People bitching about 7’ tables

WardS

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You made me spit coffee. That is ridiculous. Bordering on delusional.

I played APA back in the mid-late 90s. There was ONE day of league a week then. Pretty much the only night other than Friday where you would see women bother to come in. The rest of the week it was gambling and tournaments.

Now Friday is the only weekday there isn't league in the two pool halls I frequent. Hell, the APA has a ladies league that craps up weekend play every so often, along with the absurdly named "master's league". These mobs of lessers choke the life out of the game; you can't even get a practice table when things are going full swing, but if you could, I promise you that the socialites milling around tables with their shitty bar food would have you saying 'excuse me, can i get in here right quick to take a shot?' nonstop.

I despise APA because I have watched it unfold; I have seen with my own two eyes the wickedness it has wrought.

I am not sure if the whole 7' table thing can be blamed entirely on leagues though. That may be due to a shortage of real men in this rotten, decaying, feminized, pretentious hypocritical culture.

If this is what 'saved pool' looks like, I say we go back and aim for a merciful death next time around.
See it all the time. Under tournament/gambling conditions the longer shots on a 9ft become a BIG deal to someone who spends all their time on bb's. A lot of what you say is nothing but guesses. I know what i see. Seen lots of 550-600 FR's on bb's that play at least 50pts lower on a 9ft. Quite a few wouldn't bet the sky's blue if they had to play on a big table. Look, i used to play a lot on bb's 30yrs ago 'cause that's where all the action was. Still is but i rarely play enough to be gambling. I don't like them and i don't play on them. I have 13 nice 9fts to play on so i don't have to worry about it. Some people have to play on the little box. Sucks to be them i guess. ;)
I just purchased a nice 7ft bar box, I love them.
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Imagine bowling used Fargo Ratings rather than an average of pins knocked over. So when you and I play on the 40-ft lane and you knock over 185 pins and I knock over 160 pins, that's recorded as Woodshaft over Mikepage by 15. Let's say we do that over and over again with that as a typical gap. Now suppose I go and bowl against Garczar on the longer 60-foot lane. We play a lot of games, and I tend to get 130 and he tends to get 145, i.e., 15 more than me.

The Fargo-Rating-type scheme would say you and Garczar would be a pretty even match. You would have the same rating.
The Fargo Rating scheme doesn't care that the 40-foot lane is easier, that I bowl 160 there vs 145 on the longer lane. That doesn't matter.

Though overall this kind of reasoning works well, there are two categories of problems:

(1) It may be there are certain subskills that are more important for success on one length lane than another, and I might be unusually good or bad at that subskill.

(2) Unfamiliarity. If I am simply not used to playing on a 60-foot lane, I might overcorrect and roll the ball too fast or misjudge where the spin is going to take hold, etc (I'm not a bowler so humor me). We view this temporary situation not as being less skilled on this equipment but rather merely as being unable to tap into your skill level. It is fixable with modest (tens of hours or a few hundred hours) of play.

Category (1) is real, but is usually too small to be measured with the amount of data we have. And across the board it is smaller and less important than people think.
I run out 3-4 times more often on a 7’ table. So if I played 95% of my matches on a 7’ table wouldn’t my Fargo rate be much higher than if I played on a league using 9’ tables and I only ran out one in ten?
 

jokrswylde

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I run out 3-4 times more often on a 7’ table. So if I played 95% of my matches on a 7’ table wouldn’t my Fargo rate be much higher than if I played on a league using 9’ tables and I only ran out one in ten?

I think the argument is that your opponent would likely run out more as well, so even though YOU are playing at a higher level, so is your opponent. Therefore, actual wins and losses would be similar.

I was under the impression that fr is a likelihood of winning type ranking system. So if you can vlbeat player A 60% of the time on a big table, even though you may shoot much better on a 7 footer, so will player A, so the result SHOULD be similar.

Someone who is a 650 fr, that plays mostly on 7 footers, is still going to be tough on any size table. At least that is how I am understanding the argument. Hope I didn't mess it all up.
 
Why has this devolved into a 7 vs 9 argument? It's a classic case of telephone game where the original premise degrades the further down the line it goes. The OP simply asked the 9 ft snobs to stop denigrating the 7ft players. Is that so fucking hard? Really, seriously? WTFCs? I MUCH prefer a 9 over a 7 or even my own home 8, BUT I'm a pool player. I play on whatever is in front of me and go. Yeah, it's that simple. This is what makes AZB a niche site and probably has something to do with pool taking a back seat to corn hole. There are so many things I like about this site, but this ain't it. Good night.
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think the argument is that your opponent would likely run out more as well, so even though YOU are playing at a higher level, so is your opponent. Therefore, actual wins and losses would be similar.

I was under the impression that fr is a likelihood of winning type ranking system. So if you can vlbeat player A 60% of the time on a big table, even though you may shoot much better on a 7 footer, so will player A, so the result SHOULD be similar.

Someone who is a 650 fr, that plays mostly on 7 footers, is still going to be tough on any size table. At least that is how I am understanding the argument. Hope I didn't mess it all up.
That may be true but from what I’ve seen very few BB players play on 9’ tables. What I’m talking about is, your a 650 FargoRate player and play 95% of your matches on bar tables and I’m a 650 FargoRate and play 95% of my matches on 9’ tables. What do think your win percentage would be playing me on the big table vs. my win percentage playing you on a bar table? My guess is you won’t like playing me on the big table and I’m sure I’d love to play you on the small table. What’s your thought
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Why has this devolved into a 7 vs 9 argument? It's a classic case of telephone game where the original premise degrades the further down the line it goes. The OP simply asked the 9 ft snobs to stop denigrating the 7ft players. Is that so fucking hard? Really, seriously? WTFCs? I MUCH prefer a 9 over a 7 or even my own home 8, BUT I'm a pool player. I play on whatever is in front of me and go. Yeah, it's that simple. This is what makes AZB a niche site and probably has something to do with pool taking a back seat to corn hole. There are so many things I like about this site, but this ain't it. Good night.
We could talk about Campy vs Shimano. Most of my bicycles are Italian and I’m a Campy snob, so what. But I do own a stainless steel bike from Taiwan that has electric Shimano groupo. Yes I’m still a Campy snob but can see the benefits of the dark side🚴🏻‍♂️
 

mikepage

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I run out 3-4 times more often on a 7’ table. So if I played 95% of my matches on a 7’ table wouldn’t my Fargo rate be much higher than if I played on a league using 9’ tables and I only ran out one in ten?
No. Your Fargo Rating would be the about the same either way.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
I run out 3-4 times more often on a 7’ table. So if I played 95% of my matches on a 7’ table wouldn’t my Fargo rate be much higher than if I played on a league using 9’ tables and I only ran out one in ten?
He literally answered your question in the very post you quoted, and I had answered it before that and so had others. To help it make sense, there are really only five very basic and simple concepts you need to understand which have already been explained but I've broken down for you below in the simplest terms possible and in a new format that might make it click better.

1. FargoRate doesn't measure the amount you run out, the quality of your stroke, how straight you shoot, which ghost you can beat, or anything of the like. FargoRate rates you by the only thing that matters when it comes to judging how good somebody is, which is how much you win or lose, against who, and by how much (and it takes your opponent's skill level into consideration so it knows just how impressive each of your win or loss amounts were and adjusts your rating accordingly).

2. Your opponent is always playing on the exact same easier or harder table as you are and the table is not somehow magically easier or harder just for you but not for him.

3. By looking at tons and tons and tons of matches for tons and tons and tons of players, including all the many player "exceptions" people were sure they had found, Mike has confirmed that the very clear trend is that people win at about the same rate against the same people/levels of players regardless of the table size (and regardless of how intuitive that may sound to somebody). Many people would have guessed otherwise but the actual win/loss performance data doesn't lie and he has over 19 million games of heads up play data on almost a quarter million players.

4. People often don't play to their normal potential on equipment they aren't yet used to, but it doesn't take all that long before this effect largely goes away as they get used to it. An analogy that might make sense to you is that when a fighter pilot gets assigned to start flying a different fighter, he isn't going to be quite as good in it in his first flight as he will be a few weeks later because at first he isn't yet used to the unique characteristics of the new equipment. It doesn't take all that long before he is back to performing at his typical level though, and he didn't magically have crappy piloting skills during this time, he just wasn't yet used to the unique characteristics of the new equipment yet until he learned them and adjusted for them.

5. There are people who, because of abnormally weak or strong particular parts of their game for their level (maybe they shoot straighter than Jayson Shaw but the rest of their game is Fargo 500 level), are a little more likely to win/lose based on the table size, but it isn't typical and the effects to the win/loss rate are still fairly negligible typically and more likely translates to a few Fargo points difference than dozens of points difference.
 
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Nyquil

Active member
I could never understand the concept of an 8 foot oversize. Might as well just have a 9 foot.
My buddy has one. Lengthwise he is maxed out with the bar set up he has so 9ft is a no go. It's a one owner commercial bally. Plays awesome imho.
 

jtompilot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
He literally answered your question in the very post you quoted, and I had answered it before that and so had others. To help it make sense, there are really only five very basic and simple concepts you need to understand which have already been explained but I've broken down for you below in the simplest terms possible and in a new format that might make it click better.

1. FargoRate doesn't measure the amount you run out, the quality of your stroke, how straight you shoot, which ghost you can beat, or anything of the like. FargoRate rates you by the only thing that matters when it comes to judging how good somebody is, which is how much you win or lose, against who, and by how much (and it takes your opponent's skill level into consideration so it knows just how impressive each of your win or loss amounts were and adjusts your rating accordingly).

2. Your opponent is always playing on the exact same easier or harder table as you are and the table is not somehow magically easier or harder just for you but not for him.

3. By looking at tons and tons and tons of matches for tons and tons and tons of players, including all the many player "exceptions" people were sure they had found, Mike has confirmed that the very clear trend is that people win at about the same rate against the same people/levels of players regardless of the table size (and regardless of how intuitive that may sound to somebody). Many people would have guessed otherwise but the actual win/loss performance data doesn't lie and he has over 19 million games of heads up play data on almost a quarter million players.

4. People often don't play to their normal potential on equipment they aren't yet used to, but it doesn't take all that long before this effect largely goes away as they get used to it. An analogy that might make sense to you is that when a fighter pilot gets assigned to start flying a different fighter, he isn't going to be quite as good in it in his first flight as he will be a few weeks later because at first he isn't yet used to the unique characteristics of the new equipment. It doesn't take all that long before he is back to performing at his typical level though, and he didn't magically have crappy piloting skills during this time, he just wasn't yet used to the unique characteristics of the new equipment yet until he learned them and adjusted for them.

5. There are people who, because of abnormally weak or strong particular parts of their game for their level (maybe they shoot straighter than Jayson Shaw but the rest of their game is Fargo 500 level), are a little more likely to win/lose based on the table size, but it isn't typical and the effects to the win/loss rate are still fairly negligible typically and more likely translates to a few Fargo points difference than dozens of points difference.
Thank you for the FargoRate explanation. It was well written and easy to understand. But it still doesn't address some posters views that BB are easier to play on. I'll agree that congestion can sometimes make the small table a little more difficult to maneuver, however that doesn't even come close to the challenges going from a 7' to a 9' table. I don't need to adjust to play on a 7' Diamond, they are a respectable tough table, but still easier than the 9' version.

As for the original post, I only bitch about crappy tables that rooms don't maintain well or the Texas rooms that have way more small tables and I cant play on the 9' tables because they're all rented before the 7 and 8' tables are. Just go to CK's in Dallas and you'll see what I'm talking about.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
Thank you for the FargoRate explanation. It was well written and easy to understand. But it still doesn't address some posters views that BB are easier to play on. I'll agree that congestion can sometimes make the small table a little more difficult to maneuver, however that doesn't even come close to the challenges going from a 7' to a 9' table. I don't need to adjust to play on a 7' Diamond, they are a respectable tough table, but still easier than the 9' version.

As for the original post, I only bitch about crappy tables that rooms don't maintain well or the Texas rooms that have way more small tables and I cant play on the 9' tables because they're all rented before the 7 and 8' tables are. Just go to CK's in Dallas and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Maybe BB's are easier to run out on, sometimes, it really depends on how they break. Since 2012 (when I bought my 9' table) I play equally on 9' and 7' tables, mostly 8 ball, I never checked my stats but I would guess I run out more on my 9' table than I do on BB's. I have had many people over to play on my 9' table who only shoot on BB's, they joke that they need binoculars to see the other end of the table. After an hour or so over playing I would surmise that we match up the same way on the big table that we do on the small table.
 

Poolplaya9

Tellin' it like it is...
Silver Member
Thank you for the FargoRate explanation. It was well written and easy to understand. But it still doesn't address some posters views that BB are easier to play on.
It did. I think just about everyone agrees that on net bar boxes are a bit easier, especially if judging by how often you run out or something similar. But FargoRate isn't judging you by your skills against the table, it is judging you by how well you do against your opponent (while also taking into consideration how good a player your opponent is so it knows how impressive the amount you won or lost by is and adjusts you accordingly), and your opponent is on the same table as you enjoying all the exact same advantages and disadvantages of that table size just like you, so you are on a level playing field to each other. So while your performance on a smaller table might go up, so does your opponent's, and so your performance in relation to your opponent's performance, which is all that matters and is all that FargoRate looks at, stays about the same.

Think of it this way. Your friend Bob, who plays at about your exact same level, may beat the 9 ball ghost on a 7 ft table more often than you beat the 9 ball ghost on a 9 ft table, but this obviously says nothing about his skills compared to yours (you couldn't deduce from this that he is better than you, only that he is on an easier table). But as soon as you match up against each other on either of the table sizes as long as it is the same table size, your results come back into line with each other because you are in fact equally skilled players. And any match you play against an opponent in any tournament or league etc, the ones that FargoRate is using to help rate your speed based on how you perform against your opponent (again, FargoRate is not looking at how you perform against the table, only how you perform against your opponent), always has you and your opponent on the exact same table so the table size doesn't matter much since you are both on the same one and it is only comparing you to each other.
 
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WardS

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Everything around me is 7'. It has ruined my 9' game I get zero time on a 9; table and if I get the chance to play on i'm missing everything
That’s what happens to most people, they have bb locally if they live in a town with bars, pool halls are not even close to everywhere, you won’t have a pool hall with one 9ft table they will be out of business. You find bar boxes everywhere bars, pizza joints, pool halls (if you can find a pool hall), VFW just about everywhere. If I were a 9ft snob I would buy one and put in my home unless you live in a metro area and then a lot of pool halls are closing. Most times it not a personal preference of table specs but what is available
 

Geosnookery

Well-known member
That’s what happens to most people, they have bb locally if they live in a town with bars, pool halls are not even close to everywhere, you won’t have a pool hall with one 9ft table they will be out of business. You find bar boxes everywhere bars, pizza joints, pool halls (if you can find a pool hall), VFW just about everywhere. If I were a 9ft snob I would buy one and put in my home unless you live in a metro area and then a lot of pool halls are closing. Most times it not a personal preference of table specs but what is available
Actually you won’t find a 7 ft tables in pool halls, Legions or recreation centres in my Canadian city…nearly all 9 ft with an odd 8 ft and a couple snooker tables. 7 ft tables are in bars.
 

Loo

New member
Wow, a rare fumble bro. Or just a rhetorical question? All the traffic precludes the breaker from winning every game but between two good players the breaker wins 65-70% of the time. That's a lot.
This isn't really true. Here's some recent tournament stats comparing bar box and 9 footer:
8-Ball
2021 Bar Box Classic - Breaker won game - 55%. Break and run - 37%
2019 US Open 8 Ball Championship 9ft - Breaker won game - 55%. Break and run - 43%
2018 US Open B Ball Championship 9ft - Breaker won game - 54%. Break and run - 33%
2017 US Open B Ball Championship 9ft - Breaker won game - 56%. Break and run - 41%
2015 US Bar Table Championship - Breaker won game - 58%. Break and run - 44%
 

Loo

New member
Thank you for the FargoRate explanation. It was well written and easy to understand. But it still doesn't address some posters views that BB are easier to play on. I'll agree that congestion can sometimes make the small table a little more difficult to maneuver, however that doesn't even come close to the challenges going from a 7' to a 9' table. I don't need to adjust to play on a 7' Diamond, they are a respectable tough table, but still easier than the 9' version.

As for the original post, I only bitch about crappy tables that rooms don't maintain well or the Texas rooms that have way more small tables and I cant play on the 9' tables because they're all rented before the 7 and 8' tables are. Just go to CK's in Dallas and you'll see what I'm talking about.
It's my opinion that if you are a good player with a straight stroke, 9 ball is easier on a bar box and 8 ball is easier on a 9 footer. 8 ball clusters on the bar box adds a lot more strategy. Now if you can't shoot straight...forget about 8 or 9 ball on the 9 footer lol.
 
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