New Pro-Cut Pocket and DEEP SHELVED Slate on a Brunswick Gold Crown, Anniversary or Centennial !!!!

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Gold Member
Silver Member
I have been asked by quite a few people to "diamondize" a GC, Anny & Centennial over the past 9 years and I decided to do it.

I am having sets of slate cut that are diamond dimensions with Brunswick bolt hole patterns.

So in essence, I am making the option available to buy my restorations that will be very, very close to a Diamond. In fact, if I use Artemis Cushions the difference, in my opinion, will barely be quantifiable.

Anyone with actual experience doing this with actual sets of slate cut and drilled professionally, please chime in with your experience?

I am currently working on a GC3 that will have these slates and I am going with Brunswick Superspeed and just the procut pocket with matching slate,


Thanks !

TFT
 

Lawnboy77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I remember RKC doing this a few years ago. It turned out great! RKC, did you add a rail bolt, or maybe 2, to each rail?
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Gold Member
Silver Member
Hey Nick! I am working on this literally today and tomorrow. I will have all the details very soon. I have to make sure all of this works right so I dont shoot myself in the foot! Will keep you posted. Thanks

TFT
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Gold Member
Silver Member
My only concern would be the fit of the pockets. The Born Winners pockets are a tight fit on the standard Gold Crown I and II slates. Of course, it's due to the sloped pocket cut-outs. Assuming that you would be using a straight drop, I would think it shouldn't be an issue, but I guess it depends on how deep of a shelf you are creating.

Edit:
Actually, I think it's just the side pockets that are a little snug... Not really much of a concern at the corners
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Gold Member
Silver Member
So in essence, I am making the option available to buy my restorations that will be very, very close to a Diamond. In fact, if I use Artemis Cushions the difference, in my opinion, will barely be quantifiable.
I don't agree with this 100%.
Much of what makes a Diamond bank the way that it does is the rigidity of construction.
The Gold Crowns, Anniversaries, Centennials have several more connection points (pocket castings), which are energy absorbers. No matter how tight you get the hardware, it will never be as rigid as a Diamond.
However, I think that you can get it fairly close.
In my opinion, the trick is to set the nose height of the rubber just slightly lower than you would on a Diamond.
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Gold Member
Silver Member
I dont think anyone will be able to prove a quantifiable difference. I am also not sold on the extra rail bolt theory either. I never have thought I needed to add rail bolts. Proving any of this stuff is not going to happen, no point in arguing. It will be very close. Which Predator and Rasson are also CLOSE, not exactly the same. I like that things are at least headed toward a "standard" and seeing other manufacturers using similar dimensions is KOOL IMO! :)

TFT
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am also not sold on the extra rail bolt theory either. I never have thought I needed to add rail bolts.

TFT
No dog in the fight really, but I think this statement warrants some debate. Basic engineering physics will tell you the clamping force and rigidity of an object secured with (4) fasteners separated by a shorter distance is greater than the same object secured with (3) fasteners separated by a longer distance. The more rigid (secure) the rail is, the better it will play. No?
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Gold Member
Silver Member
No dog in the fight really, but I think this statement warrants some debate. Basic engineering physics will tell you the clamping force and rigidity of an object secured with (4) fasteners separated by a shorter distance is greater than the same object secured with (3) fasteners separated by a longer distance. The more rigid (secure) the rail is, the better it will play. No?
Rexus, if you can PROVE what you are saying, then go ahead and quantify it. I want to see the results of your research. Hypothesizing over it is a waste of time with out a way to prove it. So you do have a dog in the fight, you want to be right :) I love to debate too! I know you mean well and I will always go back and forth with you a lil, we have history and I know you are more than the average dude from the work you did on your table!!! :)

If you want to get a Stimpmeter and spend some time, have at it and I look forward to all your details pics!!

Has the GC ever needed more bolts? Ball weight ever change noticeably, Nope, end of discussion. Well at least it is for me.

TFT
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No need for tests and valuation. It's common sense, actually. More fasteners in close proximity to one another provides more clamping force. Are three rail bolts adequate? Sure. Are 4 needed? It's been proven the 4th isn't "needed". Do 4 bolts provide better clamping force and a more "solid" connection, yes. I've never played on an RKC modified Gold Crown with 4 bolt rails but I'd wager the rails are more responsive; less transfer of energy.

Kind of apples to oranges, but kind of not. Would you rather have an engine block with 2 bolt mains or 4 bolt mains?

All I know is my table plays lights out and it is bone stock which is a credit to my mechanic. Would it be more "solid" with 4 rail bolts? Who knows. My mechanic was toying around with converting it to 4 but decided against it because of how unmolested it was from a construction standpoint.
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Gold Member
Silver Member
No need for tests and valuation. It's common sense, actually. More fasteners in close proximity to one another provides more clamping force. Are three rail bolts adequate? Sure. Are 4 needed? It's been proven the 4th isn't "needed". Do 4 bolts provide better clamping force and a more "solid" connection, yes. I've never played on an RKC modified Gold Crown with 4 bolt rails but I'd wager the rails are more responsive; less transfer of energy.

Kind of apples to oranges, but kind of not. Would you rather have an engine block with 2 bolt mains or 4 bolt mains?

All I know is my table plays lights out and it is bone stock which is a credit to my mechanic. Would it be more "solid" with 4 rail bolts? Who knows. My mechanic was toying around with converting it to 4 but decided against it because of how unmolested it was from a construction standpoint.
I bet if he had used 4, you could not tell the difference :) Hope you are well sir, its beautiful down here on the sunny Gulfcoast of Florida! oh shit, I forgot, i am going to be out in Cali in January, LA! Holler!

TFT
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I bet if he had used 4, you could not tell the difference :) Hope you are well sir, its beautiful down here on the sunny Gulfcoast of Florida! oh shit, I forgot, i am going to be out in Cali in January, LA! Holler!

TFT
You notice any difference when you convert from floating nuts to bolted-on nuts?
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Gold Member
Silver Member
You notice any difference when you convert from floating nuts to bolted-on nuts?
You are making my point even more SOLID! The floating nuts are enough and they are a WEAK connection point. Still the tables play right. The floating nut plates are not my favorite, but, they work for their intended purpose. I do replace them with sta-fast inserts when needed.

TFT

P.s. Joey, lets shoot pool when i am out your way, will be cool to meet you. I am pretty sure I already have your address!!! WUAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA :devilish: . I sold you stuff before!!!
 

rexus31

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I bet if he had used 4, you could not tell the difference :) Hope you are well sir, its beautiful down here on the sunny Gulfcoast of Florida! oh shit, I forgot, i am going to be out in Cali in January, LA! Holler!

TFT
Where are you staying when you come out?
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You are making my point even more SOLID! The floating nuts are enough and they are a WEAK connection point. Still the tables play right. The floating nut plates are not my favorite, but, they work for their intended purpose. I do replace them with sta-fast inserts when needed.

TFT

P.s. Joey, lets shoot pool when i am out your way, will be cool to meet you. I am pretty sure I already have your address!!! WUAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA :devilish: . I sold you stuff before!!!
My pool room is now half an office . Haha! Can't shoot from one side .
But, I do need a new cloth .
Camel or Gold Simonis would do .
Let me know how much that would be and when you get here . Has to be done on weekends though as that room is an office all day now .
You do have my addy. Got the gullies from you .
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Gold Member
Silver Member
Where are you staying when you come out?
I just made the Brunswick sale and getting all the details in the works. Freighting the table, tools and flying out :) that's the only route anymore for this guy. Its a repeat client of mine, he is leaving his table with his old house in San Jose and renting it. New place is down by LA., I also have an associate of mine that is in the private security business out there. I will most likely stay with and he will be my right hand while I am in town :) He helped me install this particular clients table too!

Joey, I would love to recover your table and hang out/ play pool and shoot the shit!

TFT
 
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3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I dont think anyone will be able to prove a quantifiable difference. I am also not sold on the extra rail bolt theory either. I never have thought I needed to add rail bolts. Proving any of this stuff is not going to happen, no point in arguing. It will be very close. Which Predator and Rasson are also CLOSE, not exactly the same. I like that things are at least headed toward a "standard" and seeing other manufacturers using similar dimensions is KOOL IMO! :)

TFT
I don't have a dog here either but only curious. I'm not a mechanic. I'm simply a guy that pays attention. I also have a fair amount of knowledge of joint design and assembly. I'm not a Degreed Engineer, but can discuss joint design with most of them

It's my belief (unverified) that Brunswick really started losing interest in cue sports around the time the Anniversary and Centennial came out.
I also believe prior to these tables, when they used Master Cabinet Makers (for lack of another term) to build their tables, many of the techniques were superior, although expensive, since there was much more hand work/customizing/thought. I can't speak to the Centennial or Anniversary, I've only played on a few of them and maybe never a carom version. I will say the pocket versions were a total joy.

What I do know is a Gold Crown Carom table plays terrible. My opinion is, the rails are too light weight, the bolting is weaker than tables of old, and of course there's the 1"slate. Basically a terrible idea, IMO. I remember helping a local room owner recover a GC. After removing the rail bolts he had me help lift all 6 rails at once and place them on the next table. My first thought, after thinking, are you kidding? Was all these rails weigh less than my single long rail on my B'wick carom table. That was the feeling. Likely not close to accurate.

Ok that's a lot of words: Why did Brunswick use 4 or 5 bolts on a T-Rail in the old days and now I'm hearing only 3 (short rail) on their Gold Crown?

I'm not saying a TRail is better. I do believe its stronger and more adjustable. Maybe wrong on the adjustable thing.

1632693917306.png

I dont think anyone will be able to prove a quantifiable difference. I am also not sold on the extra rail bolt theory either. I never have thought I needed to add rail bolts. Proving any of this stuff is not going to happen, no point in arguing. It will be very close. Which Predator and Rasson are also CLOSE, not exactly the same. I like that things are at least headed toward a "standard" and seeing other manufacturers using similar dimensions is KOOL IMO! :)

TFT
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Sorry for a 2nd post.
Here's my Verhoeven T-Rail bolt pattern.
 

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