Pocket Opens? What Should They Measure?

[Eric M.]

I have a Brunswick Orleans table and just recently picked up a Brunswick Manhattan (1890) which will need cushions and cloth. I started looking into the proper opening for pockets for when I do the Manhattan and it seems my Orleans is about 1/2" wider at both corner and side pockets. Both tables are 9' and I'm playing "American Pool", mostly 8 ball with standard 2 1/4" balls. The WPA and CSI are both calling for 4 1/2" at the corners and 5" at the sides. I've seen all the specs for angles and such, but am wondering, what happened to my Orleans? Should I follow these specs when doing my Manhattan or are these some tighter regulation specs you only see in professional tournaments and not home or bar tables?

Thanks,

Eric M.

 

[rexus31]

Brunswick has never met the WPA specs except for their Tournament Edition Gold Crowns. Standard Brunswick corners are 4 7/8" to 5 1/8".

 

[Eric M.]

Thanks. So that would put the sides at about 5 1/2" which makes my Orleans OK and not butchered.

-I take it that it would be foolish to alter the pocket openings with subrail extensions on the Manhattan to get to WPA standards as that would affect the value of an antique table? Or is it not really an issue since it could easily go back with a cushion change and extension removal?

-If I keep with the Brunswick design, does anyone have the angles and specs for their pockets?

Thanks,

Eric M.

 

[garczar]

Thanks. So that would put the sides at about 5 1/2" which makes my Orleans OK and not butchered.

-I take it that it would be foolish to alter the pocket openings with subrail extensions on the Manhattan to get to WPA standards as that would affect the value of an antique table? Or is it not really an issue since it could easily go back with a cushion change and extension removal?

-If I keep with the Brunswick design, does anyone have the angles and specs for their pockets?

Thanks,

Eric M.

A simple/cheap way to snug-up your pockets is to use the thick facings that Classic Billiards sells. Not as good as a full-on subrail mod but WAAAAY cheaper. https://www.classicbilliards.net/cu...urometer-hardness-die-cut-cushion-facing.html

 

[Eric M.]

I read that those are much harder than cushions and will not play the same in the (infrequent) times a ball might hit them.
Plus, wouldn't the rail extensions need to be tapered on a Brunswick? You are closing up the mouth, the opening at the pocket irons is still the same. I think the angles are what need to be changed to get to 4 1/2" and 5"... I think.

 

[garczar]

I read that those are much harder than cushions and will not play the same in the (infrequent) times a ball might hit them.
Plus, wouldn't the rail extensions need to be tapered on a Brunswick? You are closing up the mouth, the opening at the pocket irons is still the same. I think the angles are what need to be changed to get to 4 1/2" and 5"... I think.

They get hit all the time. same as regular facings just thicker. i've played on GC with these and it played fine. sure a subrail mod is better but unless you do it yourself you're looking at spending 1500bux or so.

 

[Eric M.]

I would be doing it myself when I do the cushions. Am I right that they will need to be angled / tapered?
I've got all the measurements and angles from the CSI regulations, but what I don't have is the measurement at the pocket right at the shelf edge. Odd that no one specs that. Looking at those cushion facings, it looks like they would restrict that opening a bit also if not tapered.

Maybe I'm over thinking this but based on how everything is labeled to the degree and 1/16", I would think someone would mention the measurement of the pocket at the shelf rather than making us work backwards from the mouth opening using the angles. If the rails or cushions are different depths, that would change that dimension.

At 141 degrees on both sides of a corner pocket, the distance between those 2 vectors get closer together as you get further from their origin point. What should it measure at the shelf? I'm not even sure how you'd change that without throwing off the angles.

Maybe the mouth and angles are the important thing and not so much the opening at the shelf?

I'm just going in circles at this point! Maybe I need to draw a picture.

 

[rexus31]

I would be doing it myself when I do the cushions. Am I right that they will need to be angled / tapered?
I've got all the measurements and angles from the CSI regulations, but what I don't have is the measurement at the pocket right at the shelf edge. Odd that no one specs that. Looking at those cushion facings, it looks like they would restrict that opening a bit also if not tapered.

Maybe I'm over thinking this but based on how everything is labeled to the degree and 1/16", I would think someone would mention the measurement of the pocket at the shelf rather than making us work backwards from the mouth opening using the angles. If the rails or cushions are different depths, that would change that dimension.

At 141 degrees on both sides of a corner pocket, the distance between those 2 vectors get closer together as you get further from their origin point. What should it measure at the shelf? I'm not even sure how you'd change that without throwing off the angles.

Maybe the mouth and angles are the important thing and not so much the opening at the shelf?

I'm just going in circles at this point! Maybe I need to draw a picture.

You will also have to adjust the subrail bevel so modern cushions properly fit the subrail to ensure correct nose height and the playing surface retains a true 2:1 ratio.

 

[Eric M.]

Is there anything wrong with using the K66 cushions that work with the Manhattan? I'm pretty sure the height is correct. The 2:1 ratio plays back to what I had mentioned, the depth of the cushions and rails and how they alter the pocket angles and openings.

Maybe I should just put it back together the way Brunswick intended.

 

[Dartman]

...
Maybe I should just put it back together the way Brunswick intended.

What a great idea

 

[boogieman]

Is there anything wrong with using the K66 cushions that work with the Manhattan? I'm pretty sure the height is correct. The 2:1 ratio plays back to what I had mentioned, the depth of the cushions and rails and how they alter the pocket angles and openings.

Maybe I should just put it back together the way Brunswick intended.

I am not a mechanic.

It sounds like you are still in the research stage. That's good. You need a bunch more research. Antique tables are constructed differently and many will need the entire rails beveled at a different angle to fit modern cushions, even if you don't do anything with the pockets this will need to be done if replacing the rubber with modern rubber.

For some homework, look up "diamondize" "diamondizing" "diamondized" and "sub rail extension" on google. In google in the search box type:
site:www.website.com then your search term. The search here is kind of bad, but if you search the forum through google you will find a lot of info.

Basically the pockets have a compound angle and it's not as simple as just chopping off a piece of wood and sticking it to the current wood. You have to do the correct angle both horizontally and vertically.

This is a thread where I fixed my Olhausen. It's not the "correct" way by doing a subrail extension, but it worked great. That 50 durometer rubber is the key if you go this way. It's softer than the 60 durometer type so it plays better on thicker facings.

Pay special attention to threads on diamondizing where @realkingcobra posts. He is one of the top guys to do this kind of work. There are other mechanics that can do this but I think Glen is one of the best and also one who shares more info on the nuts and bolts of the process.

Personally I think I'd be really careful with whatever you do to the table, it's an antique, and they aren't making more of them should a mistake occur. Arm yourself with this info, even if you decide not to go the DIY route because 95% of the self proclaimed mechanics cant or wont do this type of work. It's kind of like how your local garage can easily do a brake job but might not be the person you go to to port your race engine. Most "mechanics" are very good at moving a table, at putting on cloth, some can level a table properly, but when it comes to actually changing and tuning a table, most fall flat on their face.

If you're handy you could do the work, but you're going to have to put some work in to intimately understand what you must do to minimize the risk of ruining an antique table.

Personally if your rubber is good and you had to have a tight table I'd do something similar to in my olhausen fix thread linked earlier. That's way less likely to cause permanent damage to the table and it could be put back to original specs if you wanted. I'm sure your table is a cool one. I'd be tempted to leave it as is and learn straight pool.

 

[fastone371]

I would be doing it myself when I do the cushions. Am I right that they will need to be angled / tapered?
I've got all the measurements and angles from the CSI regulations, but what I don't have is the measurement at the pocket right at the shelf edge. Odd that no one specs that. Looking at those cushion facings, it looks like they would restrict that opening a bit also if not tapered.

Maybe I'm over thinking this but based on how everything is labeled to the degree and 1/16", I would think someone would mention the measurement of the pocket at the shelf rather than making us work backwards from the mouth opening using the angles. If the rails or cushions are different depths, that would change that dimension.

At 141 degrees on both sides of a corner pocket, the distance between those 2 vectors get closer together as you get further from their origin point. What should it measure at the shelf? I'm not even sure how you'd change that without throwing off the angles.

Maybe the mouth and angles are the important thing and not so much the opening at the shelf?

I'm just going in circles at this point! Maybe I need to draw a picture.

This is just a guess but you probably dont see a dimension at the shelf because many tables have different shelf depths, you would need a measurement on each different shelf depth which cant be measured until the table is put together. The pocket angles can be measured and cut with the rails off of the table while building them.

 

[Eric M.]

I am not a mechanic.

It sounds like you are still in the research stage. That's good. You need a bunch more research. Antique tables are constructed differently and many will need the entire rails beveled at a different angle to fit modern cushions, even if you don't do anything with the pockets this will need to be done if replacing the rubber with modern rubber.

For some homework, look up "diamondize" "diamondizing" "diamondized" and "sub rail extension" on google. In google in the search box type:
site:www.website.com then your search term. The search here is kind of bad, but if you search the forum through google you will find a lot of info.

Basically the pockets have a compound angle and it's not as simple as just chopping off a piece of wood and sticking it to the current wood. You have to do the correct angle both horizontally and vertically.

This is a thread where I fixed my Olhausen. It's not the "correct" way by doing a subrail extension, but it worked great. That 50 durometer rubber is the key if you go this way. It's softer than the 60 durometer type so it plays better on thicker facings.

Pay special attention to threads on diamondizing where @realkingcobra posts. He is one of the top guys to do this kind of work. There are other mechanics that can do this but I think Glen is one of the best and also one who shares more info on the nuts and bolts of the process.

Personally I think I'd be really careful with whatever you do to the table, it's an antique, and they aren't making more of them should a mistake occur. Arm yourself with this info, even if you decide not to go the DIY route because 95% of the self proclaimed mechanics cant or wont do this type of work. It's kind of like how your local garage can easily do a brake job but might not be the person you go to to port your race engine. Most "mechanics" are very good at moving a table, at putting on cloth, some can level a table properly, but when it comes to actually changing and tuning a table, most fall flat on their face.

If you're handy you could do the work, but you're going to have to put some work in to intimately understand what you must do to minimize the risk of ruining an antique table.

Personally if your rubber is good and you had to have a tight table I'd do something similar to in my olhausen fix thread linked earlier. That's way less likely to cause permanent damage to the table and it could be put back to original specs if you wanted. I'm sure your table is a cool one. I'd be tempted to leave it as is and learn straight pool.

Thanks Boogieman,

That's all good advice and yes, I'm just starting the research for this project. Something else I should mention, the rails are not original (Probably should have mentioned that in the OP). They were fabricated by Adler, Kardale Billiards Mfg Co. Apparently the original were past the point of repair years ago. I need to assemble the rails and determine how the new ones were built. Did they mimic the originals or did they follow CSI specs and accept newer cushions. I'll remove the cloth and see if I can determine what cushion is on it now. This is one of the reasons I'm not to concerned about making changes to the rails.

But, I might have a line on an original set of Manhattan rails. If I can get these, I think your plan of putting the table back to original specs might be the best plan.

I will follow up on both the Adler rails and if I can secure a set of originals and post up.

I'll read your thread "Olhausen Rattle" later today and thanks for the advice.

 

[Eric M.]

I could not find a set of 140 year old rails that didn't look like 140 year old rails .... beat to hell. So, I stuck with the Adlers. I also didn't try to modify the pocket openings, I kept the Brunswick 5" for the corner and 5 1/2" for the sides pockets (Adler kept. this with their replacement rails for the Manhattan). What I did end up doing was using the Cue Sports International pocket angle specs (Same as WPA) to cut the angles on my new cushions, 141 degrees at the corner pockets and 110 degrees at the sides. This was almost required as the design of the Adler rails made it very difficult to use the miter cut in the wood to guide a blade, it just wasn't wide enough to do it accurately. This really worked out well, the pocket openings are dead on and I know I have the correct angles. I think I'll probably use this method in the future when installing new cushions.

The Adler rails are really growing on me. I have the Brunswick brass rail bolt covers which I was just going to screw into the Adler rails to give it that antique Brunswick look, but I'm not sure if I'm going to do that now. I'll live with it for a while the way it is.
Accufast K66 cushions (What the rails were designed for and gave me correct height)
Simonis 860 cloth (Really liking this over the Champion I used before .... sorry, it's red)

 

[garczar]

You lost me at red. Just my take but it 'might' look good in a old-west cathouse. Might. Wife-factor come into play i guess/hope? nice table and job tho so there is that.

 

[Eric M.]

"Wife-factor come into play i guess/hope?"

LOL, you nailed it. She got the red to tie in with the curtains and that red wall you see in the background. Life is all about compromises!

 

[rexus31]

Like is all about compromises!

Until your eyes start hurting from fatigue.

 

[garczar]

I've actually played quite a bit on red-rug tables and its fine to play on, balls are easy to see. Used to be a bar in town, The Wheeler Dealer, that had an old west theme with red Valley's. We played league there and the only bad part was the red chalk u had to use. All your shit was bathed in red dust at end of nite.

 

[Eric M.]

I like your comparison to the old-west cathouse. That's going to be the new theme in my living room.