Pro pool player's vs transgender athlete's

Welder84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So what is the difference between pro player's dominating amateur (State/regional tournaments) and trans men crushing women's sports? Curious...
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DieselPete

Active member
So no. If a player (example) qualified once a year by having above 725 Fargo they would be a pro (one calendar year)
Great.

I think some responses would be that players would try to stay just below 725 (sandbag) so they can play as many events as possible (amateurs and opens), but if we learn from the world of golf, the opposite might be true. Golfers need a certain handicap to play in U.S. Open qualifiers. A few years back the USGA lowered the handicap to decrease the number of players who would qualify. The opposite happened. The number of low handicappers went UP! It seemed that if people wanted to play in the U.S. Open qualifying they would gin down their handicap a little more as opposed to being left out. I think that players who are close to 725 would fight to get over that mark to proudly wear the label of "pro."

(But I could be wrong!)
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Oh, but it is.

So was there a skill limit? I would think the ones that determine who can play are the people running the tournament. If they let high skill levels play and people from outside the area then those are the rules for that tournament.

I don't think I have seen a "state" championship be actually limited to players only from that state. My son and I played in the NJ state events a few times no-one ever checked our IDs and I know that the person running it knew we were not from the state. I do agree that a "state" championship should be limited to the residents of that state and an "Amateur State Championship" should be open to those under a certain skill level from that state. Any other event should be just called The X State Open or something.

Until they set those up as the rules though, if it's a State Championship but there are no restrictions, no foul if anyone plays in it.

This is from the Tour that ran that event, and they specify that professionals are not barred from playing.


  1. Are Action Pool Tour matches handicapped? No. We firmly believe that handicapping matches does not advance the game. Allowing someone to win a match that they could not win evenly is ultimately not in the best interest of the winner or the loser. We believe that lower-skilled players genuinely want to test their ability against better players and increase their own abilities over time. We firmly believe that the person who plays the best in a given match should win. However, we also recognize that the highly-skilled players (particularly professionals) have a much better chance of winning an event. Therefore, they are required to "have more skin in the game" by paying a significantly higher entry fee."
 
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jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Oh, but it is.
Show me. I went to the Action Pool Tour web site and could find NO reference to the tournament, nor any of their tournaments, being amateur. Further, I found no eligibility requirement whatsoever regarding amateur versus professional status.
 

briankenobi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To comment on the OP, there is a similarity in a pro playing in an event with no or not many pros and a trans woman playing in a womans sport. Both already have an advantage over the field. Unless there are rules for such players to not play, then they will continue to have an advantage and continue to dominate lesser fields.
 

Welder84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Show me. I went to the Action Pool Tour web site and could find NO reference to the tournament, nor any of their tournaments, being amateur. Further, I found no eligibility requirement whatsoever regarding amateur versus professional status.

To comment on the OP, there is a similarity in a pro playing in an event with no or not many pros and a trans woman playing in a womans sport. Both already have an advantage over the field. Unless there are rules for such players to not play, then they will continue to have an advantage and continue to dominate lesser fields.
That is the truth! Plain and simple.
 

Welder84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is the truth! Plain and simple.

Show me. I went to the Action Pool Tour web site and could find NO reference to the tournament, nor any of their tournaments, being amateur. Further, I found no eligibility requirement whatsoever regarding amateur versus professional status.
And you will soon see
There is 0 entitlement to a win.

We earn them and it is war.

The OP conflates two wildly different issues, I'll assume in an attempt to be provocative. There is probably a more suitable forum for the debate about trans rights/trans participation in sports.

As for the pool-related question; I believe this event was an "open" and therefore it was appropriate for a professional player to enter.*

Perhaps a post that suggests what rules should be in place to guide which events pro players should and should not enter would be a place to start a debate? Such as, they can enter "opens" but they cannot enter "amateurs"? But that also begs the question; when has a player officially crossed a line that definitively, irrefutably makes them a card-carry professional who would not be eligible for the non-pro events?

*Edit: I could be wrong here. There was an Open event running concurrent to the event in question. I'd like to read any materials that were published before the event to get a sense of the intent, and I would like to know how many players were in-state/out-of-state, and whether there were other professional players.
I actually just like to discuss the parallels between the two. Not trying to hurt anyone's feelings.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
To comment on the OP, there is a similarity in a pro playing in an event with no or not many pros and a trans woman playing in a womans sport. Both already have an advantage over the field. Unless there are rules for such players to not play, then they will continue to have an advantage and continue to dominate lesser fields.

There is a difference, a pro is there by skill only, a man playing as a woman in many sports has a physical advantage in addition to skill. A man playing chess or Monopoly in a women's tournament has no advantage outside of skill, and there is little advantage of one in pool.

Any woman can train and have the potential to be as good as a pro woman pool player, but a female baskeball player, even those with a lot of male attributes, will not be able to handle a male baskeball player even if that male baskeball player likes to put ribbons in their hair and wear heels, especially at the lower levels of skill.
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That is the truth! Plain and simple.
No, it's not! You can't just decide that a tournament is restricted to amateurs on your own, in your own mind, and then disparage the winners and the tournament organizers when the results don't match your notions.

Whether a tournament is for amateurs is provable. So,put up or shut up!
 

briankenobi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is a difference, a pro is there by skill only, a man playing as a woman in many sports has a physical advantage in addition to skill. A man playing chess or Monopoly in a women's tournament has no advantage outside of skill, and there is little advantage of one in pool.

Any woman can train and have the potential to be as good as a pro woman pool player, but a female baskeball player, even those with a lot of male attributes, will not be able to handle a male baskeball player even if that male baskeball player likes to put ribbons in their hair and wear heels, especially at the lower levels of skill.

Yeah there is a difference on why they are better. However the OP is correct in the comparison. In both examples, you have a player(s) having a decided advantage over the field, for whatever reason.
 

jviss

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The commonly accepted definition of "amateur" in sports is one who doesn't compete for remuneration. No money.

am·a·teur​

(ăm′ə-tûr′, -tər, -cho͝or′, -chər, -tyo͝or′)
n.
...
2. Sports An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition.

By this standard, anyone entering a tournament for which there is a cash prize, unless it falls within the restrictions specified by a regulatory body, forfeits their amateur status!

This was a money tournament.
 

couldnthinkof01

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Pro should be considered at least 750.
State tournaments usually always have at least a few "pro" players, think Texas.
Transgender in women's only events usually have rules like the (wpba?) or whatever the womans organization is called.
 
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Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The commonly accepted definition of "amateur" in sports is one who doesn't compete for remuneration. No money.

am·a·teur​

(ăm′ə-tûr′, -tər, -cho͝or′, -chər, -tyo͝or′)
n.
...
2. Sports An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition.

By this standard, anyone entering a tournament for which there is a cash prize, unless it falls within the restrictions specified by a regulatory body, forfeits their amateur status!

This was a money tournament.
That doesn't apply to many sports though.

Pool pays cash- as does bike racing- to folks who have 0 chance to compete against the top 10,000+ performers in the given sports.
 
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