division rep for some time, untill recently when a similar situation occured. I was managing a small (7 team) division for apa on a volunteer basis. We had 7 teams and the league office really wanted me to hustle up another team to fill our bye week in the schedule. So, I find several others to form a team and we get the bye slot filled. The captain of our new team is a good friend of mine from local tournaments,etc. and immediately becomes a 7. The other members of this new team also play very well and they would like me to host a singles qualifier for our league. I set it up and we run a 16 player board, double elimination with 5 spots to advance to regionals. Knowing the players from the new team did not have enough games I called the day of the tournament to speek with out L.O. Unable to get a hold of them, I spoke to someone in the office who said these new players were ok to enter as long as they remained active (sending in money every week)on a team. So the tournament is held and the new capatin I mentioned is one of the 5 that win. Well after a while I get a call saying that I am to inform him and 2 others that they are dqed for not having enough games before the tournament. No refunds of their money. I argue that I had been told by the same office otherwise, they say too bad not our problem. I mean the main guy in question was a 7 do they think he is sandbagging? WTF I basiclly told them I wasnt going to be their go between for this nonsense and then informed them of where they could stick their division rep position. Long story short, this kind of thing happens and I just come to expect it from apa. I play for a team with some good friends and we have fun but thats because we all know not to expect anything from apa, once your money is in their hands that's where it stays.

Oh and in case you didn't guess- how many teams do you think we have this session? yea, not 8.

If this had happened in my area, and I was able to verify that someone in my office told you these players could play (not that anyone in my office would, I have no employees and those who answer the phones know the right answer to that question), then I would eat the money they paid in entry fees and give them a refund. If you were not able to reach us at all, and went ahead and ran the qualifiers, I would refund the entries for everyone and not process any of the boards. I believe most LO's would handle it this way.

In fact, a call to the national office would probably get the matter settled in your favor. Did you try that? If you didn't, why not?
 
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Richardson

Who me ?
Silver Member
Oh and in case you didn't guess- how many teams do you think we have this session? yea, not 8.



Actually sir we do have 8 teams in the division!! However, only 5/6 of them have any kind of competitiveness to them!

Oh and you better straighten your team out or you're gunna be the next DQ[/QUOTE]


If you're his L.O. you should be embarrassed.
 

BilliardPhotos

flickr.com/billiardphotos
I called up the league operator and asked her what the problem was, and she said I was not active on a team, and therefore I was disqualified.

I told her that if I had been warned about it, I could have easily hopped onto another APA team on a different weekday, as I know several team captains.
She told me that it's not the APA's responsibility to warn me, I need to read the fine print.

Fair enough. Even though I was never told I needed to remain active on a team within the 6 or 7 month time frame, I should have read the fine print

Sam exact thing happened to me. Same response. Same feeling of "you are quick to take my money but slow to do customer service" feeling
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are a couple of misperceptions in this thread, and I'd like to clarify how the singles program works.

It starts at the local level, with a tournament involving 4-8 players. The winner can advance to the regional level, if the qualifier board is processed by the LO and sent on to the national office. The LO has about a month to process the board and send it in.

The money for the board can be collected any number of ways. Each player on the board could pay an equal up-front fee ($12.50 if there are 8 players, as much as $25 if there are only 4). Each player could pay a per-match fee ($7 per match with 8 players, around $16 with just 4 players). The winner could pay the entire fee, so those who do not qualify don't pay anything. There are many other ways to collect the money, but the important thing is to collect enough to cover what has to be sent to the national office. The fee is for the local qualifier itself, it is not an entry fee to the regional event. There is no entry fee at the regional or national levels.

Some LO's incorporate singles qualifiers into their MVP tournament. Some of those who do so will pay the entire fee from the Player's Fund as part of the MVP program, while others give the winner the option of paying. If the winner chooses not to pay, the board is simply discarded and not processed/sent. In some cases, the winner is given some period of time (less than a month) to decide. There is NO option to pay at the regional site, because it is not an entry fee to the regional.

Once the board has been completed and the fees collected, the winner is given two tear-off cards, one to mail to the national office and one to keep. The one that's mailed notifies the national office that this player has won a singles qualifier and they should expect the paperwork and fees within the next month or so. This protects the player's eligibility, in case the board gets lost on the way to the LO (often the LO isn't the one running the board), or gets lost on the way from the LO to the national office.

The second card is kept by the player, and is called a "Regional Eligibility Certificate." It protects the player's eligibility in case there's a snafu at the national office and the player is accidentally left out of a regional. I have never seen this happen, but if it ever does the player is guaranteed an opportunity to play in a regional. On the back of this card, in print that's NOT fine, are the requirements for remaining eligible. There are only four requirements. (1) Notify your local League Operator that you have won a singles qualifier, (2) Remain a current APA/CPA member (pay your yearly membership fee), (3) Remain on the roster of a team in the format in which you qualified, and (4) Contact your local League Operator if you haven't received a regional information packet 30 days prior to the event.

That's it - four requirements. Actually, just three, if you consider that staying on a team means you will eventually pay your membership fee if it comes due before your regional. There isn't even a requirement to play another match before your regional. When I'm running the qualifier, I personally hand the winner the card and tell them to make sure they read the back. I specifically point out that they must stay on a team to remain qualified. I also tell them that if they fail to remain qualified, they will lose the money they paid.

A couple of months prior to each regional event (there are two a year, and the qualifying windows for those events close three months prior), the LO gets a list of players qualified from his/her area and is asked to verify skill levels and eligibility. It is then that we discover a qualified player failed to remain on a team. An entire session or more may have passed, at which time it is too late to "rescue" a player who couldn't read and follow the four requirements. Sometimes, it's only a few weeks, and in those cases I personally contact those players and do what's necessary to get them on a team. Sometimes that simply means finding a team with an open roster spot and contacting the captain to make sure they don't intend to fill that spot with a player who is actually going to play. Though I am not required to do this, I do it because the player paid money and wants to stay qualified. I can't speak for other LO's.

When the national office receives a processed board, they bill the LO for the fees. They have no idea how the fees were collected or how much the winner actually paid. Often times, neither does the LO, if they were not the ones actually running the qualifier. Regardless, the national office received the fees for literally thousands of boards, so imagine the hassle they would have to go through to refund different amounts to the hundreds (not exaggerating) of players who can't follow four instructions. Not that I'm saying they should, as the money was paid for the local qualifier, which actually happened.

As for the requirement to stay on a roster, it's not there to make sure APA "continues to get your money" for some period of time. The singles program is a benefit for APA members, and the national office often incurs a deficit to provide the program (yes, they lose money on it when participation is down, because they guarantee the payouts at nationals). As such, do you really think they want their loyal members to be knocked out at regionals or nationals by players who don't even play in the league? In addition, players who are required to remain on a roster tend to show up and play occasionally, so we as league operators get some data with which to gauge whether a player has improved since they qualified and should be playing at a higher skill level.

To cuetechasaurus, I feel bad that the LO responded the way she did on the phone. I don't know if she was reacting to your tone or not, but in either case she could have been a little more sympathetic. On the other hand, when that call comes in, there's really not much I can say except "I'm sorry, but there's really nothing I can do. You were informed of the requirements when you qualified and the money was sent to the national office months ago. You're free to contact them if you feel you deserve a refund."

By the way, most players don't know (even though it's printed right on the board) that the actual fee for a singles qualifier is $120. The LO is supposed to keep a portion of that as an "admin fee". The vast majority of LO's forego their portion of the fee to reduce the cost of the board for their players. In my area, we qualified over 200 players for singles a couple of years ago, before the economy went south. That's over $4000 in income that I gave up to keep my customers' costs down. It's not always about making as much as you can.

That's what I would do. Two options here, get mad or get paid. I'd get paid and then decide whether to remain mad.
 

cuetechasaurus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This happened over two years ago and you're just now posting about it? Sounds like you are still upset - glad you shared your story with us so you can get others perspectives on it (sounds like vast majority are with you on this).

Not so much that I'm upset with it, but it has always bothered me. Left a bad taste in my mouth. In light of that other topic about the APA, it reminded me of this situation. Thought I'd get everyone's opinion on it.
 

cuetechasaurus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Rubyron...He was "eligible" when he paid his entry. It was the fact that he skipped a session or two, that DQ'd him. It is common knowledge that you have to remain active (read: continue playing on a current session team) to participate in Regional and National APA events. That's part of their marketing ploy...keep people playing year-round (not a bad idea, as a business concept...but it hurts people who don't want to play all year). That said...'rules' is 'rules'! I don't agree with the "Sorry" and hangup, but as mentioned, we don't how his comments with the L.O. went either. I think cuetechasaurus is an okay guy, but I've seen a lot more 'whiny' 'pissed-off' attitude players, than I have seen "I could care less" League Operators. As a former L.O. myself, it is certainly not possible to keep track of the eligibility of all single's qualified players, unless you have a really small league area (less than 50 teams)...and it's definitely not the L.O.'s 'responsibility' to notify anybody. The computer program is what spits out ineligible players, not the L.O. themselves. Remember, all local data is sent in to the national office, on a weekly basis, and I believe (you current L.O.'s correct me if I'm wrong) that's where the DQ's are initially generated.

Scott, the LO's attitude on the phone with me wasn't terrible. She mentioned she was in a hurry when the person who answered told her who was calling and why. She sounded more like she had heard my story a million times before.

Here is my big problem-

They allowed me to either pay right when I won the MVP tournament, which was half a year away from the singles regional event, or I could pay on the day of the regional. Being a good sport, I paid promptly.

There are two scenarios that bother me-

Lets say someone else wins the MVP tournament, decides to pay on the day of the regional event, does NOT get DQ'd, but on the day of the regional, he gets flaky and decides not to play. He also took up a spot that the APA could have given to another player, had he said he would not play a bit earlier. That's also $100 less going to the regional event. This guy gets to save $100, but someone like me, who really wanted to play, gets shafted?

Or, lets say someone else wins the MVP tournament, decides to pay half a year later at the regional event, but in a couple of months receives a DQ notice in the mail just like me. He also gets to hang on to his hundred bucks.

I feel swindled here.
 

akaTrigger

Hi!
Silver Member
Not so much that I'm upset with it, but it has always bothered me. Left a bad taste in my mouth. In light of that other topic about the APA, it reminded me of this situation. Thought I'd get everyone's opinion on it.

And I am glad you did! Others perspectives can be very helpful.
 

APA Operator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is my big problem-

They allowed me to either pay right when I won the MVP tournament, which was half a year away from the singles regional event, or I could pay on the day of the regional. Being a good sport, I paid promptly.

There are two scenarios that bother me-

Lets say someone else wins the MVP tournament, decides to pay on the day of the regional event, does NOT get DQ'd, but on the day of the regional, he gets flaky and decides not to play. He also took up a spot that the APA could have given to another player, had he said he would not play a bit earlier. That's also $100 less going to the regional event. This guy gets to save $100, but someone like me, who really wanted to play, gets shafted?

Or, lets say someone else wins the MVP tournament, decides to pay half a year later at the regional event, but in a couple of months receives a DQ notice in the mail just like me. He also gets to hang on to his hundred bucks.

I feel swindled here.
See, now I think you're just misremembering. NOBODY gets to pay on the day of the regional. You might be given a few weeks, but that's all. APA has a deadline two weeks after the close of the qualifying window (June 15 for the Fall Regional and November 30 for the Spring Regional) by which all boards must be processed and sent in. Anything that comes in past the deadline doesn't even make it into the next regional. The LO is billed immediately for whatever is sent in.

Sooooo, either you are remembering it wrong, or your LO is paying money out of her own pocket to cover the cost of the boards until her players can pay her. If that's the case, and one of your two scenarios happens, guess who's out a hundred bucks?
 

cuetechasaurus

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
See, now I think you're just misremembering. NOBODY gets to pay on the day of the regional. You might be given a few weeks, but that's all. APA has a deadline two weeks after the close of the qualifying window (June 15 for the Fall Regional and November 30 for the Spring Regional) by which all boards must be processed and sent in. Anything that comes in past the deadline doesn't even make it into the next regional. The LO is billed immediately for whatever is sent in.

Sooooo, either you are remembering it wrong, or your LO is paying money out of her own pocket to cover the cost of the boards until her players can pay her. If that's the case, and one of your two scenarios happens, guess who's out a hundred bucks?

I probably was mistaken, but can you clarify-Do you mean you have a deadline to pay two weeks after winning the initial MVP tournament, two weeks after a player receives a notice of being DQ'd, or two weeks before the MVP regional event?

Either way, do you not think it's fair that I should have gotten a check for my entry fee along with my DQ notice in the mail?
 
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