So it's YOUR fault Cocobolo Cowboy's gone
Playing up against better players-advice please
- Thread starter TeddyKGB
- Start date
Funny, I think the opposite.
To me getting shape is the easy part.
Consistently potting balls, not missing is the hard part, otherwise we would all be 100 ball runners.
Continual focus.
If you can pot balls you can pot them from pretty much anywhere.
That is the difference with top notch players and pros.
They get shape and pot balls.
Doubt can creep in and you worry about missing instead of worrying about potting the ball.
There is a difference.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
You are def in the minority here as far as the guys splitting shots into the pot and the shape go. To me, and most others for that matter, speed and just the right spin for shape seem more difficult to pull off consistently than getting the start line of the CB right. Among better players, most misses come as a result of screwing up shape on a previous shot, raising the level of difficulty on the current one.
Interestingly, both Earl and JJ mentioned something about pros missing in their commentary that I def see in my own game. They talked about treating the shot as one event. The entire shot must be visualized as a whole. This way, the mind has more information to work with so by focusing on how the CB will come off the OB for your shape, you actually increase your chance of the pot. The key here is that you have to draw the correct relationships up in your mind or you will have to favor one ball's path over the other.
When the wrong ball reactions are visualized, you get that common perfect shape, but had to miss the ball to get that shape scenario. Among pros, this is much more common for the younger less experienced players. Earl will often call them out for attempting a shot that just wasn't there, as in the shape they attempted to play didn't match up with OB path to the pocket. The result is either a pot and awful shape (by pro standards anyway) or the perfect shape with a miss as mentioned above.
For advanced amateurs nowhere near pros, I think this type of miss is much more common. We sometimes focus on the shape so much we get it at the expense of the pot. The reason is usually that the shape we were trying to get, the way we were trying to get it, wasn't actually 'on' and we simply drew up a shot in our minds that could not happen resulting in an either/or spot of either you make the pot and miss shape or make shape and miss the pot.
I had another moment of clarity about this subject, and I wanted to address it. From 1900 to 1980 there was almost no worthwhile material for improving available. That meant , either you were a savant and picked the game up mostly by yourself, {which has happened a few times} or someone who had been taught , passed the information on to you. It was almost never free. You played a good player and lost money to him instead of paying for lessons, which neither side ever seemed to be keen on.
Then in about 80 Bob Byrne came out with a mountain of information , compared to the other available material, and now , in 2023 if you had the right books and videos, you could lock yourself in a room for 2 years, practiced 8 hours a day , and if you had even average hand eye coordination, and 110 iq , you could walk out and be able to win some matches at many tournaments. If you were very adept mentally and had excellent coordination. You could possibly walk out and be able to compete with anyone who wasn't a professional and you might even beat some of them.
There are great books on the mechanics, theory, and even dealing with the emotional parts of the game. I think Bob Henning is highly underrated by the way .
I do think having a teacher can help, perhaps to get you started, then every so often go for a session and let them critique your progress and iron out any faults . Unfortunately, my experience with teachers except for 2 that were actually friends trying to help me , has been to string out the process, so that they can get maximum payment for the least effort. I wish I could have gotten with Tor Lowry or Bert Kinnister before I got sick, I believe they would have helped me tremendously. Also gene Albrecht, unfortunately I was in too bad of physical shape to perform when I discovered him. I am sure there are a lot of younger guys who are great , just have to find them.
Then in about 80 Bob Byrne came out with a mountain of information , compared to the other available material, and now , in 2023 if you had the right books and videos, you could lock yourself in a room for 2 years, practiced 8 hours a day , and if you had even average hand eye coordination, and 110 iq , you could walk out and be able to win some matches at many tournaments. If you were very adept mentally and had excellent coordination. You could possibly walk out and be able to compete with anyone who wasn't a professional and you might even beat some of them.
There are great books on the mechanics, theory, and even dealing with the emotional parts of the game. I think Bob Henning is highly underrated by the way .
I do think having a teacher can help, perhaps to get you started, then every so often go for a session and let them critique your progress and iron out any faults . Unfortunately, my experience with teachers except for 2 that were actually friends trying to help me , has been to string out the process, so that they can get maximum payment for the least effort. I wish I could have gotten with Tor Lowry or Bert Kinnister before I got sick, I believe they would have helped me tremendously. Also gene Albrecht, unfortunately I was in too bad of physical shape to perform when I discovered him. I am sure there are a lot of younger guys who are great , just have to find them.
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
This bolded statement is unfortunately spot on and really grinds my gears. There are streamlined ways to teach in line with the way in which we acquire motor skills. Some coaches deliberately don't use those methods because hey, why teach someone the same thing in a 1 hour lesson that you can teach them in 10+.
This isn't as much of an issue with pool, but it's been drawn out to the extreme in golf. I once witnessed a $150 'lesson' on the range that pretty much gave the same information a 5-10min video on YouTube could provide to a beginner. Worse yet, it was the wrong stuff to be addressing with such a student, even tho it is the prescribed order of things in a popular teaching methodology....which I'm convinced was deliberately designed this way to create repeat customers. Meanwhile there are golf instructors out there teaching in a way that has students swinging with effortless speed within a session. The difference in time it takes to get to an average golfer level can amount to YEARS. Many, following the first method never get there. Sad but true. Pool is not as extreme but there can be a helluva lot of difference in how quickly you progress with one coach vs another simply bc one will be willing to provide little insights that the other one will keep to himself (or in worst case scenario doesn't even know himself but is just parroting other coaches).
Some of this replying to your post and part just general commentary. I strongly agree with your post. A lot of moderately advanced players make errors in the planning of a shot and it is doomed before they shoot. Often they comment, "well at least I got perfect shape!" Few things in my play annoyed me as as much as making half the shot, particularly making shape and missing the ball. That meant the shot was wrong before I ever addressed the cue ball. I far preferred to miss both sides of the shot and think that execution failed rather than planning.
The entire run out should be planned before you get down on the first ball. Maybe you are making a few balls to get a great safety, maybe you are pocketing the money ball, whatever you are doing should be planned before you start shooting. That makes the entire inning flow and can discourage all but the upper pro players when shooting against you. This means I disbelieve in the rolling three ball planning. That means thinking between every shot and on a good day the entire run out is one action with no thought required.
Few recognize the power of speed and angles. I might play for several hours without moving a full tip off of centerline. I could, I just rarely needed to. Often when I used a lot of english almost all of the balls were gone off of the table and I was showboating a bit.
That reminds me of another core principle, don't shoot a hard shot with tough shape. Obviously it can happen when you are shooting off of the other player's leave, but as you are planning the pattern before starting you should be aware of the entire run and you know you are going to have to spin the cue ball hard. It happens that big spin is needed but try to play excellent shape so the shot where you need to really spin the cue ball is almost a tap in on the object ball.
At first it seemed beyond my control but I learned it really wasn't. Funny thing, cue ball shape was easier with the mud ball many hated! With the same weight balls to start with the cue ball gradually gets lighter than the other balls as it is hit far more often and tiny flecks come off of it. Much better to have a heavier, maybe bigger, cue ball to control both it and the object ball.
More than one person has worked for years to learn to control balls with spin then when they understand speed and angles they consider all of the time they worked to master spin wasted. It wasn't really. However, there were long sessions where I only needed big spin once or twice. I still used it to run end to end of an empty table but I didn't need it during those times.
Hu
Excellent point. Playing pool isn't necessarily the same as practicing pool, unless your goal when playing is to work on strategy or proper position play.
Practice should involve working on a specific part of your game for the purpose of improvement.
donniesoup
New member
Besides playing better sit at a table with better players while watching other players play. Dissect their game and ask questions of what and why they would do something.
George the Greek
Active member
I had a friend do a short video of me hitting balls once when I was out of sorts and I watched it over and over for a week and thought wow that's pretty bad and realized how sloppy I had gotten. I went back to the poolhall with an awareness and my friend recorded that session and I was back to normal lol. It's pretty easy to let things slip a little and not realize it.
When I play a player that’s better than me, which is almost always…lol, I use safeties a lot and they know I will.
I also ask my self this question before every shot “how many balls can I realistically run and on what ball do I need to play safety?”
The other thing this one guy and I did a while back was to go on the Fargo website and look up handicaps based on Fargo rating.
They have it there.
He and I play often and it’s mostly 10 and 8-ball.
Based on our Fargo I start on 5 games in a race to 13. This has been great for both of us. It gets his attention and obviously mine too since I don’t want him to catch up.
George the Greek
Active member
That's part of the learning process for sure!
I am coming in late and confession is I haven't read all 6 pages.
In the beginning, I considered it paying for lessons. I could win money in B tournament and ring games. I then had a budget to invest in lessons.
When Backward Jan made his loop through the Seattle Tacoma area, I started playing him once a week on his Tacoma route. I budgeted $20 and my initial goal was to see how long I could make it last. It didn't take long for me to figure that it lasted as long as he was in the mood for, usually about an hour. So after a few of the "lessons" I realized that I could possibly get more for the money by asking him for lessons. Regular lessons not just trying to learn from watching.
His answer to my request surprised me in a good way. His stipulation was, he would give me lessons on the condition that we go back to the basics.(I considered myself a B+ almost A
player) His answer showed me that he not only knew how to play but also knew how to teach. 6 weeks at $20@ was the best money I ever invested in my pool game. Oh yeah, his second stipulation was, no gambling while taking lessons.
Oh yeah after 6 weeks when he headed south for Arizona, I made my investment back double the first week.
In the beginning, I considered it paying for lessons. I could win money in B tournament and ring games. I then had a budget to invest in lessons.
When Backward Jan made his loop through the Seattle Tacoma area, I started playing him once a week on his Tacoma route. I budgeted $20 and my initial goal was to see how long I could make it last. It didn't take long for me to figure that it lasted as long as he was in the mood for, usually about an hour. So after a few of the "lessons" I realized that I could possibly get more for the money by asking him for lessons. Regular lessons not just trying to learn from watching.
His answer to my request surprised me in a good way. His stipulation was, he would give me lessons on the condition that we go back to the basics.(I considered myself a B+ almost A
player) His answer showed me that he not only knew how to play but also knew how to teach. 6 weeks at $20@ was the best money I ever invested in my pool game. Oh yeah, his second stipulation was, no gambling while taking lessons.Oh yeah after 6 weeks when he headed south for Arizona, I made my investment back double the first week.
A couple of thoughts, in the "ole" days we called it paying your dues. Not sure if this term is used much today with everything handicapped. When I was learning to play I would get a spot, the "7" from one of the best players in my area for a dollar a game. He was a typical pool player. Flush or busted. He knew I was worth $10 and I covered the table time. He wouldn't always play but if he needed the money bad enough he would.
As other have stated, balance your play vs. players way better than yourself vs. players a little better than yourself vs. players at the same level vs. players that are worse. In my area you could do this playing weekly tournaments. Some of them would attract the best players in the area for a nominal entry. Then you could always find other smaller tournaments at local pubs that didn't have as strong players. It's easier on the psych not get your head kicked in all the time.
One last thing, instead of looking at a match as whether you should win or lose. Go in with the mindset of developing a consistent pre shot routine and delivering a quality stroke on each and every shot. The micro look can help with the nerves playing against champions. This tidbit comes from Mark Wilson.
As other have stated, balance your play vs. players way better than yourself vs. players a little better than yourself vs. players at the same level vs. players that are worse. In my area you could do this playing weekly tournaments. Some of them would attract the best players in the area for a nominal entry. Then you could always find other smaller tournaments at local pubs that didn't have as strong players. It's easier on the psych not get your head kicked in all the time.
One last thing, instead of looking at a match as whether you should win or lose. Go in with the mindset of developing a consistent pre shot routine and delivering a quality stroke on each and every shot. The micro look can help with the nerves playing against champions. This tidbit comes from Mark Wilson.
The best advice is don't` miss!
Have your own goals. When you play them, whomever they may be, do it for a reason. The goal doesn't always have to be winning.
I ain't beating Rory 1 v 1 but if I could get off just one good approach shot..might be all I'm looking for
I ain't beating Rory 1 v 1 but if I could get off just one good approach shot..might be all I'm looking for
Gambling......15 years of learning, 15 years of earning, and 15 years of yearning.
Like most old geezers I used to be better, a lot better. "Back when I beat Wally Mosconi..."
Hu