Predator World 8 Ball Championship (Nov 19-22), Puerto Rico, Winner $60K

tomatoshooter

Well-known member
probably humidity, and the tables have been played on already, in the tournament preceding this one. all that plus the suboptimal racking is a good thing for 8-ball at this level and with these pockets. makes it more interesting.
100% At that level the game has almost been solved, a reasonable variation makes it more interesting.
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
appleton vs chang yu long seems have some controversy with the second timeout now in two racks. first was when darren missed the 8-ball and going off on chang for sharking, second was chang flinging balls around after darren made the 8-ball
 

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
appleton vs chang yu long seems have some controversy with the second timeout now in two racks. first was when darren missed the 8-ball and going off on chang for sharking, second was chang flinging balls around after darren made the 8-ball
Souquet also getting snippy with the referee about the shot clock operation.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I'm going to push back on both pieces of this narrative a little.

Total prize fund is a good measure if you're comparing events of similar size and can be misleading otherwise. Consider events with $500 entry and $50K added. The prize fund will vary a lot whether it is 64, 128, or 256 players [82K, 114K, and $178K]. But these three events will all have a 1st place prize of around $30K and will be similarly hard to win. They won't look all that different to the top pros.

The distribution (prize fund falloff) doesn't vary all that much. Here I compare the US Pro Billiard Series event (Puerto Rico) that just finished to the International Open from a few weeks ago. Both had 128 players, so it is apples to apples. With my "first place prize" measure, I call the US Pro Billiard Series event $25K, and I call the International Open $30K, i.e., 20% higher. Below are the details.

First, the total prize funds are $100K and $114K. So INO is 14% higher, not 20% higher.

Second you will notice both pay 25% of the field and the payouts are essentially the same for those who finish 5 through 32. So this actually makes the International Open a little more top heavy with 58% of the prize fund to the top 4 (as opposed to 52% for the US Pro Series Event)

When talking about how much money is in pro pool, it is common to compare to a favorite spectator sport or to some other goofy gaff competition. But there is only one reasonable comparison that actually informs pro pool's trajectory, and that is how do we compare to ourselves of a few years ago or a decade ago. By that measure we are exploding. Between men and women, and with the $20K 1st place standard, there are this year 25 events! (13 10-Ball, 9 9-Ball, 1 8-Ball and 1 One Pocket). This would, I believe, be in the single digits anytime before the pandemic going back a long time.
Great post. Yes, the International was also top-heavy in the payouts, but it's an independent event. The complexities in a fair comparison across events are obvious, but I'll take my shot.

At Matchroom majors, things look different. I'll use the UK Open, which had a low entry fee, as an example. I compared it to the just-completed Puerto Rico Open and to the World 10-ball, normalizing for field size.

UK Open - Field of 256, 1/2 the field got paid
Top 32 (1/8 of the field) received 77% of the total payout
Top 8 (1/32 of the field) received 43% of the total payout
Top 4 (1/64 of the field) got 26% of the total payout.

World 10 ball - Field of 128, 1/4 of the field got paid
Top 16 (1/8 of the field) received 89% of the total payout
Top 4 (1/32 of the field) received 62% of the total payout
Top 2 (1/64 of the field) received 44% of the total payout

Puerto Rico Open - Field of 128, 1/4 of the field got paid
Top 16 (1/8 of the field) received 84% of the total payout
Top 4 (1/32 of the field) received 52% of the total payout
Top 2 (1/64 of the field) received 38% of the total payout

For the moment, it's not about who is right and who is wrong, but Matchroom is clearly less top heavy in its payout philosophy than CSI/Predator events. I think it's part of why they so easily fill fields of 256, usually on the same day they begin to accept entries. Just one man's opinion.

On a positive note, it does look like CSI/Predator is moving in the right direction, as the payout structure in the Puerto Rico Open was less top-heavy than that of the World 10-ball.

In the end, Mike, my only concern is whether top heavy payout structures will negatively impact participation, and I believe it will. Just my slant on things.

After all is said and done, credit to CSI/Predator for its growing support of pro pool - we're only debating some of the details.
 

tomatoshooter

Well-known member
Great post. Yes, the International was also top-heavy in the payouts, but it's an independent event. The complexities in a fair comparison across events are obvious, but I'll take my shot.

At Matchroom majors, things look different. I'll use the UK Open, which had a low entry fee, as an example. I compared it to the just-completed Puerto Rico Open and to the World 10-ball, normalizing for field size.

UK Open - Field of 256, 1/2 the field got paid
Top 32 (1/8 of the field) received 77% of the total payout
Top 8 (1/32 of the field) received 43% of the total payout
Top 4 (1/64 of the field) got 26% of the total payout.

World 10 ball - Field of 128, 1/4 of the field got paid
Top 16 (1/8 of the field) received 89% of the total payout
Top 4 (1/32 of the field) received 62% of the total payout
Top 2 (1/64 of the field) received 44% of the total payout

Puerto Rico Open - Field of 128, 1/4 of the field got paid
Top 16 (1/8 of the field) received 84% of the total payout
Top 4 (1/32 of the field) received 52% of the total payout
Top 2 (1/64 of the field) received 38% of the total payout

For the moment, it's not about who is right and who is wrong, but Matchroom is clearly less top heavy in its payout philosophy than CSI/Predator events. I think it's part of why they so easily fill fields of 256, usually on the same day they begin to accept entries. Just one man's opinion.

On a positive note, it does look like CSI/Predator is moving in the right direction, as the payout structure in the Puerto Rico Open was less top-heavy than that of the World 10-ball.

In the end, Mike, my only concern is whether top heavy payout structures will negatively impact participation, and I believe it will. Just my slant on things.

After all is said and done, credit to CSI/Predator for its growing support of pro pool - we're only debating some of the details.
Half the field got paid in the UK Open. That's very good, if my math is right, you have to win 2 matches to get paid. Do you know what the payout was for them? I'm wondering what the break even payout would have to be, probably about $1000.
 

kris

New member
The one thing that CSI/Predator does much much better than Matchroom is streaming of the event. Involving Kozoom, especially with free account, is the way to go. 20 tables, you are free to chose which player match you follow. Whereas with Matchroom you are kind of forced to watch the same guys all the time, no matter which tournament it is.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
What happened?
Post 79 sums up what happened, but I'll give some more information. It was Game #13, score 7-5 in Makkonen's favor. After a dry break by Yoshioka, the pocketing of 5 solids by Makkonen, and a safety by each player, Makkonen had to kick at one of his remaining two balls. He missed the intended hit but hit the other solid, so it was a legal shot. Yoshioka had his hand over the 4-ball to pick it up, apparently thinking Makkonen had fouled. Referee Leyman called out "ah, ah" or something like that, stopping Yoshioka from fouling. Makkonen was peeved and informed Leyman of his mistake. The game went on a long time after that with lots of safeties. Yoshioka got out after Makkonen made a great kick off the foot rail at his 4-ball hanging in the head-rail pocket on the same side of the table. The cue ball touched the 4-ball but it didn't fall, and Yoshioka got out.

Except for Leyman's mistake, it was an interesting game to watch. It lasted over 16 minutes, including racking.
 
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sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
The one thing that CSI/Predator does much much better than Matchroom is streaming of the event. Involving Kozoom, especially with free account, is the way to go. 20 tables, you are free to chose which player match you follow. Whereas with Matchroom you are kind of forced to watch the same guys all the time, no matter which tournament it is.
That's a very good point. If you subscribe to Kozoom, you really get a lot of pool and can follow your favorite players. On the other hand, the commentary you get in Matchroom events is head and shoulders above what you get in CSI/Predator events, and that matters a lot to this fan.
 

decent dennis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Post 79 sums up what happened, but I'll give some more information. It was Game #13, score 7-5 in Makkonen's favor. After a dry break by Yoshioka, the pocketing of 5 solids by Makkonen, and a safety by each player, Makkonen had to kick at one of his remaining two balls. He missed the intended hit but hit the other solid, so it was a legal shot. Yoshioka had his hand over the 4-ball to pick it up, apparently thinking Makkonen had fouled. Referee Leyman called out "ah, ah" or something like that, stopping Yoshioka from fouling. Makkonen was peeved and informed Leyman of his mistake. The game went on a long time after that with lots of safeties. Yoshioka got out after Makkonen made a great kick off the foot rail at his 4-ball hanging in the head-rail pocket on the same side of the table. The cue ball touched the 4-ball but it didn't fall, and Yoshioka got out.

Except for Leyman's mistake, it was an interesting game to watch. It lasted over 16 minutes, including racking.
Thanks
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Half the field got paid in the UK Open. That's very good, if my math is right, you have to win 2 matches to get paid. Do you know what the payout was for them? I'm wondering what the break even payout would have to be, probably about $1000.
Don't know. Typically, the lowest payout is about enough to cover the entry fee, and never enough to cover all participation expenses, which are probably a little more than $1,000.
 

decent dennis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So there is no shot clock on the outer tables? Sorry if this has been discussed. Watching Grabe and Chua each look at shots for about 5minutes each
 

Scratch85

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Except for Leyman's mistake, it was an interesting game to watch. It lasted over 16 minutes, including racking.

Leyman’s error likely added to the interest of the game. After the error, in my gut, I was just hoping Makkonen got out. He played many good/difficult shots that just didn’t pay off. Each time it was hard for me to fade. Can’t imagine what he was feeling.

If Makkonen received BIH, it surely wouldn’t have had the same conclusion. Probably the most interesting single game I’ve seen this week.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

tomatoshooter

Well-known member
Leyman’s error likely added to the interest of the game. After the error, in my gut, I was just hoping Makkonen got out. He played many good/difficult shots that just didn’t pay off. Each time it was hard for me to fade. Can’t imagine what he was feeling.

If Makkonen received BIH, it surely wouldn’t have had the same conclusion. Probably the most interesting single game I’ve seen this week.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I haven't seen the game in question but, I'd prefer the game to be decided on the table and not by the player mistakenly grabbing the ball. Is the ref preventing the foul that different than waning a guy he's on two fouls? Both are preventing a player from making a bad decision.
 

nicksaint26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I haven't seen the game in question but, I'd prefer the game to be decided on the table and not by the player mistakenly grabbing the ball. Is the ref preventing the foul that different than waning a guy he's on two fouls? Both are preventing a player from making a bad decision.

I have to disagree the ref should not be involved in preventing fouls from happening, that is the players responsibility! Should he warn them if they are going to shoot the wrong ball? Where does it end?
 

Nick B

This is gonna hurt
Silver Member
I haven't seen the game in question but, I'd prefer the game to be decided on the table and not by the player mistakenly grabbing the ball. Is the ref preventing the foul that different than waning a guy he's on two fouls? Both are preventing a player from making a bad decision.
I hate to say it but Leyman makes way too many mistakes. More interested in being the center of attention than doing his job. Always seems to be in the wrong position and blows more calls than should be allowed. In the words of Jay H...it is a requirement of a good referee to be in the correct position AND not be the center of attention.

I miss Nigel R. Knew how to control a crowd and not project himself as more important than the game. Pure class and accuracy.

 
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