my thoughts on pool

[mark tadd]

this is a post in respons to another post. ive copied and pasted it here
would like to hear your thoughts.

the post that i posted had nothing to do with call all shots,no 9 ball only it was combined with call your next shot. calling all shots without calling your next pocket is only small edge for good players. my reason for this post was not to penalize great players , it was to keep them great players . but the rulles bhave made it easyer for medium to good players to go hill hiil with great players. to me this is a insult to great players who have put many years of practice into the game just to have the rules make it so close that they cant make a living because they lost two hill hill matches to two good players. to me thats rediculous. does tiger lose golf to a good player ? or anyother sport does this happen. i say let everyone that wants to be a great player travel the same road as the great players did . lets go back to longer races , better payouts, trask texes express rules and play hard put in your hours and time ,gain knowledge and go get em. there is no easy way to become a great player but whoever came up with no texas express rules and shorter races less payouts are sure not making it something strive for. they seemed to make it easier for people to place when if the rules were different ,the races longer , the pressure of getting in the top 12 or so would mean no money they may have not placed at all. i think that the playes in the next generation if they do not make some adjustments in money and format may not play as good as the players you see now. what incentive is there? how can they get better if all they have to do is get in the top 24 or 32 in a 64 man tourny to get paid? i think in the next 20 years if conditions dont change you will not see the talent you see now . theres really no incentive for someone to get good because just when he is getting their............. he has to get a job

 

[Celtic]

I made a post on your other thread, long one. Asia is going to smoke America in the next 20 years in every way with regards to pool. They will have the money, they will have the best tour, they will produce the best players. Europe will be distant second and America will be sucking hind tit. The only top players America has are the ones that came up through the ranks when the game was big in America. Archer, Strickland, you, these players are not gonna last for ever. Take a look at the world juniors this year, a 15 year Asian old kid put a 6-pack on a Canadian and beat him 11-3. The Americans were all long gone by that point. Then the Asian 6-pack runner loses to another 15 year old Asian in the finals who broke better then Bustamente already. America is not producing talent like that, not even close, not even a little. America is so far off that kind of talent pool it is not even funny and the fact that these guys are all over in Asia sparring with each other and getting nerves of steel and getting used to running huge numbers of racks is going to make them demolish the world in the near future.

The game, yeah it has to change. Your idea of calling the next ball and pocket is OK, but the non-pool playing public we have to cater to wont like it. I still think 15 ball rotation with a single point for each ball, called ball is the way to go. That is a HARD game, it uses all the balls (which is important to get Joe Public playing due to bar tables and this is one major reason 9-ball fails to catch on), and it has a score component which the public like, they like seeing points, not games won. Look at all the sports out there, hockey, football, basketball, bowling, points equal stats, and the USA public like stats in their sports. 15 ball rotation makes the bst players the best, the good palyers wont beat the best players in the game, it is a game that will make the cream rise to the top. We should not try to fix 9-ball, it would be a bandaid fix to a broken arm. We need to lose 9-ball and get back to a 15 ball game that challenges the pro's with intricate shape play, smart safety strategy, and difficult shot making. The Phillippines has it right, they just dont score the game well, you need to make it a point a ball instead of points based on ball number.

What do you actually think of 15 ball rotation taking over? You were a pro, do you see any problems with the basic game as I described? Would the pro's out there like a game that threw all the balls into the game, rewarded a huge break, and ran on a point system rather then games won, where you rerack the balls and keep breaking and running points to reach the winning score before your opponent. It brings back a straight pool like scoring system, it uses the 9-ball like rotation format of hitting the lowest numbered ball, it uses called ball rules, it uses all the balls in a rack and lends itself to coin op tables in bars where 8 points wins in a single rack game. It just seems to me like a no brainer perfect game but people usually dont mention it in a positive or negative fashion when I post it. I thought this up years ago and posted it and over and over these posts start up trying to ditch 9-ball and over and over again I still see this rotation game with 15 balls as being the best option out there for a major shift in the game.

 

[mark tadd]

I made a post on your other thread, long one. Asia is going to smoke America in the next 20 years in every way with regards to pool. They will have the money, they will have the best tour, they will produce the best players. Europe will be distant second and America will be sucking hind tit. The only top players America has are the ones that came up through the ranks when the game was big in America. Archer, Strickland, you, these players are not gonna last for ever. Take a look at the world juniors this year, a 15 year Asian old kid put a 6-pack on a Canadian and beat him 11-3. The Americans were all long gone by that point. Then the Asian 6-pack runner loses to another 15 year old Asian in the finals who broke better then Bustamente already. America is not producing talent like that, not even close, not even a little. America is so far off that kind of talent pool it is not even funny and the fact that these guys are all over in Asia sparring with each other and getting nerves of steel and getting used to running huge numbers of racks is going to make them demolish the world in the near future.

The game, yeah it has to change. Your idea of calling the next ball and pocket is OK, but the non-pool playing public we have to cater to wont like it. I still think 15 ball rotation with a single point for each ball, called ball is the way to go. That is a HARD game, it uses all the balls (which is important to get Joe Public playing due to bar tables and this is one major reason 9-ball fails to catch on), and it has a score component which the public like, they like seeing points, not games won. Look at all the sports out there, hockey, football, basketball, bowling, points equal stats, and the USA public like stats in their sports. 15 ball rotation makes the bst players the best, the good palyers wont beat the best players in the game, it is a game that will make the cream rise to the top. We should not try to fix 9-ball, it would be a bandaid fix to a broken arm. We need to lose 9-ball and get back to a 15 ball game that challenges the pro's with intricate shape play, smart safety strategy, and difficult shot making. The Phillippines has it right, they just dont score the game well, you need to make it a point a ball instead of points based on ball number.

What do you actually think of 15 ball rotation taking over? You were a pro, do you see any problems with the basic game as I described? Would the pro's out there like a game that threw all the balls into the game, rewarded a huge break, and ran on a point system rather then games won, where you rerack the balls and keep breaking and running points to reach the winning score before your opponent. It brings back a straight pool like scoring system, it uses the 9-ball like rotation format of hitting the lowest numbered ball, it uses called ball rules, it uses all the balls in a rack and lends itself to coin op tables in bars where 8 points wins in a single rack game. It just seems to me like a no brainer perfect game but people usually dont mention it in a positive or negative fashion when I post it. I thought this up years ago and posted it and over and over these posts start up trying to ditch 9-ball and over and over again I still see this rotation game with 15 balls as being the best option out there for a major shift in the game.

i agree unless the money gets better here the game is doomed no incentive!
i think i can play with all of them but is it worth it to come back? but because
i love the game and im trapped because i put so much time in. its better than a 10.00 hr job i guess. its so sad....................

 

[wayne]

I was talking to someone the other day and they said there was talk of going to a 10 ball rack where the tenth ball has no number on it. After the break this ball is removed from the table and the game is nine ball. The idea is to get rid of the big advantage of the break but to keep the matches from dragging on. They said the blank ball would be sold to advertisers. It may have some merit as a step up from 9 ball.

The other game that would be great for TV, and a fun tournament where you really see individual talent was the Total Offense Pool that Joe Porper and John Bryant invented. In this game the exact same layout is played by every player in the tournament. It is just how many shots does it take you to run the 10 balls in order. No defense just total offense. They had dozens of different layouts some simple, some very complex. Even the complex ones some players were getting out in 10 shots. However a position error or a miss or a failure in breaking up a cluster could cost you dearly.

Wayne

 

[mark tadd]

I was talking to someone the other day and they said there was talk of going to a 10 ball rack where the tenth ball has no number on it. After the break this ball is removed from the table and the game is nine ball. The idea is to get rid of the big advantage of the break but to keep the matches from dragging on. They said the blank ball would be sold to advertisers. It may have some merit as a step up from 9 ball.

The other game that would be great for TV, and a fun tournament where you really see individual talent was the Total Offense Pool that Joe Porper and John Bryant invented. In this game the exact same layout is played by every player in the tournament. It is just how many shots does it take you to run the 10 balls in order. No defense just total offense. They had dozens of different layouts some simple, some very complex. Even the complex ones some players were getting out in 10 shots. However a position error or a miss or a failure in breaking up a cluster could cost you dearly.

Wayne

id say play 15 ball like 9 ball. 15 ball money ball and thats it . would be tough

 

[macguy]

i agree unless the money gets better here the game is doomed no incentive!
i think i can play with all of them but is it worth it to come back? but because
i love the game and im trapped because i put so much time in. its better than a 10.00 hr job i guess. its so sad....................

Quote
"i agree unless the money gets better here the game is doomed no incentive! "

What, are you crazy? Pool is extremely popular and enjoyed by millions of people. It is not a fad and not going away any time soon. Just because you can't make a living at it, you think the sport is doomed? You know, even a $10.00 an hour is $20,800.00 maybe with some benefits and a future. More then most of the players playing made last year.

 

[christyd]

This should be interesting

 

[sjm]

The other game that would be great for TV, and a fun tournament where you really see individual talent was the Total Offense Pool that Joe Porper and John Bryant invented. In this game the exact same layout is played by every player in the tournament. It is just how many shots does it take you to run the 10 balls in order. No defense just total offense. They had dozens of different layouts some simple, some very complex. Even the complex ones some players were getting out in 10 shots. However a position error or a miss or a failure in breaking up a cluster could cost you dearly.

Take defense, kicking and two way shots out of nine ball and you've taken out some of the most interesting parts. Offense-only nine ball wouldn't establish who the best player is any more than a home run hitting contest establishes who the best hitter is. Remove the tactics and methods by which one side maximizes the number of opportunities earned and minimizes the number of opportunities of the opposition, and every sport becomes ridicuously boring. Every sport worth watching has defense and strategy in it, and stripping pool of these elements would, most definitely, put pool on my list of sports not worth watching.

 

[Celtic]

Quote
"i agree unless the money gets better here the game is doomed no incentive! "

What, are you crazy? Pool is extremely popular and enjoyed by millions of people. It is not a fad and not going away any time soon. Just because you can't make a living at it, you think the sport is doomed? You know, even a $10.00 an hour is $20,800.00 maybe with some benefits and a future. More then most of the players playing made last year.

Mark has alot better option then that I think. And I may get a sparring partner!

 

[mark tadd]

Quote
"i agree unless the money gets better here the game is doomed no incentive! "

What, are you crazy? Pool is extremely popular and enjoyed by millions of people. It is not a fad and not going away any time soon. Just because you can't make a living at it, you think the sport is doomed? You know, even a $10.00 an hour is $20,800.00 maybe with some benefits and a future. More then most of the players playing made last year.

i agree it is enjoyed by millions, by millions of people in the bars, homes pool rooms???????
what does that have to do with the fact that there is no money in it?
so mabye i should own the pool room and the bar then pool is profitable.
by the way macguy are you a road play or have been on the tour? what do you do for a living? if it is work and you are one of the million people giving that opinion then i understand your point. but im talking from someone who was out there for many years . not from a collage person or buissiness mans point of veiw who only plays once in a while and had no intrest of being the best but are content being the local pro. and who said i cant make a living at it? when i wanted to do well all i did was practice and i did well when i didnt play at times i didnt do well. so obviously you do not know me to make that statement. and if you are content to making 10.00 an hour for something you spent half your life doing( which is not true i dont know how you can say that and be proud or serious) then good luck making your bills. i however dont understand that thinking unless it was just bordom and wanting to debate, when you and i know that if you were at a job for 2 years with no raise yet alone 20 years you would find another job . dont you think someone who spend 20or30 years of their life trying to perfect the game, giving other people incentive to be great at something, supporting poolrooms should at least get a raise once in a while . all other jobs and sports seem to. well if i come back i or we pool players still have to cover all our expenses unless you can get a good sponser,pay own health insurance, no retirement.........................


conclusion reached.......... pool is not a good life time investment for most.
and i mean that in all seriuosness. cheers

 

[mark tadd]

Quote
"i agree unless the money gets better here the game is doomed no incentive! "

What, are you crazy? Pool is extremely popular and enjoyed by millions of people. It is not a fad and not going away any time soon. Just because you can't make a living at it, you think the sport is doomed? You know, even a $10.00 an hour is $20,800.00 maybe with some benefits and a future. More then most of the players playing made last year.

also when i said pool is doomed i didnt mean the game itself obviously it will always be around , so will checkers,hopscotch,vidiogames,darts,marbles,horseshoes,spiting contests.but it would seem it would be hard to make a living at these games. im talking making a living at pool.

 

[christyd]

I don't believe Macguy is just bored or wants to debate. I think he is jealous.

 

[piglit]

...checkers,hopscotch,vidiogames,darts,marbles,horseshoes,spiting contests.but it would seem it would be hard to make a living at these games...

Yeah! I'd take pool over all those!!

My opinion on the real point: Pool players get paid exactly what they're worth and their worth is determined by what the pool world will pay them.

Some people play for a living, some work. Too bad for us, pool players are players and the pay corresponds.

-piga

 

[mark tadd]

i agree it is enjoyed by millions, by millions of people in the bars, homes pool rooms???????
what does that have to do with the fact that there is no money in it?
so mabye i should own the pool room and the bar then pool is profitable.
by the way macguy are you a road play or have been on the tour? what do you do for a living? if it is work and you are one of the million people giving that opinion then i understand your point. but im talking from someone who was out there for many years . not from a collage person or buissiness mans point of veiw who only plays once in a while and had no intrest of being the best but are content being the local pro. and who said i cant make a living at it? when i wanted to do well all i did was practice and i did well when i didnt play at times i didnt do well. so obviously you do not know me to make that statement. and if you are content to making 10.00 an hour for something you spent half your life doing( which is not true i dont know how you can say that and be proud or serious) then good luck making your bills. i however dont understand that thinking unless it was just bordom and wanting to debate, when you and i know that if you were at a job for 2 years with no raise yet alone 20 years you would find another job . dont you think someone who spend 20or30 years of their life trying to perfect the game, giving other people incentive to be great at something, supporting poolrooms should at least get a raise once in a while . all other jobs and sports seem to. well if i come back i or we pool players still have to cover all our expenses unless you can get a good sponser,pay own health insurance, no retirement.........................


conclusion reached.......... pool is not a good life time investment for most.
and i mean that in all seriuosness. cheers

i hope i didnt offend anyone by my forwardness but this is real life and if i can help someone in this game, by either advice on how to play or advice on if she/ he shoud stay, i want to be honest and straight forward about it. obviously this is a subject close to my heart because ive invested so much time in it in the past and have had many expirences good and bad i think the game is very addicting because of the challenge and because there are very nice and funny people in the game at times. but its seems to attract people with alot of heart which is a good thing .with heart you can do very well in life if you pick the right investment or trade . pool is tough even if you gamble which i did for many years. there is no guarantee you will win. and if you bet high you might lose all your bankroll. if you bet low or medium you make no money. you must win almost most of the time 90% to stay alive.if you do not work where is the money comming from to keep you alive? you will be forced to go back home live with parents or friends till you pump back up to go back out on the road. or borrow till you owe everyone.unless you or parents have alot of money that would work. but most dont have that luxury. when i was comming up in pool you had a chance to make it gambling. then all of the sudden everyone want the nuts and then all there was is tournys. and thats the way it is and will always be from here out. yes every now and then some guy goes nuts somewhere and backs everyone or plays him self and a hand full of players. and get some of the pool world pumped up but thats rare and only some get pumped up.that is why i had so much gamble as does keith , morro and many others is because that how it was 22 years ago.and further back we would just get up and gamble . i did through all stages of getting better and rarely asked for weight if at all now players ask for weight even if they dont need it?the players back then had more gamble back then that is why they played better and still do. i could go make a score and support myself and eat,pay pool time or whatever and still have money till the next trip. how do you guys do it now? you have to work and how do you find time to play? i got good by going on the road an playing tough action . how can you do that if you are stuck in a town working?playing after work tired and mabye a family who hates that you go to work and then play pool all night. that wont last for long if you have a wife or girlfriend.so you end up quiting and there goes your dream.now i know there are still guys doing it but i guarantee if you ask them they will tell you its tough if they have been out there for many years.but they will also say they love it because they love the game . its addicting and now there trapped.i love the game to its just hard to make a living at it. but they have to sacrifice having a family and kids unless they are fortunate enough to find a woman will support him in his dream and thats rare cause they have dreams to right? most guys or women who are out there on the road are usually single or have a lucky mate. or go from one relationship to another. but some like that life stye i did but there is no guarantee you will be the efrens and the archers. and as time goes on it wears on you and you say what have i got to show for it. look at archer a guy who has won many tourneys in the last 12 years . he was like the tiger woods of pool and mabye still is but at that time he was. a guy that has to win almost every tourny to live above averge is sad to me. with that tallent he should of been a millionare years ago . so my conclusion is if you like to be single and like to travel,have many hardships in life not knowing what to expect from month to month , year to year then i say go for it but make sure you have the talent for it. also it pays to have friends ,family to help you out because with no job and a 2000 bank roll you will need them sooner or later. somethings just happen when you must win it seems no matter what you do you dont. there is luck involved in pool on and off the table to be succesful. much of my suffering to some degree was self inflicked i never had any controll when it came to money management but most of that had to do with poker not pool.. well ive said enough good luck to you all no matter what you do. if there is any advice i can give i will try . my email is tademy777@hotmail.com . but i do respect all answers good or bad just be ready for an honest response . then we can go out for lunch on me......mark

 

[mark tadd]

i hope i didnt offend anyone by my forwardness but this is real life and if i can help someone in this game, by either advice on how to play or advice on if she/ he shoud stay, i want to be honest and straight forward about it. obviously this is a subject close to my heart because ive invested so much time in it in the past and have had many expirences good and bad i think the game is very addicting because of the challenge and because there are very nice and funny people in the game at times. but its seems to attract people with alot of heart which is a good thing .with heart you can do very well in life if you pick the right investment or trade . pool is tough even if you gamble which i did for many years. there is no guarantee you will win. and if you bet high you might lose all your bankroll. if you bet low or medium you make no money. you must win almost most of the time 90% to stay alive.if you do not work where is the money comming from to keep you alive? you will be forced to go back home live with parents or friends till you pump back up to go back out on the road. or borrow till you owe everyone.unless you or parents have alot of money that would work. but most dont have that luxury. when i was comming up in pool you had a chance to make it gambling. then all of the sudden everyone want the nuts and then all there was is tournys. and thats the way it is and will always be from here out. yes every now and then some guy goes nuts somewhere and backs everyone or plays him self and a hand full of players. and get some of the pool world pumped up but thats rare and only some get pumped up.that is why i had so much gamble as does keith , morro and many others is because that how it was 22 years ago.and further back we would just get up and gamble . i did through all stages of getting better and rarely asked for weight if at all now players ask for weight even if they dont need it?the players back then had more gamble back then that is why they played better and still do. i could go make a score and support myself and eat,pay pool time or whatever and still have money till the next trip. how do you guys do it now? you have to work and how do you find time to play? i got good by going on the road an playing tough action . how can you do that if you are stuck in a town working?playing after work tired and mabye a family who hates that you go to work and then play pool all night. that wont last for long if you have a wife or girlfriend.so you end up quiting and there goes your dream.now i know there are still guys doing it but i guarantee if you ask them they will tell you its tough if they have been out there for many years.but they will also say they love it because they love the game . its addicting and now there trapped.i love the game to its just hard to make a living at it. but they have to sacrifice having a family and kids unless they are fortunate enough to find a woman will support him in his dream and thats rare cause they have dreams to right? most guys or women who are out there on the road are usually single or have a lucky mate. or go from one relationship to another. but some like that life stye i did but there is no guarantee you will be the efrens and the archers. and as time goes on it wears on you and you say what have i got to show for it. look at archer a guy who has won many tourneys in the last 12 years . he was like the tiger woods of pool and mabye still is but at that time he was. a guy that has to win almost every tourny to live above averge is sad to me. with that tallent he should of been a millionare years ago . so my conclusion is if you like to be single and like to travel,have many hardships in life not knowing what to expect from month to month , year to year then i say go for it but make sure you have the talent for it. also it pays to have friends ,family to help you out because with no job and a 2000 bank roll you will need them sooner or later. somethings just happen when you must win it seems no matter what you do you dont. there is luck involved in pool on and off the table to be succesful. much of my suffering to some degree was self inflicked i never had any controll when it came to money management but most of that had to do with poker not pool.. well ive said enough good luck to you all no matter what you do. if there is any advice i can give i will try . my email is tademy777@hotmail.com . but i do respect all answers good or bad just be ready for an honest response . then we can go out for lunch on me......mark

i really didnt plan on saying so much but it just came out. i think i will write a book called (the life of a pool hustler) real life hardships and good times hmmm...............

 

[macguy]

i agree it is enjoyed by millions, by millions of people in the bars, homes pool rooms???????
what does that have to do with the fact that there is no money in it?
so mabye i should own the pool room and the bar then pool is profitable.
by the way macguy are you a road play or have been on the tour? what do you do for a living? if it is work and you are one of the million people giving that opinion then i understand your point. but im talking from someone who was out there for many years . not from a collage person or buissiness mans point of veiw who only plays once in a while and had no intrest of being the best but are content being the local pro. and who said i cant make a living at it? when i wanted to do well all i did was practice and i did well when i didnt play at times i didnt do well. so obviously you do not know me to make that statement. and if you are content to making 10.00 an hour for something you spent half your life doing( which is not true i dont know how you can say that and be proud or serious) then good luck making your bills. i however dont understand that thinking unless it was just bordom and wanting to debate, when you and i know that if you were at a job for 2 years with no raise yet alone 20 years you would find another job . dont you think someone who spend 20or30 years of their life trying to perfect the game, giving other people incentive to be great at something, supporting poolrooms should at least get a raise once in a while . all other jobs and sports seem to. well if i come back i or we pool players still have to cover all our expenses unless you can get a good sponser,pay own health insurance, no retirement.........................


conclusion reached.......... pool is not a good life time investment for most.
and i mean that in all seriuosness. cheers

quote
"i know that if you were at a job for 2 years with no raise yet alone 20 years you would find another job ."

I am afraid that is the answer.

 

[drivermaker]

i really didnt plan on saying so much but it just came out. i think i will write a book called (the life of a pool hustler) real life hardships and good times hmmm...............

Everytime a book like that comes out, it sells. I'll buy...

However, in your posts you seem to be venting in such a way that you're still weighing your options. So, what's the verdict....jump back in to get involved
in a lifestyle that probably won't go too far in the long run, (especially if you don't gamble to put food on the table) or go down a different path, and if anything leave pool as a sideline?

 

[mark tadd]

Everytime a book like that comes out, it sells. I'll buy...

However, in your posts you seem to be venting in such a way that you're still weighing your options. So, what's the verdict....jump back in to get involved
in a lifestyle that probably won't go too far in the long run, (especially if you don't gamble to put food on the table) or go down a different path, and if anything leave pool as a sideline?

well i might play pool but if i do or dont i will have something to fall back on.
im really just trying to give advice that mabye someone that is thinking what to do in life involving pool, will have more info for their decission. i wished someone would have told me when i was getting started. but it wasnt the same then there was a chance. now seems very tough and i dont see advice about the hardships of road life except mabey how expensive it is . i probaly will play close tournys around this state if i get a sponser then mabye other states. but make no mistakes about it i love the game there just are things that make it difficult to stay in it. and be happy

 

[macguy]

I don't believe Macguy is just bored or wants to debate. I think he is jealous.

I am not sure what I would be jealous of. I have hung out with many of the best players in the country and most I've known are broke owe me money and this includes world champions. I can appreciate their skill and commitment to the game but would never be jealous, simply because although I was a good player there is no chance I would ever have sacrificed what they have to be able to play at that level and I am sure I may have been able to at one time. I feel bad for them that they can't make a living at what they do but that is the case with many things, archery, swimming, gymnastics you name it. I am not sure what the value of a pool player is and why they would be paid any large sum of money to play? It is not really a spectator sport and is not product driven. I can't imagine where the money would come from that they think they should be making. They want sponsors but they have nothing to bring to the table. Believe me, if you could show a sponsor how it was to his benefit to be involved in pool, he would jump on board, it would be hard to keep him away. Do you have an answer?

 

[mark tadd]

I am not sure what I would be jealous of. I have hung out with many of the best players in the country and most I've known are broke owe me money and this includes world champions. I can appreciate their skill and commitment to the game but would never be jealous, simply because although I was a good player there is no chance I would ever have sacrificed what they have to be able to play at that level and I am sure I may have been able to at one time. I feel bad for them that they can't make a living at what they do but that is the case with many things, archery, swimming, gymnastics you name it. I am not sure what the value of a pool player is and why they would be paid any large sum of money to play? It is not really a spectator sport and is not product driven. I can't imagine where the money would come from that they think they should be making. They want sponsors but they have nothing to bring to the table. Believe me, if you could show a sponsor how it was to his benefit to be involved in pool, he would jump on board, it would be hard to keep him away. Do you have an answer?

no doubt thats why i wrote the other responses. i agree