Not Too Many 8 Ball Break and Run

T

TheBook

Ret Professional Goof Off
Silver Member
Looking at the box scores there are not too many break and run outs in the IPT 8 ball tourny.

I guess the pros aren't as good in 8 ball as in 9 ball. Or is 8 ball a little more difficult?

Maybe they should pretend they are playing the ghost and they will get some of those 10 - 1 break and run outs.
 
TheBook said:
Looking at the box scores there are not too many break and run outs in the IPT 8 ball tourny.

I guess the pros aren't as good in 8 ball as in 9 ball. Or is 8 ball a little more difficult?

Maybe they should pretend they are playing the ghost and they will get some of those 10 - 1 break and run outs.
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Tuh, bloody rubbish lol!
 
chefjeff said:
It ain't as easy as it looks, is it?

Jeff Livingston
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No, Jeff, it's not. I kept my mouth shut when a lot were saying it would be boring because it would just be a Break and Run contest. I have in my notes, some old notes (not sure how many years old, but not new) of statistics that came from Accustats. In PRO 8-Ball, the average pro (now keep in mind that Archer, Reyes, Bustamante, Owens, etc., are not average, but ABOVE average players) makes at least one ball on the break 4 times in 11 breaks. Also, the NON breaker is a 60% winner. Now, that just couldn't be if everyone was running from the break every time. Got these stats from Randy G, btw...

Now, keep in mind, when the phrase "average pro" is used, that covers everyone from the guy who goes 2 and out in every tournament to the top players in every tournament. It's the AVERAGE, not the exception. There are many IPT players that may well be an 80% winner from the break and make a ball EVERY time they break, but those are the exceptions to the rule, not the "average pro player".

Later,
Bob
 
TheBook said:
Looking at the box scores there are not too many break and run outs in the IPT 8 ball tourny.

I guess the pros aren't as good in 8 ball as in 9 ball. Or is 8 ball a little more difficult?

Maybe they should pretend they are playing the ghost and they will get some of those 10 - 1 break and run outs.
Click to expand...

Obviously, many people (many posters anyhow) were drawing the wrong conclusion about how easy running racks is in eight ball. I have a possible idea why so many thought this would be the case.

It is easier for an amature level player to occasionally run a rack of eight ball than nine ball. Note, I am not saying that eight ball is easier over all. With eight ball, there is a % of breaks where the table is wide open. A wide open eight ball table is runnable for a decent C player. They will not run it every time, but can do so occasionally. In nine ball, a wide open table is much more common, but much harder to run out for a C player. For a pro player, a wide open table in eight or nine ball is almost a given. But for the C player that can run open eight ball tables occasionally, a wide open nine ball table after the break most likely means the opponent is going to get to shoot.

Another way I can state my point is by looking at the difficulty of a break and run on a scale of 1 to 10. For nine ball, the difficulty range of the table after the break 90% of the time is 4-9. For eight ball it would be 3-10. Eight ball occasionally presents easier opportunities for a break and run than you would typically see in nine ball. But, eight ball also has its share of table layouts that are much harder to run out than you would typically see in nine ball.

Make sence?

Since us amatures run more eight ball racks than nine ball racks we draw the wrong conclusion about the realitive difficulty of the games.
 
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mthornto said:
Obviously, many people (many posters anyhow) were drawing the wrong conclusion about how easy running racks is in eight ball. I have a possible idea why so many thought this would be the case.

..................
Click to expand...

a lot of pros feel the same way, btw
 
Cane said:
No, Jeff, it's not. I kept my mouth shut when a lot were saying it would be boring because it would just be a Break and Run contest. I have in my notes, some old notes (not sure how many years old, but not new) of statistics that came from Accustats. In PRO 8-Ball, the average pro (now keep in mind that Archer, Reyes, Bustamante, Owens, etc., are not average, but ABOVE average players) makes at least one ball on the break 4 times in 11 breaks. Also, the NON breaker is a 60% winner. Now, that just couldn't be if everyone was running from the break every time. Got these stats from Randy G, btw...

Now, keep in mind, when the phrase "average pro" is used, that covers everyone from the guy who goes 2 and out in every tournament to the top players in every tournament. It's the AVERAGE, not the exception. There are many IPT players that may well be an 80% winner from the break and make a ball EVERY time they break, but those are the exceptions to the rule, not the "average pro player".

Later,
Bob
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Thanks for the stats, Bob. I knew the breaker was at a disadvantage, but I didn't realize it was THAT big. It might even be bigger than that because of the break box rule in the IPT.

This is why I've been experimenting with the placing the cueball on the side of the IPT break area and still being able to hit the second ball successfully. I'm going out on a limb here and am predicting that the second ball break will become a valuable tool and probably even become the norm in the IPT.

Jeff Livingston
 
Well the cloth is slower and that's a big change for the pros. They are precision players and can park the cb on a dime on the cloth they're used to. Now they have to change a lot under quite a bit of pressure. Aren't the pockets tighter than normal too?
 
Break and run percentage through round 4

Bracket 1, 25 percent

Bracket 2, 27

Bracket 3, 31

Bracket 4, 32

Bracket 5, 24
 
Pinoy's like back home advantage!

Rickw said:
Well the cloth is slower and that's a big change for the pros. They are precision players and can park the cb on a dime on the cloth they're used to. Now they have to change a lot under quite a bit of pressure. Aren't the pockets tighter than normal too?
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Add to that the fact that they're used to a 15 balls rack, rotation. Advantage to Efren, Django and Marlon as these makes them feel at home.:) Maybe that helps explain their, Django and Marlon's, having the highest number of BNRs. Breaking and running out 15 balls, in numerical order, on slow cloth is comfortable to them so how hard do you think would running out 8 be? Practice rotation folks!

Also, Filipino pool ranking is synonymous to most money won in gambling, I kid you not. Tournaments are better than gambling, low wager with high return. That is why the 1st WPC-Cardiff for $50,000(?), Color of Money (HK) ER vs Earl for $100k, 1st Tokyo 9-Ball for $168k, Derby City Classic with its +$20k to overall winner, etc. Show them the money and they'll show you pool excellence!
 
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NAME--------B&R---GAMES WON---PERCENTILE
Feijen---------15--------35------------.428
Bustamante----17-------40------------.425
Hundal---------12-------30------------.400
Hohmann-------13-------33------------.393
Manalo---------15-------40------------.375
Deuel-----------13-------36------------.361
Van Den Berg---13-------39------------.333
Robles----------12-------36------------.333

I'd say they are doing pretty good and Efren hasn't even started yet. ;)

Tracy

EDIT (I was bored) :o
 
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chefjeff said:
Thanks for the stats, Bob. I knew the breaker was at a disadvantage, but I didn't realize it was THAT big. It might even be bigger than that because of the break box rule in the IPT.

This is why I've been experimenting with the placing the cueball on the side of the IPT break area and still being able to hit the second ball successfully. I'm going out on a limb here and am predicting that the second ball break will become a valuable tool and probably even become the norm in the IPT.

Jeff Livingston
Click to expand...

Jeff, no problem on the stats... just thought that after the tourney started they would be of interest to some.

The break box rule is significant, I believe. I have traditionally broke 8-ball from a line from the first diamond from the corner to the lead ball. Tonight, I probably broke 50 or 60 racks using second ball (Thanks BlackJack for your suggestion and your drawings) and made a significantly higher percentage of balls on the break than my "standard" break. My 1st diamond line break, I was averaging 1.14 balls per break. (some breaks 4 balls, many breaks ZERO), but with the second ball break, I averaged 1.62 balls per break. I have a "Break Scoresheet" that anyone is welcome to if they want it... just email me at caneman@clnk.com and I'll send it to you.

In any case, my standard break was the best I could get of all the break positions I could think of, inside the box. The break that Blackjack suggested yeilded a much higher balls on break than my "in the box" break. That may have a great impact on the IPT breaks, and the break and run percentage from IPT, however, the numbers Colin has reported so far, are very close to the OLD numbers that RandyG gave me that he got from AccuStats... so maybe it doesn't make that much difference... I don't know...

All I know for sure is that I'm playing in all of the Evolution Tour events next year, and my old ass will be in the IPT Qualifier next year... look out, bottom 50... an old man is out to bump your ass! :)

Later,
Bob
 
You're wrong

RSB-Refugee said:
NAME--------B&R---GAMES WON---PERCENTILE
Feijen---------15--------35------------.428
Bustamante----17-------40------------.425
Hundal---------12-------30------------.400
Hohmann-------13-------33------------.393
Manalo---------15-------40------------.375
Deuel-----------13-------36------------.361
Van Den Berg---13-------39------------.333
Robles----------12-------36------------.333

I'd say they are doing pretty good and Efren hasn't even started yet. ;)

Tracy

EDIT (I was bored) :o
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You have to count the games their opponents won too, and divide
it by 2 to get the number of games that each player broke the balls.
In Django's case, he played a total of 60 games (40 wins for him and
20 wins by his opponents = 60 games total / 2 = 30 games breaking).
It would be 17 / 30 = 56.67% not the 42.5% you reported.
 
bandido said:
Add to that the fact that they're used to a 15 balls rack, rotation. Advantage to Efren, Django and Marlon as these makes them feel at home.:) Maybe that helps explain their, Django and Marlon's, having the highest number of BNRs. Breaking and running out 15 balls, in numerical order, on slow cloth is comfortable to them so how hard do you think would running out 8 be? Practice rotation folks!
Click to expand...

Edwin, Excellent point... also, and I'm not being overly corrective here, I hope, is the fact that the Filipino players play on 5X10 tables more often than they play on 4 1/2 x 9's. THAT can also make a world of difference. BTW, I'll take your advice and be playing a lot of rotation before the Evo event in February!

Later,
Bob
 
Nuttin Personal Scott, but your new avatar is much more appealing than the pic of yourself in your old avatar!

Later,
Bob (huge DD fan!... you'll see why when I can make it to Wichita! My S.O. has hooters til tuesday!!!)
 
bandido said:
Add to that the fact that they're used to a 15 balls rack, rotation. Advantage to Efren, Django and Marlon as these makes them feel at home.:) Maybe that helps explain their, Django and Marlon's, having the highest number of BNRs. Breaking and running out 15 balls, in numerical order, on slow cloth is comfortable to them so how hard do you think would running out 8 be? Practice rotation folks!

Also, Filipino pool ranking is synonymous to most money won in gambling, I kid you not. Tournaments are better than gambling, low wager with high return. That is why the 1st WPC-Cardiff for $50,000(?), Color of Money (HK) ER vs Earl for $100k, 1st Tokyo 9-Ball for $168k, Derby City Classic with its +$20k to overall winner, etc. Show them the money and they'll show you pool excellence!
Click to expand...
I agree. However, I'm very surprised that Parica didn't get through. I thought he would feel at home with the slow cloth just like Django and Manalo. I thought he would have a great showing. Sayang.
 
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