Does your group own the building? If so and someone is leasing the building when not in use, I don't see thesignificant cost amounts talked about above. If you don't own then understandable.
Pro Pool players courting disaster
- Thread starter jay helfert
- Start date
Does your group own the building? If so and someone is leasing the building when not in use, I don't see thesignificant cost amounts talked about above. If you don't own then understandable.
I started playing in the early 90's. Then, the pool halls were packed, with tons of bangers, and all the way to local open players.
The weekly handicapped tournaments would fill every single week with 64 players with a waiting list.
The regional $75 entry open 9 ball tournaments would fill every event. Some people would even buy a spot, and then sell it to the people on standby for a profit.
You went into a room on a weekend night any time of the year, and there was a waiting list to get on a table.
In the summertime, all the tables would be packed every single day by the college kids.
Today, those same tournaments usually get 16 players, and if they get 24, its a good thing. I haven't seen a waiting list once in close to 10 years at my local rooms.
If you look at this same time period, the pro tournament side of pool was booming, just as the local pool business was, the local tournaments, and the regional open tournaments.
What is my point? Promoters did not kill the game of pro pool. Pool in general has systematically declined, to include all of the above areas of the game. That there are now just 3 or 4 big promoters left, is just a consequence of the general decline in the game.
If the pro game folds up, BB is not to blame. Neither is IPT, or Mackey. Its the general decline in interest of the game. This decline in interest has affected ALL level of players, from bangers, to local B's to top professionals.
Those are my 2 cents, gloomy as they are :frown:
The weekly handicapped tournaments would fill every single week with 64 players with a waiting list.
The regional $75 entry open 9 ball tournaments would fill every event. Some people would even buy a spot, and then sell it to the people on standby for a profit.
You went into a room on a weekend night any time of the year, and there was a waiting list to get on a table.
In the summertime, all the tables would be packed every single day by the college kids.
Today, those same tournaments usually get 16 players, and if they get 24, its a good thing. I haven't seen a waiting list once in close to 10 years at my local rooms.
If you look at this same time period, the pro tournament side of pool was booming, just as the local pool business was, the local tournaments, and the regional open tournaments.
What is my point? Promoters did not kill the game of pro pool. Pool in general has systematically declined, to include all of the above areas of the game. That there are now just 3 or 4 big promoters left, is just a consequence of the general decline in the game.
If the pro game folds up, BB is not to blame. Neither is IPT, or Mackey. Its the general decline in interest of the game. This decline in interest has affected ALL level of players, from bangers, to local B's to top professionals.
Those are my 2 cents, gloomy as they are :frown:
He's on Bartrams team.....
I'm not in business but I'd think anytime someone comes in and throws around cash on a new business idea their gonna step on some toes and make some grumpy.
I also think if this were to take off it would create some bigger opportunities for promoters which would be good.
As a fan of pool I think this has lots of aspects which might be fun to watch, i hope so anyways. I'm excited to see players I dont get to see often play and be mic'd up at the same time.
Not much longer now to find out
I also think if this were to take off it would create some bigger opportunities for promoters which would be good.
As a fan of pool I think this has lots of aspects which might be fun to watch, i hope so anyways. I'm excited to see players I dont get to see often play and be mic'd up at the same time.
Not much longer now to find out
DISCLAIMER: I didn't read the whole thread, but I have a good guess of what's been talked about.
I'm only going to comment one time on this.
I've been in pool for 4 short years. It only took me two years to figure out that POOL is a great and thriving sport, and that PRO-POOL is a JOKE. There's almost no money in pro-pool, and millions in the amateur arena.
Taking the above into account, NOTHING will ever really happen with pro pool. It will always be the same groaning, and back door BS. Everyone postering for this and that, but half of them are crooks, and the other half don't realize they're trying to herd cats. Until you get one person/group, that steps up, and throws a sizable amount of money at it, expecting it to be a 2-3 year loser before things turn around. See PGA, UFC, or any other pro sport. Players and promoters under legal binding contracts, to do what they say they will do, with legal ramification when they don't.
So, what's the point????? Pro-pool is anything but professional, and probably won't ever change, no matter what the game, player, promoter, etc. Why get in to pissing matches over what the right direction is? There is only one solution that has a shot at working. SCRAP THE WHOLE THING, AND START FROM SCRATCH. At some point when the project is so far beyond repair, you scrap it and start over. Many people are trying to make things better, but look around, REALLY look around, what do you see????????????
BB, TAR, Mark G all have their hearts in the right place. But unfortunately I don't think any of these three have the one exact winning formula. BB has the wrong game/format IMO, but a decent pay and contract structure. JCIN from TAR has come right out and said he doesn't put on TAR events to get paid. Mark is the closest, touching feet down on both sides of of pro/amateur fence. Do ANY of these guys have enough pull to bring promoters and players together in a fashion that forces them to produce a product of real quality??? One that make us, as consumers, pay them enough to get every one paid and turn a PROFIT??????? O yeah, that's right I forgot Profit is a dirty word in pool. The NFL, NBA, MLB, UFC, PGA, NHL, FEFA, and so on don't turn any kind of profit. The do it for the good of the sport...
I don't mean to be the guy that pisses on everybody's parade. I love pool. I enjoy the game for what it is. I love watching guys play at the highest level. From a business stand point, pro pool just isn't a money maker. Because of that, it won't succeed. If someone steps up, changes the formula, and can make some money pro-pool will take off and thrive. Until you can make it a money making proposition, it will remain what it is.
I could be wrong completely. I don't have a ton of pool experience, but I do understand how business works. Pro pool is not a business, but it should be. Until it is, I see little if any change.
Just my little $.02 from the cheap seats,
Justin
I'm only going to comment one time on this.
I've been in pool for 4 short years. It only took me two years to figure out that POOL is a great and thriving sport, and that PRO-POOL is a JOKE. There's almost no money in pro-pool, and millions in the amateur arena.
Taking the above into account, NOTHING will ever really happen with pro pool. It will always be the same groaning, and back door BS. Everyone postering for this and that, but half of them are crooks, and the other half don't realize they're trying to herd cats. Until you get one person/group, that steps up, and throws a sizable amount of money at it, expecting it to be a 2-3 year loser before things turn around. See PGA, UFC, or any other pro sport. Players and promoters under legal binding contracts, to do what they say they will do, with legal ramification when they don't.
So, what's the point????? Pro-pool is anything but professional, and probably won't ever change, no matter what the game, player, promoter, etc. Why get in to pissing matches over what the right direction is? There is only one solution that has a shot at working. SCRAP THE WHOLE THING, AND START FROM SCRATCH. At some point when the project is so far beyond repair, you scrap it and start over. Many people are trying to make things better, but look around, REALLY look around, what do you see????????????
BB, TAR, Mark G all have their hearts in the right place. But unfortunately I don't think any of these three have the one exact winning formula. BB has the wrong game/format IMO, but a decent pay and contract structure. JCIN from TAR has come right out and said he doesn't put on TAR events to get paid. Mark is the closest, touching feet down on both sides of of pro/amateur fence. Do ANY of these guys have enough pull to bring promoters and players together in a fashion that forces them to produce a product of real quality??? One that make us, as consumers, pay them enough to get every one paid and turn a PROFIT??????? O yeah, that's right I forgot Profit is a dirty word in pool. The NFL, NBA, MLB, UFC, PGA, NHL, FEFA, and so on don't turn any kind of profit. The do it for the good of the sport...
I don't mean to be the guy that pisses on everybody's parade. I love pool. I enjoy the game for what it is. I love watching guys play at the highest level. From a business stand point, pro pool just isn't a money maker. Because of that, it won't succeed. If someone steps up, changes the formula, and can make some money pro-pool will take off and thrive. Until you can make it a money making proposition, it will remain what it is.
I could be wrong completely. I don't have a ton of pool experience, but I do understand how business works. Pro pool is not a business, but it should be. Until it is, I see little if any change.
Just my little $.02 from the cheap seats,
Justin
The one thing I am getting out of this entire thread is that Bonus ball is not really interested in the health of professional pocket billiards as it has existed in our lifetimes. They only are interested in the health of bonus ball and if that fails, in the process they will likely inflict alot of secondary casualties to USA pro pool.
I can see the pro players point of view though that what they have working right now is non sustainable. They are backed into a corner and have committed their lives to a game that is not paying them back. BB is like a big tank of oxygen being offered to players who are slowly drowning. They have no clue how full the tank is, but what choice do they have?
I can see the pro players point of view though that what they have working right now is non sustainable. They are backed into a corner and have committed their lives to a game that is not paying them back. BB is like a big tank of oxygen being offered to players who are slowly drowning. They have no clue how full the tank is, but what choice do they have?
I'm jumping into this thread a little late here (and I've learned to just stay out of these drama threads,so I'm breaking my own rule) but.... I really don't get the deal with bonus ball. I watched some of the videos posted on there website and the game does nothing for me.
If the intention (and a very good one at that) is to help professional pool why not sink all that time and millions into actual pool?
I know the argument is that the public doesn't appreciate the pace of the traditional games, it doesn't hold they're attention with the strategy, safety play and all (which I love. I can watch 2 guys playing great safes for 20 mins and be very entertained).
So why not try all the hoopla, money and fanfare on an express format that speeds up play. I remember playing a summer league where the game was texas express 8 ball (or something like that) where each suit had 4 balls plus the 8 in a 9ball rack configuration. It was a quick, fun way to play.
I imagine if the great minds got together and created rules for a similar format (maybe restricting safes in some way) it could be very entertaining for the people who aren't avid billiard enthusiasts.
I guess I just don't get the re-inventing the wheel approach with bonus ball.
My .02 cents
Jim
If the intention (and a very good one at that) is to help professional pool why not sink all that time and millions into actual pool?
I know the argument is that the public doesn't appreciate the pace of the traditional games, it doesn't hold they're attention with the strategy, safety play and all (which I love. I can watch 2 guys playing great safes for 20 mins and be very entertained).
So why not try all the hoopla, money and fanfare on an express format that speeds up play. I remember playing a summer league where the game was texas express 8 ball (or something like that) where each suit had 4 balls plus the 8 in a 9ball rack configuration. It was a quick, fun way to play.
I imagine if the great minds got together and created rules for a similar format (maybe restricting safes in some way) it could be very entertaining for the people who aren't avid billiard enthusiasts.
I guess I just don't get the re-inventing the wheel approach with bonus ball.
My .02 cents
Jim
You said more in 2 sentences than the previous 247 posts combined.
Obviously, you are not familiar with the female of our species...
So many things have been tried and failed. Pool went from "slow and boring" 14.1 on TV, to "fast and entertaining" 9 ball on TV. End result, nothing is on TV now.
Pool had the Women with all their sh!t together for years (in contrast to the men who never had their sh!t together), end result, they are all bust now just like the men and not on TV or rarely, and have 2 pro events a year.
Fast TV games have been tried like 7 ball. End result: same.
IPT pumped millions into 8 ball, and broadcast it internationally on TV. The game all the bangers know and play every week. Not opening the can of worms of him being a thief, but the point is it didn't work, the public didn't care. No one can dispute their production was excellent, and well above anything else at the time, or today even.
Its none of this guy's fault, or that promoter's fault, or the game choice, etc. Its just people losing interest in the game, or never getting the "hook" that takes them from the banger that goes in on a date, to really taking to the game like all of us here have.
I will say BB is definitely different than all the above that has been tried (and more not listed). I kind of see the person who started it looking at pool the way I have: Everything seems to have been tried already, and none of it has worked long term. Lets try something else.
If BB fails, and the last remaining 3 or 4 pro promotesrs fold up (I strongly disagree that would happen unlike many in this thread) but for the sake of arugument, that wouln'd be BB's fault at all. If you have a car taht is beat to crap, and barely moves, and then someone comes and giveis it a love tap on the bumper and it no longer moves, its not his fault. Its a culmination of everyigng in the past that happend with that car.
Same in Pool. Pro and amateur and banger alike. People just don't care. If BB can change that, more power to them. If they can't, the beat up car will just keep going until it eventually collapses, or the next guy comes around to give it some money to spruce it up for a bit.
The Florida tour mentioned above is a great example. Lots of money added, no conflict with other events, and they had like 30 players in their season finale. Again, people just don't care anymore about pool. Don't blame BB, that hasn't even started yet. And don't blame BB if everything goes to hell afterwards.
There are many intelligent minds on AZ and I thank them for chiming in here. For people who have discounted AZ to me, I remind them that the contributors on here are for the most part successful individuals who have created good lives for themselves. We have many successful businessmen and professionals who contribute to their community and society. I am proud to be a member of AZ and often find myself humble when reading about the endeavors of our other members.
By comparison I didn't amount to much, a poolroom owner who could at one time shoot a pretty good game. I loved the game so much I started working at tournaments, eventually working my way up to being a tournament director. I segued into writing for various billiard publications and then found a niche as a commentator on pool videos and live broadcasts. Somehow I have found a way to make a living out of this game that I enjoy so much. For that I'm thankful.
I appreciate that pro pool has never really taken off as a professional sport, with many fits and sputters along the way. I do see it as healthy now in some areas of the world, particularly China, where the top players are revered (and rewarded) for their skills. Same for the Philippines, where my friend Dennis is recognizable on the street and greeted everywhere he goes.
After all these years I still lend my time (and sometimes my money) to events that I deem worthy of my efforts. I don't truly enjoy the traveling anymore, preferring to kick back and enjoy the sunset of my years. But if my presence can still benefit the game and my capabilities are still there, then I will continue to lend a hand. Greg Sullivan and Mark Griffin are two of my long time friends in this sport, who share my love for the game. They both have far more energy than me when it comes to promoting pool on a professional level.
When I see their best efforts being thwarted by someone they had tried to help initially, that just sticks in my craw. I was moved to speak out on their behalf and hopefully a solution can be found. Our sport cannot afford to lose two such good promoters. We NEED events like theirs to showcase the talents of our best players. I'm sorry but I just don't see that happening with one more new gimmick game. If someone truly wanted to revitalize professional pool in this country they would not try to reinvent the wheel (as someone else so eloquently put it). Even the unenlightened masses are familiar with the game of Eight Ball, so why not start there, where at least your audience has a clue what they are watching.
Anyway, thanks again for all your input. Probably nothing will change over the course of the next two months, but at least I gave it the old college try. :smile:
By comparison I didn't amount to much, a poolroom owner who could at one time shoot a pretty good game. I loved the game so much I started working at tournaments, eventually working my way up to being a tournament director. I segued into writing for various billiard publications and then found a niche as a commentator on pool videos and live broadcasts. Somehow I have found a way to make a living out of this game that I enjoy so much. For that I'm thankful.
I appreciate that pro pool has never really taken off as a professional sport, with many fits and sputters along the way. I do see it as healthy now in some areas of the world, particularly China, where the top players are revered (and rewarded) for their skills. Same for the Philippines, where my friend Dennis is recognizable on the street and greeted everywhere he goes.
After all these years I still lend my time (and sometimes my money) to events that I deem worthy of my efforts. I don't truly enjoy the traveling anymore, preferring to kick back and enjoy the sunset of my years. But if my presence can still benefit the game and my capabilities are still there, then I will continue to lend a hand. Greg Sullivan and Mark Griffin are two of my long time friends in this sport, who share my love for the game. They both have far more energy than me when it comes to promoting pool on a professional level.
When I see their best efforts being thwarted by someone they had tried to help initially, that just sticks in my craw. I was moved to speak out on their behalf and hopefully a solution can be found. Our sport cannot afford to lose two such good promoters. We NEED events like theirs to showcase the talents of our best players. I'm sorry but I just don't see that happening with one more new gimmick game. If someone truly wanted to revitalize professional pool in this country they would not try to reinvent the wheel (as someone else so eloquently put it). Even the unenlightened masses are familiar with the game of Eight Ball, so why not start there, where at least your audience has a clue what they are watching.
Anyway, thanks again for all your input. Probably nothing will change over the course of the next two months, but at least I gave it the old college try. :smile:
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LOL!
It's like high school up in here with all these different cliques.
B I N G O :thumbup:
uh huh
Jay's latest post is one of his most eloquent.......I respect his opinions about the pool world, and I like his historical knowledge and storytelling...
The best years for me as a fan was during the period they had the Sands Reno Tournaments, the Caesar's Lake Tahoe tournaments, and most of all, the Camel Pro Tour. I loved going to those tournaments. Obviously, I wish there was something more like it today. I was really happy when the IPT started, but that also fell by the wayside. In a nutshell, I think pool will always be around as a hobby or amusement for people, but professionally, it just can't seem to fly.
Remember the old saying, "Just do what you love, the money will come."?
Pool as a living certainly seems to be an exception.
Jay's latest post is one of his most eloquent.......I respect his opinions about the pool world, and I like his historical knowledge and storytelling...
The best years for me as a fan was during the period they had the Sands Reno Tournaments, the Caesar's Lake Tahoe tournaments, and most of all, the Camel Pro Tour. I loved going to those tournaments. Obviously, I wish there was something more like it today. I was really happy when the IPT started, but that also fell by the wayside. In a nutshell, I think pool will always be around as a hobby or amusement for people, but professionally, it just can't seem to fly.
Remember the old saying, "Just do what you love, the money will come."?
Pool as a living certainly seems to be an exception.
Man how I miss those times. Yes, my local room was the same. Always had tourneys full weekly too, and they were not having to be handicapped to try drawing people in. Now, they don't even have local tournaments. Just the regional tours you travel too.
This will not change until good people put a family oriented environment around the game again, and display it to the public in the proper way. And without that, everything all the way to the top, and throughout the whole industry, will remain the same.
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Wow, I oversleep and miss the party, 17 pages already.
Some real good discussion on both sides but here's my take on at least part of the issues raised.
All this talk about "trust me" money aside, without posting a current bank statement on this forum we will all continue to speculate on how well capitalized BB really is. Putting aside whether the BB scheduling is a deliberate FU to the other established events or not, it just seems to me that in the scheme of things this is not in the best interests of the enterprise. If it was me I would definitely have scheduled around these events and used them as promotional opportunities to get the word out about BB. I'd strongly encourage the players to attend these events, even paying their entry fees and supplying them with polo shirts with the BB logo (as well as their other sponsors) prominently displayed. I'd further support these other events by buying booth space at every single one to set up a table to give demonstrations of the new game and generate some interest.
But they chose not to take advantage of these opportunities to promote the venture. So it seems about the only people that even know about it are posting in this thread, and the reaction is obviously not 100% positive.
The fact that BB took the other route could hint that the money is already getting tight so damn the torpedoes they need to plod ahead with this thing before the well runs dry. Or perhaps part of the strategy in addition to stepping on the scheduling toes of the the US Opens, is to separate some of the league players from the herd since they are conveniently already in Las Vegas, to fill seats in the BB arena. If the case, I don't know who may have suggested this idea but if I were in the small council chamber at the time I would have said to forget it. CSI realizes that to get any of these members to attend a pro event that historically has taken place not more than two doors down the hall from where the herd was grazing they needed to offer them free admission.
All this under a depressed climate for the economy of pool. So, what with the construction delays that cost the start of BB months (wasn't it originally billed as a one week delay?), it just seems to me the real relevant analogy is that BB is like a new player trying to run out but looking at a difficult table layout with all kinds of clusters and problem balls, and is hooked on the 2 ball facing a three rail kick.
Some real good discussion on both sides but here's my take on at least part of the issues raised.
All this talk about "trust me" money aside, without posting a current bank statement on this forum we will all continue to speculate on how well capitalized BB really is. Putting aside whether the BB scheduling is a deliberate FU to the other established events or not, it just seems to me that in the scheme of things this is not in the best interests of the enterprise. If it was me I would definitely have scheduled around these events and used them as promotional opportunities to get the word out about BB. I'd strongly encourage the players to attend these events, even paying their entry fees and supplying them with polo shirts with the BB logo (as well as their other sponsors) prominently displayed. I'd further support these other events by buying booth space at every single one to set up a table to give demonstrations of the new game and generate some interest.
But they chose not to take advantage of these opportunities to promote the venture. So it seems about the only people that even know about it are posting in this thread, and the reaction is obviously not 100% positive.
The fact that BB took the other route could hint that the money is already getting tight so damn the torpedoes they need to plod ahead with this thing before the well runs dry. Or perhaps part of the strategy in addition to stepping on the scheduling toes of the the US Opens, is to separate some of the league players from the herd since they are conveniently already in Las Vegas, to fill seats in the BB arena. If the case, I don't know who may have suggested this idea but if I were in the small council chamber at the time I would have said to forget it. CSI realizes that to get any of these members to attend a pro event that historically has taken place not more than two doors down the hall from where the herd was grazing they needed to offer them free admission.
All this under a depressed climate for the economy of pool. So, what with the construction delays that cost the start of BB months (wasn't it originally billed as a one week delay?), it just seems to me the real relevant analogy is that BB is like a new player trying to run out but looking at a difficult table layout with all kinds of clusters and problem balls, and is hooked on the 2 ball facing a three rail kick.
I hope everything works out for everyone involved. I see valid points on both sides, and just want whatever works for all people involved, but somebody is not going to get what they want, that is for sure.
My only observation on BB is that it is a new game using new equipment. What they do have is teams, cities (although not really), and star power. That builds rooting interests that aren't necessarily there in singles tournaments. Yes, I know golf, tennis, etc are singles events.
But think about the most exciting event in pool over the past few years. The Mosconi Cup gets people cheering for their country. So BB can get people to like a certain team because of player or city affiliation, but in my mind, that would have worked better with an already popular game of 8 ball or 9 ball.
It could then grow into actual seasons in the actual cities where people may actually pay to attend the same way they attend a baseball, football, or basketball game.
IMO, ESPN missed the mark by not immediately working with those involved in Europe to rebroadcast the Mosconi Cup as exciting as it was. And they always have missed the mark with advertising on pool matches. To all the marketing idiots at ESPN or major companies. Pool players buy common goods, not just pooldawg products. We buy beer, soft drinks, medicines, hell, even Viagra! But all you see during the limited televised pool matches is pool merchandise.
I'd love to look forward 5-10 years and see a BB type of venture working as actual leagues in cities. Even having A, AA, and AAA feeder leagues as well to continue to grow the sport.
But that's about as likely as me living to see my Chicago Cubs win a world series!
My only observation on BB is that it is a new game using new equipment. What they do have is teams, cities (although not really), and star power. That builds rooting interests that aren't necessarily there in singles tournaments. Yes, I know golf, tennis, etc are singles events.
But think about the most exciting event in pool over the past few years. The Mosconi Cup gets people cheering for their country. So BB can get people to like a certain team because of player or city affiliation, but in my mind, that would have worked better with an already popular game of 8 ball or 9 ball.
It could then grow into actual seasons in the actual cities where people may actually pay to attend the same way they attend a baseball, football, or basketball game.
IMO, ESPN missed the mark by not immediately working with those involved in Europe to rebroadcast the Mosconi Cup as exciting as it was. And they always have missed the mark with advertising on pool matches. To all the marketing idiots at ESPN or major companies. Pool players buy common goods, not just pooldawg products. We buy beer, soft drinks, medicines, hell, even Viagra! But all you see during the limited televised pool matches is pool merchandise.
I'd love to look forward 5-10 years and see a BB type of venture working as actual leagues in cities. Even having A, AA, and AAA feeder leagues as well to continue to grow the sport.
But that's about as likely as me living to see my Chicago Cubs win a world series!