Professional Pool League Anyone?

K

Keith Legros

Registered
I am wondering if the players/promoters/organizers ever thought to start a Professional 9 Ball Pool League.

The way I see this working is:

Minium 6 teams are needed to start the league

Each Team has an 8 player roster (5 Players, 3 Subs)

A Match vs another team would be a 50 game format with players playing each other twice (they each break once)

In Case of a tie, the winnng team must win by two games, so "overtime" may be nessacary.

O.K. Let's say that the 6 teams involved were , Philadelphia, New York, Orlando, Chicago, Las Vegas, and Dallas

Each city would have a "team owner"

Each owner would be responsible for coughing up say $25,000.00 to first own their team

This money would be used for league operations and a cash prize payout at the end of the season

This could be of intest to the UPA, MSB Promotions etc

6 Teams = $150,000.00

League operations = $75,000.00

Prize Payout = Winner $50,000.00 1st $25,000.00 2nd

Each owner would also be responisble for prviding a Host Venue, team unifroms, providing refreees, scorekeepers, etc.

At the start of the league a draft would take place whereby only the players that would be interested in playing sign up for
(any player is eligible, male, female, or from anywhere in the world)

Once a player list has been established the draft would comence

Each team would complete their roster from the players on the draft list

Then like any other professional team sport, negotiations to get that player to sign with you would have to take place.

Owners can put anything in their contracts with each player as long as the player agrees to play for them.

The owner would of course be responsible for each of players salaries etc.

A high end player may want $1,000.00 per match played where as a "bargin" player may settle for $200.00 per match played

The owner then "uses" this team to generate money

Examples of how an owner may make money.

- Find a venue in your city which will pay you to have your team play in it. (casino's may give you $2,000.00 (or more) per match just to have your team play there)

- Or , maybe you own a pool room and want to use this a promtional tool

- Charge admission to the matches (If you think it would be a struggle to get people to pay to watch a pool match, then "spice it" up with pre match entertainment, side shows, loud music or whatever it takes to get them through the door)

- Note 500 attending at $10.00 = $5,000

- Your team will have to have a uniform, hopefully you have it designed to be able to sell the appropiate amounts of pharaphialla
(Note: there is alot of "cheesheads" sold because of the NFL Packers)

- 50 - 50 draws at each match (or prize draws etc)

- Game day programs (great way to also sell advertising)

- Selling player autogragh items, pictures etc.

- Chase sponsors for your team (maybe your team plays on a certain table, uses a certian type of cue/chalk, ball polisher etc.)

Personally I think a good owner can generate more money than they invest in team operations.


This is just the start

Keith Legros
 
Keith

About 10 years ago, Don Mackey and bob meucci tried doing this, and the plan was to have teams play in much the same format as World Team Billiards. The players were to be on teams in a set number of cities, and the players were to be salaried, much like other professional team sport athletes. Well, it never got off the ground for one reason or another, probably because there was no way to accurately schedule, finance, or project income for such an endeavor.

The problem is with the prosepctive spectator. If you try this with a team in the Dallas, Texas area, for example, you would need to schedule the matches around different league nights and tournament nights to effectively get as many spectators as you could. As a professional player, I can assure you that you would never fill any match with 500 spectators. This will drive up the ticket price. Player egos become involved (I would certainly not like being referred to as a "bargain player"), and the high end players would want to more than just "compensated" for their appearance.

The logistsics for such an endeavor is a nightmare, and the original idea was scrapped quickly, mainly because they were unable to get many potential sponsors to take the endeavor seriously. This why:

A) Pool fanatics are fickle in their approach. Many are not willing to spend a dime out of their pocket to promote the game of pool. This is not easy to look at, but more are trying to "get from" rather than "Giving to" the game of pool. Though this is not easy to look at, it is a fact, and it is the main reason the sport exists at a level lower than Curling, sad but true, no offense meant towards all our diehard Curling fans.

B) Pool players are mostly individualistic. That is the nature of the professional game. Sure, comradery exists in leagues all over the world, but many professionals are not very comfortable in that type of atmosphere.

C) Sponsorship would also be a problem. What if , accordng to your system, Earl Strickland was drafted by the Falcon Cues Team? He is sponsored by Cuetec. Who would go through the legal hassles to have the two sponsoring entities come to a legal and agreeable decison to allow Earl to have the "Falcon" logo attached to his team shirt? The legalities of this send your legal budget through the roof, and cause you to ask yourself if it is really worth the trouble.

D) Scheduling, as I pointed out earlier would be a nightmare. Along with the task of attracting a fan base, you must also contend with tournaments, tours, and other things that will keep the players from attending/participating in these events.

There are also other issues, like gambling, synonymous with our image as a sport, which is a main stumbling block that keeps many potential big name sponsors from touching our sport with a ten foot pole. That would also be the reason that many possible venue locales will turn away such an idea.

But, there is a way to do this. Start out small, and branch out. I would compare it to dropping a pebble in a pond, and rippling outwards. Do some research to find out what the best test market woud be. That would be a professional approach, as opposed to the greed driven approach. Prove that your idea worked on the state level, that way you can branch out regionally. When it works regionally, then, and only then, will you be able to test it in the national market. These are the things that potential sponsors for this endeavor will be looking at. Develop a fan base locally and prove to yourself and others that it would work. I believe that the original deal failed because they wanted to jump out nationally (BIG) right out of the gate, with nothing to base the numbers on. Plant a seed, let it grow into a plant, allow the plant to become a seed, and sooner or later you will have a tree that will bear fruit. It will take a little time, but if you put enough effort into the dream, it can and will be realized. Just stay away from the shortcuts and mistakes others have made before you.

Good Luck
 
Last edited:
Now this is something that should be looked into! The sport of Billiards definitaly needs a boost in the marketing and broadcasting side of the house.

...Zim
 
It'll never happen because, as sad as it may sound, the players are their worst enemy. Players might now show up and the integrity of the contests will be suspect. There'll be savers all over. Players are broke so they'd opt for savers.
Sadly Don Mackey killed the pro tour. They should have signed with ESPN back in mid-90's. The players should just get together and form an association and vote for a president. Then sign with ESPN .
 
The main reason it won't work is that there is no arena suitable to showcase the players. When you can only seat 20 to 30 people you are not going to make any money on the gate. CW is putting on the Patriot Cup in a couple weeks and that pretty much is the team concept that you are talking about. It was a good show last year and this year will probably be better but I think CW is overdoing it when he goes for two days. I just hope he didn't scare the fans away by almost doubling the admission price. Anyway if you want fan participation then you have to supply a product that the fans will pay to see. And it has to be over in a reasonable amount of time. Like four hours max. Since I can't see how this can be accomplished in pool I suspect that things will just remain the same. But maybe if they did have two five man teams and the winner stays at the table until he loses or wins 5 games and they keep playing until one team wins a set number of games. LIke 50 or 75 or whatever. At least that way the fans will get to see all the players playing each other several times. Jake~~~but not holding my breath for things to change in my lifetime
 
Sadly Don Mackey killed the pro tour. They should have signed with ESPN back in mid-90's.
Click to expand...


Actually, it's kind of hard to keep a TV contract when your main sponsor is a tobacco company, given governmental restriction for the advertisement of their products. An argument can be made with WInston Cup, but let's remember how the used Joe Camel to promote the sport of pocket billiards. Stupid move, and believe it or not, the players agreed to it all, blinded by dollar signs, which eliminated good sense.
 
Blackjack : Thank you for the kind response

I am going to try to address certain issue's which you brought up WITHOUT trying to offend you..........it's just the way I see it

A.) 10 years ago..........was a long time. Many new league's , league players now understand what a league is.

Ten years ago you had to explain to almost every amateur what a "ball in hand" was.

B.) Accuratly Schedule: I would see a schedule run during "pool season" somewhere between October & March. If a player had other commitments and or choose to play in tournaments rather than the league then that is either in their contract or thier choice.

C.) Financed: As I mentioned a fee for owning a franchise would have to be in place. I t could be $25,000.00 , it could be more.
Let's say 5 people wanted to "own" a team. That's $5,000.00 a piece to "own" a sports team. I know a local "Nightclub" that opened for $125,000.00 and had 25 owners at $5,000.00 per share. One owner was a lawyer, one a maintence guy, one owned a carpet company , one was a carpenter, one was an N.H.L. hockey player, one was a police officer etc. My point is they opened and found all the "right" investors to make it work with as little start up cost a s possible. The Nightclub generates approximately $2,000,000.00 gross sales annually

D.) Project an income for such an endeavor: Got me there, however I have a "friend" who is the General Manger of a Senior hockey team in Canada. He is the Entire fundraiser for the team, he sells ads for his game program, runs his game day draws (50- 50) hires people to collect admission, hire's a D.J. or entrertainment, rents a hall and collects on the profits, sells everything and anything he can to raise money for the team. After team travel expenses , equipment cost, uniform maintence, etc, etc. the guy takes home at the end of the year $70,000.00 +. This is a FULL time job.

E.) You would never fill a match with 500 spectators: Marketing, Marketing and more marketing...........example....Let's say your top player on your team was not drawing the fans but you had available to you a "marketing" player who would go out of his or her way to "entice" fans to come to watch the match.........who would you play?........example......."thunderously" loud music for player into's, team uniform's, cheerleader shows..........whatever it takes. Make it so that your "waking up the pool world"

F) A high end player would want to be more than "compensated' for their appearance: A player would have to prove their worth. From what I have seen from most 9 ball tournaments $1,000.00 or that area gets you 5th to 8th and by no means gaurenteed.

G) Pool fanatics are fickle in their approach etc.......: Time for some new fans.............seems no matter where a tournament is held (in north america) the attendence figure is always around 100 to 120. Course there are many reason's for this as well...........example...........an owner will spend money on "hall'o'ween" decorations, give out prizes for best costume etc........but they have a "big" tournament and you see nothing. Lucky even to have an appropiate sized grid.

H) Pool players are mostly individualistic: So are golf players, but the Ryder cup is the biggest draw. Again though, in selecting players to form a "team" you would be wise to select players that
fit your idea of what a team should be. The New Jersey Devils believe that the best formation for there team is defensive style players.............their are no superstars on that team but the team is a superstar team. Same as the way that New England won the Superbowl, etc

I) What if Earl was drafted by team falcon cues but was sponsored by Cutec. Earl can only abide by one contract at a time...........I suppose if it was worth a "buy out" for team falcon to aquire Earl player then maybe they could go that route.
But, as in any professional draft........teams contact the players that they may want draft Prior to the draft. During dicussion's players are asked if they would in fact play for the team if drafted, should there be any majr conflicts a team may choose to trade that draft pick or pick someone that they know will play for them. This is part of "scouting" before the draft. ..........Example ..........you have first pick overall and you want to pick Earl .........your team is sponsored by Falcon and you know Earl has a Contract with Cutec. You also know that Earl will not coe cheap..........should you waste your pick on Earl or trade or pick another player?

J) And finally for now........Start out small: Totally agree 100%
An area where 6 cities/towns........are close together may be the best place to start

Now i wrote this not to offend anyone.............especially Blackjack

This is only the start

Keith Legros
 
the issue of money has been the major problem with pool.

and have you seen pics of the florida tourny? is this the kind of place the matches will be held at? we all know the situation pool finds itself in, but those pics were kind of a shock to me. the outside looks like a nondescript paint store in a strip mall. and it had some of the best players in the country in attendance.

there'd be a massive undertaking to go from that to what you're suggesting.
 
Bruin: My idea would be for the host team to have an appropiate home venue with suitable seating and lighting etc.............perferably in a banquet hall setting.

By the way if that is where they are holding the Florida tourney and that is what it looks like then it's just another example of why they don't get more spectators. I see nothing in those pics that is "spectator friendly"

Keith Legros
 
Keith, Pool halls are designed for people who want to play pool. Not for people who want to watch pool. And even when the top players were in Orlando there were some people who were more interested in playing cards than watching them play.
 
To Joesph Cues: Players might not show up and the integrity of the contests will be suspect: This is all about "scouting" a player prior to signing them to your team. Any player that you "suspect" will not abide by your team policies should have not been signed in the first place. Of course a measure to prevent this would again be in a contract which would state that a player must be attendance 24 hours prior to the match.

There are alot of variables that need to be put into place.........especially in a contract..........however I believe that not ALL pool players are not responsible.

Again..............finding all the "RIGHT" ingredients to form a team team is no less work than finding all the "RIGHT" ingredients to form and N.B.A. team.

It will not be easy, but a good owner will have signed the right players, have the best available marketing people, have the best available venue, have the right uniform, have the right team nickname, have the best available sponsors and have the best available promotions, to make the most money.

Anything less is NEVER to be expected from an owner!

This is just the start

Keith Legros
 
jjinfla said:
Keith, Pool halls are designed for people who want to play pool. Not for people who want to watch pool. And even when the top players were in Orlando there were some people who were more interested in playing cards than watching them play.
Click to expand...

good thought! i never heard that one, and you're absolutely right.

now, the logistics of turning pool into a high dollar game is bigger than i thought. it makes the whole task even more insurmountable.
 
off hand, i'd say a businessman looking into this would think pool is a bad risk. there is nothing pool has to offer, by any criteria i can think of, that would make someone risk that much money. let alone several of such men.

the game would literally have to be built from the ground up because there is nothing to build on. no venues, no organization of players, no tv, no audience...............and no money to initiate all of this.
 
It seems to me that there are a lot of Billiard fans and players all over the United States that want something more for our sport of Cueing, something to give us that edge and notablility that the sport deserves. All this talk and no action! If you just search thru all of the threads that are posted on AZBilliards alone, you could find players willing to play and not for thousands of dollars, but because they love to play, you'll find plenty of businesses that might be interested in sharing their experiences and possibly invest in a league like that. You don't necessarily have to have one person/business put up all the cash, but maybe several people/businesses! I think this is something to seriously think about and talk to some of the "upcoming" pros. The Earls, Ephrens, and Johnny's of the sport are going to cost the "owners" to much money possibly, why not shoot for the above average players who, if given the opportunity, could play at the Pro level!!!

...Zim
 
I agree with Zim's Rack, i was reading through these posts and was gonna type exactly what he did. You don't need big name Pro's, they want top dollar right off the bat! When you got no money you gotta start with players that got no money. I am sure there are tonnes of players out there that can consistently break and run racks over and over and over again that aren't getting paid to do so. You don't necessarily need a draft either, maybe later on if it got big you could have a draft, but for now start with tryouts. Just like minor league hockey teams. Find players that don't have cue sponsors already, players that are working regular jobs. I'm sure that if someone offered me an income of a few thousand dollars a month to play the game I love I would do it!! You don't have to quit your day job!! It all seems like a great idea and i wish someone with money had the balls to invest but i don't actually think that it would ever get off the ground.
 
Wrong there Fxskater. Pick a sport, any sport, people follow it because of the name players. No name players, no one would be there. Unless you want to charge a dollar admission. LOL. do you think anyone would pay admission last week in Orlando if the top pros weren't there? Jake
 
fx,,,,that's would be nice, and very idealistic, and it would be great to show up these old pros who have hindered the game with their selfish arrogance.

but i would not pay to see the #'s 30-100 players, if you could even get them. the savvy pool spectator would not. so if you're going to feature those caliber players, then you would have to cull a less discriminating audience. i'm afraid an audience that fits THAT profile don't watch pool....that's the audience that joins leagues but only the name "black widow".
 
I think that this LEAGUE is an awesome idea. jjinfla- think about this...a "no name" player might only be a "no name" player because he does NOT play on the Pro tours. Maybe he has what it takes but doesn't have what it takes financially to get the opportunity to prove himself. I think that this LEAGUE should NOT allow anyone on the PRO CIRCUIT to join on a team, however, one could be a non-playing Captain. Think about that...Michael Jordan brought a lot to Washington when he became a coach. What if Mike Segal, Mike Massey, Nick Varner, etc became a non-playing coach. Yes, the coach would also get a salary, but just as equal or not to exceed his top paid player. Now, would you like to see Nick Varners team compete against Mike Segals? Just something to think about. And then on top of that you could have fast larry be a sponsor (I'm not volunteering his business though, just an example) and perform throughout the season at each Team location, charging a spectators fee and then donating a % to the Team as a fund raiser. Blud could make a League Cue in a limited amount. I think this would get some of the bigger companies, Coca-Cola, Budweiser, Hilton, Holiday Inn, etc to sponsor because it's going to effect there City. There are plenty of ways for a team to come up with the finances.
The game of billiards is not growing at all at the pace it should be. Take a look at not what we ARE doing to boost Billiards, but at what we are NOT doing to boost Billiards!! We don't need more money per say, but more players that can be recognized, we need something to excite the fans, draw them to the matches, tournaments, and exhibitions, some kind of niche that will suddenly jump out at the public and say..."they do this at pool tournaments" or "Wow, pool players do_____!" Something like that, you get the picture! I think it's time for the "Next Generation" of Billiards to step up and speak their mind about our sport. We have tons of younger players both men and women that could, should and would speak to younger players, beginner players, people that don't even play unless they are waiting for their cheeseburger to cook at their favorite bar. Just go to a bar with a pool table and a decent size crowd, but not a pool hall. Now watch how many people are playing pool, having a beer and have NO CLUE HOW TO PLAY, but they'll spend the quarters to play and drink the beer. EVERYONE plays pool, EVERYONE! Some just have no clue what they are doing or what the sport is about. That my friends is our TARGET PLAYERS!! Those players that sit and play and don't know anything are the reason we (Billiards industry) doesn't grow!
LET'S DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!
I don't like to hear all the negativity towards the idea that Keith Legros has come up with or brought to our attention! It was mentioned that this was attempted in the past, well my friends that past is HISTORY!!! Let's all brainstorm and come up with idea! We need Pro players of all kind who love the game and not the money to get involved in this and push for it. They can talk to their sponsor and get them involved.
We should be helping our sport, not hindering it!

...Zim
 
Zim, There is a pretty good Amatuer tournament in Florida - Kingsbay. That has now split into two tournaments - south and north. No pros allowed. However I doubt that they have devised a way to generate revenue. Other than charging the players to participate, and getting pool hall owners to donate their premesis.

The Predator in Orlando had 56 players who had to pay $180 (I believe) to play. That's $10,080 total for prize money. 1st got $3K; 2nd $1700; 13-16 got $200. That means that 39 players received nothing for four days work. The ones who finished 13-16 netted a whopping $20 for their four days work. Pool players have to love the game because there sure is not any money in it for them. A company like Predator does not sponsor a pool pro just for the fun of it. It is an investment and they expect a return on their investment. Charlie is now sponsored by predator becaue they believe that he will be good for them. Unfortunately Charlie must have been too good for them because now there is a backlog on their shafts and cues.

I really don't see anything evolving in men's pool in the near future. In the meantime I will enjoy watching the pros whenever I can. I Will be in Tampa next Saturday for the Patriot Cup.

Jake
 
jjinfla- I know what you mean, I'm out of stock of 314 shafts and am waiting a few more weeks to receive a shipment! Thanks for the info on the FL tournaments! But this is what I was talking about, people are giving up before anything has a chance to grow or even get planted! I apologize, but I wasn't directing it towards you, just in general. It just happens that you were the first one to make another negative comment. I don't know who you are or what your role in Billiards is. It will be interesting to see what this thread will contain.

...Zim
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top