New cue, Bender or Capone

[cbi1000]

Hello everyone, i'm interested in a new cue. One with 16 points or more with veeners. I'm down to two cue makers; Capone and Bender. The only down side i have is i haven't hit with either one! I have owned southwest, coker, schon, McDaniel, and Gilbert. I like the hit of my Gilbert and Southwest the best so i'm after that feel again. Please if you have owned a Bender or Capone and could give me some idea of how they compare to some of the cues i've listed please post. Let me no about balance points, hit (feel), and craftmanship of cue.

Also, if you have any other cue maker suggestions please feel free to drop some names.

Thanks,

 

[Worminator]

Why don't you call both of those cuemakers and talk to them about what specs you like in a cue. They are both top notch cuemakers and great guys. Either maker will build you a great cue to your specs that will play well. Do expect a significant wait though, 3-6 months minimum.

 

[ironchef.]

cbi,

My very first custom cue was a Capone and it was a very nice playing cue. The only reason why I sold it was because it was a little heavy for me. Construction wise, Capone does a very nice job and I was very pleased with it. I currently own a Mike Bender and Omega/DPK and LOVE them both. I think Bender's and Omega/DPK' s play awesome and if you like your Southwest, I think you'll like the Bender.

My Bender is an ebony forearm, so its a little forward weighted because of the density characteristics of ebony. Hits are subjective, but both the Bender and Omega/DPK hit very nicely, a very good stiff hit. Bender's points are one of the sharpest and most even in the business. I highly recommend going with the Bender, I think his current wait list is up to 2 years, but well worth the wait.

Another cue maker to consider is Skip Weston. Excellent construction with super sharp and even point work. I recommend his piloted joints, they hit "better" than his flat-faced joint in my opinion. His wait is about 6-8 months.

 

[TiNy]

My personal favourite playing cue of all time is a Capone. My second favourite playing cue of all time is my friend's Capone. His construction is first rate, well balanced, pointworks are flawless (at least for 6pointers). Breaks better than my predator BK too when using a Moori Q tip. The only flaw is that it's just a plain jane, and not a hoppe style.

I have not tried Bender cues before, so I wouldn't know how they play. But I'll second Ironchef's opinion of Skip Weston too. His pointwork is so perfect, it's almost unreal. Or maybe you can try Bryan Mordt..he hangs around this forum too..just do a search for his handle BryanMordt. But I'm not sure he does 16 pointers..in fact unless 8 of the points are in the buttsleeve, I don't think I've seen a 16pointer forearm with veneers before in my life.

Eddie Chin

 

[classiccues]

My personal favourite playing cue of all time is a Capone. My second favourite playing cue of all time is my friend's Capone. His construction is first rate, well balanced, pointworks are flawless (at least for 6pointers). Breaks better than my predator BK too when using a Moori Q tip. The only flaw is that it's just a plain jane, and not a hoppe style.

I have not tried Bender cues before, so I wouldn't know how they play. But I'll second Ironchef's opinion of Skip Weston too. His pointwork is so perfect, it's almost unreal. Or maybe you can try Bryan Mordt..he hangs around this forum too..just do a search for his handle BryanMordt. But I'm not sure he does 16 pointers..in fact unless 8 of the points are in the buttsleeve, I don't think I've seen a 16pointer forearm with veneers before in my life.

Eddie Chin

Eddie,
Yes you have. At least in the mind of Mike Bender. Since he counts his "veneers" as points. Which IMHO is very misleading. That would make a 4 point, 4 veneer Skip a 20 pointer. 4 veneers, and the point x 4. I sold a 32 point Skip which I believe is the most he has done.

Joe

Joe

 

[spanky981]

bender or capone

Eddie,
Yes you have. At least in the mind of Mike Bender. Since he counts his "veneers" as points. Which IMHO is very misleading. That would make a 4 point, 4 veneer Skip a 20 pointer. 4 veneers, and the point x 4. I sold a 32 point Skip which I believe is the most he has done.

Joe

Joe

Joe,

Bender counts veneers as veneers.. He does not count veneers and points. When a cue has 20 points it is because he actually splices 20 points.. He does not use veneers on those cues.. They are spliced recuts over the point that you see.. If you look at a 20 point Bender you will see no veneer seams. The point that you think is a veneer is actually a full point spliced in..

You can buy Bender cues with veneers or with recut points.. The recuts look better and are harder to make because he is actually splicing the points over the points already spliced. It is a technique he started and many cuemakers are doing it today. He makes the cue look crisper without veneer seams.

Mike

 

[spanky981]

bender or capone

Hello everyone, i'm interested in a new cue. One with 16 points or more with veeners. I'm down to two cue makers; Capone and Bender. The only down side i have is i haven't hit with either one! I have owned southwest, coker, schon, McDaniel, and Gilbert. I like the hit of my Gilbert and Southwest the best so i'm after that feel again. Please if you have owned a Bender or Capone and could give me some idea of how they compare to some of the cues i've listed please post. Let me no about balance points, hit (feel), and craftmanship of cue.

Also, if you have any other cue maker suggestions please feel free to drop some names.

Thanks,

I think Bender and Capone are both good hitting cues.. If you like the hit of a southwest I agree with a previous post that the Bender is more like a southwest in hit and feel.

If you are interested in buying a Bender please send me a PM.. I do have one a brand new one coming from Mike in next tuesday.
Also the wait time on Bender cues is about 3 years and sometimes more.


Mike

 

[classiccues]

Joe,

Bender counts veneers as veneers.. He does not count veneers and points. When a cue has 20 points it is because he actually splices 20 points.. He does not use veneers on those cues.. They are spliced recuts over the point that you see.. If you look at a 20 point Bender you will see no veneer seams. The point that you think is a veneer is actually a full point spliced in..

You can buy Bender cues with veneers or with recut points.. The recuts look better and are harder to make because he is actually splicing the points over the points already spliced. It is a technique he started and many cuemakers are doing it today. He makes the cue look crisper without veneer seams.

Mike

Thats why veneers was in parethesis..

Joe

 

[classiccues]

Joe,

Bender counts veneers as veneers.. He does not count veneers and points. When a cue has 20 points it is because he actually splices 20 points.. He does not use veneers on those cues.. They are spliced recuts over the point that you see.. If you look at a 20 point Bender you will see no veneer seams. The point that you think is a veneer is actually a full point spliced in..

You can buy Bender cues with veneers or with recut points.. The recuts look better and are harder to make because he is actually splicing the points over the points already spliced. It is a technique he started and many cuemakers are doing it today. He makes the cue look crisper without veneer seams.

Mike

One other note...

I don't think anyone can claim they started the recut techinique. Especially Bender, there has been recent photos of some 1960-1970 Rocky Tillis cues that claim to be recuts. Which would obviously pre-date Mike.

One thing is clear, it definately looks better than gappy veneer points.

Joe (--I won't even bring in Skip since he doesn't "recut" his points.. but his hardwood technique started in '92

 

[merylane]

hey joe

hey joe did you see my ? about balabushka in the for sale section?

as far as veneered or not veneered points go, the recut type are much easier to do than veneered, and that includes making the L's before glue up, which are technically not recut points
if anyone disagrees with this, just compare the two types made from the same cuemaker and you decide which is better ........
in reallity shouldnt said cuemaker be able to execute them equally?????
why not?????
most cue makers dont like the pain in the but that veneered points are and on top of that they arent happy with thier results so they do somthing they feel they can execute better.
if you compare the two, a veneered blank would have twice as many pieces for the same affect not to mention having to worry about the mitre.
and if you lapped the veneers like SW then you would have twice the pieces and twice the cuts. so anyone who says different is just pulling your leg and probably cant execute veneered points properly, but still want the traditional look so they have to come up with a trick to create the allusion.
whether theyr panto'd or recut or lapped or "L"d they are just trying to create the allusion of veneered spliced points. and on top of it they will try to convince you its better......

One other note...

I don't think anyone can claim they started the recut techinique. Especially Bender, there has been recent photos of some 1960-1970 Rocky Tillis cues that claim to be recuts. Which would obviously pre-date Mike.

One thing is clear, it definately looks better than gappy veneer points.

Joe (--I won't even bring in Skip since he doesn't "recut" his points.. but his hardwood technique started in '92

 

[spanky981]

One other note...

I don't think anyone can claim they started the recut techinique. Especially Bender, there has been recent photos of some 1960-1970 Rocky Tillis cues that claim to be recuts. Which would obviously pre-date Mike.

One thing is clear, it definately looks better than gappy veneer points.

Joe (--I won't even bring in Skip since he doesn't "recut" his points.. but his hardwood technique started in '92

Joe,

Thanks for the information.. I didnt notice the quote around veneers.. Skip makes wonderful points.. His use of hardwoods is awesome.

I have never heard or seen of recuts until Bender.. You may be right that others have done it before him.. Thanks for your information..

Just wanted to clarify why Mike calls them points.. Whether its easier than making veneers I guess I wouldn't know since I never did it..
I my opinion that with no seam they sure look cleaner..

Mike

 

[spanky981]

hey joe did you see my ? about balabushka in the for sale section?

as far as veneered or not veneered points go, the recut type are much easier to do than veneered, and that includes making the L's before glue up, which are technically not recut points
if anyone disagrees with this, just compare the two types made from the same cuemaker and you decide which is better ........
in reallity shouldnt said cuemaker be able to execute them equally?????
why not?????
most cue makers dont like the pain in the but that veneered points are and on top of that they arent happy with thier results so they do somthing they feel they can execute better.
if you compare the two, a veneered blank would have twice as many pieces for the same affect not to mention having to worry about the mitre.
and if you lapped the veneers like SW then you would have twice the pieces and twice the cuts. so anyone who says different is just pulling your leg and probably cant execute veneered points properly, but still want the traditional look so they have to come up with a trick to create the allusion.
whether theyr panto'd or recut or lapped or "L"d they are just trying to create the allusion of veneered spliced points. and on top of it they will try to convince you its better......

We were talking about Mike Bender and he does veneered points and recut points.. He started with veneered points at Omega and continues to do them today with Bender cues.. He also does recuts.. I have had many recut pointed Benders and veneered pointed Benders. The point work is great both ways.. Mike does not sell his 5 point cues with 4 veneers as 25 point cues. He sells them as a 5pt cue with 4 veneers..

I assume in your post you were not referring to cuemakers like Mike Bender and James WHite and Paul Mottey who do awesome veneer pts and also do recut points.

Mike

 

[classiccues]

hey joe did you see my ? about balabushka in the for sale section?

as far as veneered or not veneered points go, the recut type are much easier to do than veneered, and that includes making the L's before glue up, which are technically not recut points
if anyone disagrees with this, just compare the two types made from the same cuemaker and you decide which is better ........
in reallity shouldnt said cuemaker be able to execute them equally?????
why not?????
most cue makers dont like the pain in the but that veneered points are and on top of that they arent happy with thier results so they do somthing they feel they can execute better.
if you compare the two, a veneered blank would have twice as many pieces for the same affect not to mention having to worry about the mitre.
and if you lapped the veneers like SW then you would have twice the pieces and twice the cuts. so anyone who says different is just pulling your leg and probably cant execute veneered points properly, but still want the traditional look so they have to come up with a trick to create the allusion.
whether theyr panto'd or recut or lapped or "L"d they are just trying to create the allusion of veneered spliced points. and on top of it they will try to convince you its better......

ML,
Since I don't know, or maybe I do know, who you really are, I won't get into a debate about the points. But I can tell you that the cuemakers that do both, claim recuts are harder then veneered points. Regardless, the guys who do both, Mottey and Bender coming to mind do them both exceptionally great. As far as this lapped L, I have no clue to what it is.

Joe

 

[merylane]

We were talking about Mike Bender and he does veneered points and recut points.. He started with veneered points at Omega and continues to do them today with Bender cues.. He also does recuts.. I have had many recut pointed Benders and veneered pointed Benders. The point work is great both ways.. Mike does not sell his 5 point cues with 4 veneers as 25 point cues. He sells them as a 5pt cue with 4 veneers..

I assume in your post you were not referring to cuemakers like Mike Bender and James WHite and Paul Mottey who do awesome veneer pts and also do recut points.

Mike

mike a couple of cue makers do it prettywell. but still compare them and i think you will see the difference. and also ask your self why so many have stopped? or why they dont do it at all but still try to achieve the look?

 

[classiccues]

as far as veneered or not veneered points go, the recut type are much easier to do than veneered, and that includes making the L's before glue up, which are technically not recut points
if anyone disagrees with this, just compare the two types made from the same cuemaker and you decide which is better ........
in reallity shouldnt said cuemaker be able to execute them equally?????
why not?????
most cue makers dont like the pain in the but that veneered points are and on top of that they arent happy with thier results so they do somthing they feel they can execute better.
if you compare the two, a veneered blank would have twice as many pieces for the same affect not to mention having to worry about the mitre.
and if you lapped the veneers like SW then you would have twice the pieces and twice the cuts. so anyone who says different is just pulling your leg and probably cant execute veneered points properly, but still want the traditional look so they have to come up with a trick to create the allusion.
whether theyr panto'd or recut or lapped or "L"d they are just trying to create the allusion of veneered spliced points. and on top of it they will try to convince you its better......

ML,
One other thing is not true. Although in a four veneer cue you may have multiple colors, but its not assembled in multiple pieces. The veneers, example: black, orange, green and white are glues prior to putting them into a cue. The reality is they are glued flat as a board and inserted in a point assembly as two pieces, plus the actual point. So you only really have 3 pieces to worry about. Where as Skip would have 5 pieces per point. But a true recut has to be cut, glued, turned down, recut, etc.. for multple points.
So there is much more chance of a heavy sided point, or misalignment in this way of cutting.
Anyone who says veneering is tougher probably cannot get the close seam.
If you miter the seam you get the nice down the middle seam if you try the semi - overlap you get the offset looking seam. So the only leg pulling here, is whoever is feeding you your information.

Joe

 

[spanky981]

ML,
Since I don't know, or maybe I do know, who you really are, I won't get into a debate about the points. But I can tell you that the cuemakers that do both, claim recuts are harder then veneered points. Regardless, the guys who do both, Mottey and Bender coming to mind do them both exceptionally great. As far as this lapped L, I have no clue to what it is.

Joe

Joe,

I agree. Jim, Paul and Mike have told me recuts are more work and also cost more money because of wasted wood..

Mike

 

[spanky981]

mike a couple of cue makers do it prettywell. but still compare them and i think you will see the difference. and also ask your self why so many have stopped? or why they dont do it at all but still try to achieve the look?

Compare..I have.. Paul and Jim make some of the best veneered points in the business. There recuts are just as good. Whats to compare..

I dont understand your post about why so many have stopped.. Stopped what and who are you talking about?

 

[merylane]

just think of any cue maker from the 70's or 80' that does not make mitred spliced points any more.

as far as them convincing you that is is more difficult proves my point.

as far as cost goes theyr deffinetly pulling your leg and even if it did cost more the extra $2 is nothing to talk about.
but let me try to figger that out....veneer from woodriver $5 a square foot it takes almost 1 foot per color ... that would be 20 bucks for 4 colors .
i dont know any wood that would have that much cost.
i know snake wood.... but i dont see them re cutting that its all cheaper wood
(price not quality) ebony and wild wood is probably the most expensive theyr using.

 

[spanky981]

just think of any cue maker from the 70's or 80' that does not make mitred spliced points any more.

as far as them convincing you that is is more difficult proves my point.

as far as cost goes theyr deffinetly pulling your leg and even if it did cost more the extra $2 is nothing to talk about.
but let me try to figger that out....veneer from woodriver $5 a square foot it takes almost 1 foot per color ... that would be 20 bucks for 4 colors .
i dont know any wood that would have that much cost.
i know snake wood.... but i dont see them re cutting that its all cheaper wood
(price not quality) ebony and wild wood is probably the most expensive theyr using.

I cant think of any.. Who are you talking about?

 

[merylane]

mmmmm.... boy this is tough bill,dan,dick,david,jerry,paul,tom,gordon,bob

come on you buy thousand dollar cues and you need to ask that.