Old cue..."Vintage", "original", "as new"..."pristine"...what do you think?

[Chopdoc]

Old cue..."Vintage", "original", "as new"..."pristine"...what do you think?

I wish I had known a few years ago what the market might be for some of the late 70"s or early 80's McDermott cues and Meucci Originals cues. Also Mali, Huebler, Viking, and others.

I am seeing "Vintage", "original", "as new"..."pristine"...cues for sale now and selling for relatively serious money, like double or triple in a few years. Many are asking too much but selling for substantially above what they were just a few years ago.

That is not to say I don't have such cues of those eras...but not a whole bunch.


What bugs me is that precious few are what they claim. You can see the logos have been sanded. Or you can see the logo is not the original type. Or you can see the original butt cap material is not original. Or the ferrule is obviously not original. Or the finish is not original. I guess I would not be surprised if many actually do not see that, do not see what they are looking at.

The matter of refinishing and restoration has been mentioned here and there on AZB. I am an advocate of preservation where possible and restoration or repair when necessary.

A more serious conversation would be about custom cues, of course, but there are many more of the production cues available to see that will fit this conversation.

Since the 70's and 80's cue values seem to be entering this arena of increasing value I wonder how others feel about it?

Do you care if a "pristine" original cue obviously has a modern finish on it? Do you care if the logo is obviously not original?


There seems to still be a "refinish frenzy" for pool cues.

There were some really great makers through that period. Balabushka at the beginning and Szamboti, Tad, Gina...and others carried it through.

I see many that seem to be suspicious for refinish work yet are claimed to be "original". Just like the common production cues of that era so commonly for sale now.


Does it matter?


IMHO it will matter later even if it does not now. It matters to me already.



What do you think?


PLEASE NOTE: I am not speaking about any cue or seller on AZB or anywhere else in particular. I am or trashing anybody or any sale. I am not questioning any cue that has been posted here on AZB AT ALL. I am not "calling out" anybody or anything. I am merely interested in people's feelings on the topic.





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[HawaiianEye]

I wish I had known a few years ago what the market might be for some of the late 70"s or early 80's McDermott cues and Meucci Originals cues. Also Mali, Huebler, Viking, and others.

I am seeing "Vintage", "original", "as new"..."pristine"...cues for sale now and selling for relatively serious money, like double or triple in a few years. Many are asking too much but selling for substantially above what they were just a few years ago.

That is not to say I don't have such cues of those eras...but not a whole bunch.


What bugs me is that precious few are what they claim. You can see the logos have been sanded. Or you can see the logo is not the original type. Or you can see the original butt cap material is not original. Or the ferrule is obviously not original. Or the finish is not original. I guess I would not be surprised if many actually do not see that, do not see what they are looking at.

The matter of refinishing and restoration has been mentioned here and there on AZB. I am an advocate of preservation where possible and restoration or repair when necessary.

A more serious conversation would be about custom cues, of course, but there are many more of the production cues available to see that will fit this conversation.

Since the 70's and 80's cue values seem to be entering this arena of increasing value I wonder how others feel about it?

Do you care if a "pristine" original cue obviously has a modern finish on it? Do you care if the logo is obviously not original?


There seems to still be a "refinish frenzy" for pool cues.

There were some really great makers through that period. Balabushka at the beginning and Szamboti, Tad, Gina...and others carried it through.

I see many that seem to be suspicious for refinish work yet are claimed to be "original". Just like the common production cues of that era so commonly for sale now.


Does it matter?


IMHO it will matter later even if it does not now. It matters to me already.


What do you think?

PLEASE NOTE: I am not speaking about any cue or seller on AZB or anywhere else in particular. I am or trashing anybody or any sale. I am not questioning any cue that has been posted here on AZB AT ALL. I am not "calling out" anybody or anything. I am merely interested in people's feelings on the topic.


.

I like to keep my cues in as "pristine" a condition as I can, while, at the same time, playing with them. I don't have any "wall flower" cues. I buy them for playing cues. A couple of my old 35-40 year old cues have been refinished, but it wasn't because they were "beat up". I take good care of my cues...I never put my cues away without wiping them down with a towel and I wipe them every few minutes when I play. I also keep a wax finish on my cues. I use Renaissance currently.

I have never gotten in the "market" of buying or selling cue as a money making venture. I have always bought cues to play with. I have kept most of them, but I have gotten rid of a few bottom end cues that I happened to come with on a trade or something.

When I try somebody's cue out for a test run, I always pay attention to what kind of condition they keep it in. I think the majority of people don't put the same emphasis on keeping their cues in good condition as I do. None of my cues ever have nicks, scratches, or dings in them and some of them are a half century old.

I see a lot of NOS vintage cues online now, too. I have my doubts about a lot of them.

 

[galipeau]

I'm a fan of cues with "character", as they say.

Leave 'em be

 

[poolguy4u]

Wish I knew where to sell my cues for serious money.....

I see cues for sale but not many people buying.



:frown:



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[Mr. Bond]

IMHO In a perfect world, one of the best ways to ensure that something is authentic, is for it to remain unaltered in "original" condition. Any alteration or even a basic repair can raise questions, and therefore should be avoided when possible, if preserving authenticity is a concern you might have.


This is why antiques and vintage items are sometimes "graded"......
To tell you how close the item is to "original unaltered" condition.

That being said, unlike "typical" collectibles, on things like cues and pool tables, a certain amount of wear and tear is to be expected, as well as regular "maintenance", so things like tips, ferrules, cloth and cushions are -expected- to be altered and/or replaced with little or no effect on the object's value.

 

[kntbeach]

I think the cue should be advertised as to what it really is. If it is original then that means no restoration. If it has been restored just say so. some people do not care, some do. If it is a production cue that has been restored no big deal to many. However for a highly collectible cue it makes a huge difference and should be advertised as such. Some sellers have no clue if any work has been done to the cue so ask questions when buying a big one.

 

[WildWing]

It doesn't bother me that someone has their cue refinished. After all, it's their cue, and you don't know what condition it was in that resulted in that decision.

But, you sort of have two questions going, is it ok to refinish, and what about the term original...

To me, original means just that, if not otherwise qualified. Original everything, except possibly for tips. I don't think a change of a tip constitutes a modification from original.

There are degrees. If the shaft has a ferrule replacement, but the butt is original, than it's an original butt, with a repaired/modified shaft.

Your point about original is really about cues advertised for sale, and I see the same things you do. There are gray areas. What if a bumper is replaced? To me, not quite original, but if done the same color and style, not a foul. After all, the original bumper may have worn out.

But, all modifications should be noted if a cue is for sale. What I have noticed occasionally, is a cue that is advertised as original, but I see it as questionable. It may have a worn, cracked bumper, indicating age, a very good finish, and a pristine, new looking wrap. I wonder, how can that be? I have bumpers on 47 year old cues that have no cracking at all. How can a cue have a worn, cracked bumper, but a new looking wrap? Maybe the wrap was cleaned. Does that violate original? I think no, but it should be noted if it's for sale.

Bottom line, original is getting harder and harder to believe. Honest sellers should carefully qualify what they're selling. It's ok, for example, to say original, though cleaned wrap and replaced ferrules.

Vintage cues are all about balance, and your eyes don't lie, if you know what to look for. Good topic.

All the best,
WW

 

[poolcrazy]

On Huebler cues there are ways to tell if it is truly of stock or a new cue that has been restored
length and materials used give away the year or years built
TerryB

 

[Michael Webb]

I wish I had known a few years ago what the market might be for some of the late 70"s or early 80's McDermott cues and Meucci Originals cues. Also Mali, Huebler, Viking, and others.

I am seeing "Vintage", "original", "as new"..."pristine"...cues for sale now and selling for relatively serious money, like double or triple in a few years. Many are asking too much but selling for substantially above what they were just a few years ago.

That is not to say I don't have such cues of those eras...but not a whole bunch.


What bugs me is that precious few are what they claim. You can see the logos have been sanded. Or you can see the logo is not the original type. Or you can see the original butt cap material is not original. Or the ferrule is obviously not original. Or the finish is not original. I guess I would not be surprised if many actually do not see that, do not see what they are looking at.

The matter of refinishing and restoration has been mentioned here and there on AZB. I am an advocate of preservation where possible and restoration or repair when necessary.

A more serious conversation would be about custom cues, of course, but there are many more of the production cues available to see that will fit this conversation.

Since the 70's and 80's cue values seem to be entering this arena of increasing value I wonder how others feel about it?

Do you care if a "pristine" original cue obviously has a modern finish on it? Do you care if the logo is obviously not original?


There seems to still be a "refinish frenzy" for pool cues.

There were some really great makers through that period. Balabushka at the beginning and Szamboti, Tad, Gina...and others carried it through.

I see many that seem to be suspicious for refinish work yet are claimed to be "original". Just like the common production cues of that era so commonly for sale now.


Does it matter?


IMHO it will matter later even if it does not now. It matters to me already.



What do you think?


PLEASE NOTE: I am not speaking about any cue or seller on AZB or anywhere else in particular. I am or trashing anybody or any sale. I am not questioning any cue that has been posted here on AZB AT ALL. I am not "calling out" anybody or anything. I am merely interested in people's feelings on the topic.
.

Some very good questions Doc.
My answer to all the above is.
It all depends on the cue. I've read other's opinions over the years. Some I agree with and some I think are B. S. I've watched some nice people get abused by some very dishonest people. It's the nature of the beast I guess so I look at each cue individually. If I have questions, I call someone more knowledged than myself before I make a final decision.

 

[classiccues]

Simply.. its the one mistake cue collectors/dealers didn't emphasize enough. I am from the refinishing / restoration side if the cue warrants and needs it. HOWEVER, that should only increase all original examples. Thankfully I am also dabbling in another endeavor that has really shed some light on the value of all original and the devaluation of non-original.
I have seen people replace handles in all original pristine monsters, just to remove a buzz. OK I get it, however, that's surgery as far as I am concerned. Refinishing cues because the original lacquer yellowed, well duh, but why? Unless its really destroyed and in need.
I also cannot buy into, "well it depends who does it".. the only time I can find limited acceptance is Barry / Gus. Father / son.. if you bought someone's shop, or whatever, that's great, but you have no "blood" lineage. However there are guys that SHOULD work on the cues made by their teachers, or who owned the shop. But its still not original, and should not be counted as such.
You cannot tell me, with a straight face, that a level 3 Bushka all original 90% condition, should have the same value or be worth LESS than a restored Bushka, doesn't matter by who, with non-original shafts, automotive clear coat, and atlas linen. I am sorry, this second cue should be worth no more than 50% of the first cue.
There are reasons to follow this formula, and one big reason is to entice new blood into the market, that maybe now could afford a 3500 dollar Bushka, and work his way UP to a World Class Collectible. This keeps a lower more achievable tier of cues available to those getting started. It also maintains the upper more valuable market for the true collector extraordinaire.
Unfortunately I think there are people afraid to unring this bell, because quite frankly, at this point, there are a lot of cues that will go down, and a few would go up.

JV

 

[skins]

Simply.. its the one mistake cue collectors/dealers didn't emphasize enough. I am from the refinishing / restoration side if the cue warrants and needs it. HOWEVER, that should only increase all original examples. Thankfully I am also dabbling in another endeavor that has really shed some light on the value of all original and the devaluation of non-original.
I have seen people replace handles in all original pristine monsters, just to remove a buzz. OK I get it, however, that's surgery as far as I am concerned. Refinishing cues because the original lacquer yellowed, well duh, but why? Unless its really destroyed and in need.
I also cannot buy into, "well it depends who does it".. the only time I can find limited acceptance is Barry / Gus. Father / son.. if you bought someone's shop, or whatever, that's great, but you have no "blood" lineage. However there are guys that SHOULD work on the cues made by their teachers, or who owned the shop. But its still not original, and should not be counted as such.
You cannot tell me, with a straight face, that a level 3 Bushka all original 90% condition, should have the same value or be worth LESS than a restored Bushka, doesn't matter by who, with non-original shafts, automotive clear coat, and atlas linen. I am sorry, this second cue should be worth no more than 50% of the first cue.
There are reasons to follow this formula, and one big reason is to entice new blood into the market, that maybe now could afford a 3500 dollar Bushka, and work his way UP to a World Class Collectible. This keeps a lower more achievable tier of cues available to those getting started. It also maintains the upper more valuable market for the true collector extraordinaire.
Unfortunately I think there are people afraid to unring this bell, because quite frankly, at this point, there are a lot of cues that will go down, and a few would go up.

JV

I dont think the 50% theory will come any time soon due to the fact of not only finite rarity but also availability. If there were more Bushka's and Boti's becoming available on a more regular basis then there might be room for this way to value but until the market opens up the gap between restored and ok condition will be tighter IMHO.

 

[classiccues]

Finite rarity... exactly. There are very few all original, pristine examples. Which is exactly why they need to be way UP... way way up.. in direct reverse of a cue that as I described, does not have original shafts, wrap or finish.

The problem is mentality, and its always been. But thankfully there are some collectors that have collected only original cues. Those guys should reap the rewards, as far as value in the collection.

Lets go with the 1200 cue theory of GB. How rare is an all original, how many are left. 10-15-20%? That's why, they need to be substantially more.

Its not my fault that pretty sells and people have take cues that were at 70-80% original, and had them refinished to add pretty "value".

Cues should be tiered in the amount of work, ie; level 1-5, then assigned a multiplier on total originality. Its a simple formula, even the "refinished" cue formula at 75% of max original value, and they go DOWN from there, depending upon what was done.

Tunnel vision is a dangerous thing, big picture thinking has never been pool's strong point. Its no surprise here, not meaning you Tim, but the market. But as I mentioned, those that have been dealing / buying strictly refinished at max value will have a hard time swallowing this pill.

Restored to mint,(new shafts, wrap) might be equal IMHO to an all original in 60% condition with 12.5mm shafts... To me, that is fair.


JV

I dont think the 50% theory will come any time soon due to the fact of not only finite rarity but also availability. If there were more Bushka's and Boti's becoming available on a more regular basis then there might be room for this way to value but until the market opens up the gap between restored and ok condition will be tighter IMHO.

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

There are an awful lot of factors to consider.

Are we talking Bushkas or Vikings or Huebler's or. . . . .?

Different cues, different rules, imo.

It was interesting recently when I posted a buddy's Bushka that had a clear acrylic section in the buttsleeve which was cracked. Some said leave it alone, it's original, George put it there, others suggested this is not normal wear, it's damage and should be replaced but only by Pete. I tended to agree with replacing it but def would keep the original to stay with the cue.

As JV said, lots of variables, is it just yellowing laquer? or is it a buzz?

Is it a $10k cue or are we talking a B series McDermott?

Lots to consider.

best,
brian kc

 

[skins]

Finite rarity... exactly. There are very few all original, pristine examples. Which is exactly why they need to be way UP... way way up.. in direct reverse of a cue that as I described, does not have original shafts, wrap or finish.

The problem is mentality, and its always been. But thankfully there are some collectors that have collected only original cues. Those guys should reap the rewards, as far as value in the collection.

Lets go with the 1200 cue theory of GB. How rare is an all original, how many are left. 10-15-20%? That's why, they need to be substantially more.

Its not my fault that pretty sells and people have take cues that were at 70-80% original, and had them refinished to add pretty "value".

Cues should be tiered in the amount of work, ie; level 1-5, then assigned a multiplier on total originality. Its a simple formula, even the "refinished" cue formula at 75% of max original value, and they go DOWN from there, depending upon what was done.

Tunnel vision is a dangerous thing, big picture thinking has never been pool's strong point. Its no surprise here, not meaning you Tim, but the market. But as I mentioned, those that have been dealing / buying strictly refinished at max value will have a hard time swallowing this pill.

Restored to mint,(new shafts, wrap) might be equal IMHO to an all original in 60% condition with 12.5mm shafts... To me, that is fair.


JV

Hey I'm right there with ya Joe. I believe as you do. I guess what I was trying to say is you wont see many Bushka's and Boti's in the 3500 range for the cue "commoner" of course unless they are seriously Frankensteined. As for the original good condition cue they will continue to get a premium BECAUSE of those big collectors. They're pretty much the only ones that can afford them in the first place. I mean how many 8 point or for that matter any real fancy Boti's, Gus or Barry, have you seen openly for sale? You dont tend to see many of those because most are kept "within the club" so to speak. I mean ever third moon or so one pops it's head. :happydance:

 

[measureman]

I'm a fan of cues with "character", as they say.

Leave 'em be

I'm a fan of characters with cues.

 

[one stroke]

I see tons for sale some been on here well over a yrs so I do not now how many are actualy selling ,,
I'd prefer to buy a cue with a ding or two as I'm buying a cue to play with , I don't think most cues lose any value being refinished and in some cases would gain value

For instance I have a old 4 point BB that needed a wrap and had some nicks Tony's cost with new tip 600 , Philippi's cost 135.. the cue certainly would not go up 600 in value and won't lose any real value eiather ,
However if it was a 6 or 8 point cue I'd never let anyone touch it but Tony thier in the collector market so it would make a difference then

The seller should disclose any info on the cue the best to his knowledge

1

 

[classiccues]

Exactly Tim, and that's the point. Here is my basic thought when it comes to business... 5x 10% of 3500 is better than 0% of 15k.... The only reason there are no 3500 dollar Bushkas to entice a lower level of consumer is because everyone has refinished, reshafted and rewrapped them all into 10-15k Bushkas. You can't have a high end market without a low end market. There is zero nurturing the cue market right now.. its big hit or nothing.
The club is getting no younger pal, and there isn't enough new blood and this is ONE reason.
People have forgotten how to collect, and the joy of collecting, and what it means to earn and move up from a velvet Elvis to a Picasso. There are few people, and less now in pool, that will be doing this. They are being weaned on LD and production. Custom cues are losing the appeal, pride of ownership, that was the rage up until the 2000's. But those buyers came in pool when owning a Bushka or Boti made you special as a player, not as a collector.

JV

Hey I'm right there with ya Joe. I believe as you do. I guess what I was trying to say is you wont see many Bushka's and Boti's in the 3500 range for the cue "commoner" of course unless they are seriously Frankensteined. As for the original good condition cue they will continue to get a premium BECAUSE of those big collectors. They're pretty much the only ones that can afford them in the first place. I mean how many 8 point or for that matter any real fancy Boti's, Gus or Barry, have you seen openly for sale? You dont tend to see many of those because most are kept "within the club" so to speak. I mean ever third moon or so one pops it's head. :happydance:

 

[Kickin' Chicken]

Exactly Tim, and that's the point. Here is my basic thought when it comes to business... 5x 10% of 3500 is better than 0% of 15k.... The only reason there are no 3500 dollar Bushkas to entice a lower level of consumer is because everyone has refinished, reshafted and rewrapped them all into 10-15k Bushkas. You can't have a high end market without a low end market. There is zero nurturing the cue market right now.. its big hit or nothing.
The club is getting no younger pal, and there isn't enough new blood and this is ONE reason.
People have forgotten how to collect, and the joy of collecting, and what it means to earn and move up from a velvet Elvis to a Picasso. There are few people, and less now in pool, that will be doing this. They are being weaned on LD and production. Custom cues are losing the appeal, pride of ownership, that was the rage up until the 2000's. But those buyers came in pool when owning a Bushka or Boti made you special as a player, not as a collector.

JV

^^^^^^^^^^^
This is a powerful post!

and accurate.

 

[Chopdoc]

Exactly Tim, and that's the point. Here is my basic thought when it comes to business... 5x 10% of 3500 is better than 0% of 15k.... The only reason there are no 3500 dollar Bushkas to entice a lower level of consumer is because everyone has refinished, reshafted and rewrapped them all into 10-15k Bushkas. You can't have a high end market without a low end market. There is zero nurturing the cue market right now.. its big hit or nothing.
The club is getting no younger pal, and there isn't enough new blood and this is ONE reason.
People have forgotten how to collect, and the joy of collecting, and what it means to earn and move up from a velvet Elvis to a Picasso. There are few people, and less now in pool, that will be doing this. They are being weaned on LD and production. Custom cues are losing the appeal, pride of ownership, that was the rage up until the 2000's. But those buyers came in pool when owning a Bushka or Boti made you special as a player, not as a collector.

JV

Very well put.


One twist of fate I enjoy though is when the velvet Elvis becomes the Picasso. Which does happen. :wink::grin: What we like very often will not be what our grandchildren like.

In fact, if I had a high end Picasso I might sell it so I could buy and enjoy a variety of "lesser" art. But that's just me. And it is just a "maybe".


I very much appreciate all the discussion. It is exactly what I was hoping for. I think we have had some very insightful and intelligent contributions here. Such things are important for cue fans to understand even if they are not necessarily pursuing top end cues.

To me, the manner and type of restoration of repair is important as well. Where the decision is made to have work done I feel it is important to be conservative and not "over-restore". To me this is important even on a cue that is in particularly rough shape, and even cues that are not particularly valuable.

To me, a high grade modern finish looks like tits on a bull when applied to an old cue. Yes, the finish is beautiful, but the cue never looked like that and I feel it shouldn't. The same goes with "upgrading" other materials.

When such work is done, it should be carefully considered.

In the end, the cues that are not thoughtfully handled in this matter will eventually boost the value of more original cues while also detracting from their own value.

As was stated, we are not yet seeing as much divergence in values as we do with some other "antique" and "collectibles" where these matters are concerned. But I do think we will. With time.




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