Recent Simonis 860 install by a table mechanic........Really?

Agit8er

New member
Just FYI, if you did not ask specifically for that type of pocket finish, you got what 99% of others get. Most local "installers" do not take the extra time to trim out the pocket all nice and clean. So in essence: you know now. The reality is this: the contract was to recover the pool table and because you did not specify anything in the contract about fine details, so you got the quality that they put out consistently. I am on your side and feel this is wrong, but, it is actually both parties that are. You ASSUMED they were going to do "x" and "y" , but, there is nothing defining the expectations of the work on the contract/ invoice. So, if you went to court, you would have a VERY hard time proving what your expectations were and that is because you never made them put it in the contract. Beating up on that company on here, yelp and all those other places actually could get you in trouble if you do not have a way to PROVE you are telling the truth, IE a contract or invoice stating the details of the work to be performed.

Sorry you went for a ride, buy the simonis dvds, learn from all of us here and you have no more issue: MAKE LEMONS INTO LEMONADE.

TFT

P.s. my finest pocket work, GC5.
Thank you for the thoughtful insight to my issues. You make great points as to not being specific on the contract as to how the pockets were to be dressed. I shot on a pool league for twenty years and never saw the more detailed pockets like your nice example. So without that exposure I never had it in my mind to have to request any specific type of pocket work. Nor did he even explain if any other options where available.

The four corner pockets are fine. The cloth was pulled down and only the very smallest tips of the cuts can be felt. So they really did know that the look mattered. They apparently lacked the skill and training of how to deal with the side pockets. Some have mentioned that what I showed in the pictures is the norm and those results are even shown in installation videos. That very well may be the case as I am not a table mechanic. This is why I am here. I am learning a lot, for sure. I am willing to bet that the videos do not show those cuts to be acceptable within 3/8" of the playing surface. Just a hunch!

Is there an approved method of reinstalling the rails? Measuring, using an angle, possibly a straight edge? This crew "eyed" it up. Thus, the result is shown in one of my pictures.

I never had any intention of beating up the company involved nor legal matters. My real goal here is to gather information so I can have a respectful and informed dialogue with the manager of the company. Actually, I am all about training and skill development. How about the company buys the DVD and watches it with the mechanic. They both come back with the video, new cloth and redo the mess.
Everybody wins and the installer is better for it. I get to feel better about my table, the local business profits and the next customer receives quality work.

Thanks again for your guidance
 

trentfromtoledo

8onthebreaktoledo
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thank you for the thoughtful insight to my issues. You make great points as to not being specific on the contract as to how the pockets were to be dressed. I shot on a pool league for twenty years and never saw the more detailed pockets like your nice example. So without that exposure I never had it in my mind to have to request any specific type of pocket work. Nor did he even explain if any other options where available.

The four corner pockets are fine. The cloth was pulled down and only the very smallest tips of the cuts can be felt. So they really did know that the look mattered. They apparently lacked the skill and training of how to deal with the side pockets. Some have mentioned that what I showed in the pictures is the norm and those results are even shown in installation videos. That very well may be the case as I am not a table mechanic. This is why I am here. I am learning a lot, for sure. I am willing to bet that the videos do not show those cuts to be acceptable within 3/8" of the playing surface. Just a hunch!

Is there an approved method of reinstalling the rails? Measuring, using an angle, possibly a straight edge? This crew "eyed" it up. Thus, the result is shown in one of my pictures.

I never had any intention of beating up the company involved nor legal matters. My real goal here is to gather information so I can have a respectful and informed dialogue with the manager of the company. Actually, I am all about training and skill development. How about the company buys the DVD and watches it with the mechanic. They both come back with the video, new cloth and redo the mess.
Everybody wins and the installer is better for it. I get to feel better about my table, the local business profits and the next customer receives quality work.

Thanks again for your guidance
You are very welcome. I appreciate your response and look forward to seeing you handle this EXACTLY how you said here. I think you could certainly HELP that company and also solidify a working relationship with them for the future. Sounds like a WIN WIN for all. I like your style. Keep us posted?

TFT
 

GoldCrown

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
My pictures. I had a GC 4 recovered in 2010 by Bob DeTurk. His style is the band or collar by default. That was first time I saw or learned about it. So like everything else no mistakes were made here. Just another learning experience.
 

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Agit8er

New member
My pictures. I had a GC 4 recovered in 2010 by Bob DeTurk. His style is the band or collar by default. That was first time I saw or learned about it. So like everything else no mistakes were made here. Just another learning experience.
Thank you for including the additional pics. Looks really good. What is sad is I only really expected to have the cloth pulled down completely and stapled underneath. That is how the original table was done. that is how all 8-10 tables in the showroom was done. Done by the same mechanics. (Confirmed that yesterday). I now know about the more advanced techniques thanks to this forum. I did not expect that. I just think if you remove an original cloth, you would reinstall the new cloth at least the same way. Again, the four corner pockets are nearly perfect with the cuts wrapped under the table. The person I purchased the service from or even the mechanic at my house could have discussed there are different ways the pockets can be done. Sometimes its not about the price. It is in this case a situation where I would have had an oppurtunity to decide. The saga continues......
 

GoldCrown

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thank you for including the additional pics. Looks really good. What is sad is I only really expected to have the cloth pulled down completely and stapled underneath. That is how the original table was done. that is how all 8-10 tables in the showroom was done. Done by the same mechanics. (Confirmed that yesterday). I now know about the more advanced techniques thanks to this forum. I did not expect that. I just think if you remove an original cloth, you would reinstall the new cloth at least the same way. Again, the four corner pockets are nearly perfect with the cuts wrapped under the table. The person I purchased the service from or even the mechanic at my house could have discussed there are different ways the pockets can be done. Sometimes its not about the price. It is in this case a situation where I would have had an oppurtunity to decide. The saga continues......
They dumped you on this job. Real crap. To repeat ... next time you’ll know what look and ask for. Mainly reputation of installer. I was buying a table out of state... it was being shipped to an installer nobody heard of. I passed.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
Thanks for the remarks. I certainly have an uphill battle. I'm a professional installer in another field so I am pretty good at relating to and working thru issues with contractors and customers. Wish me luck.

Between the Simonis instructions and the boards here you should do just fine if you are at all handy.
 

Agit8er

New member
Thanks to all who have responded with the thoughtful remarks and guidance on my install issue.

The pocket issues have been resolved and I am happy with the results. I am even more thrilled on how the company approached the situation once I reported my dissatisfaction to the manager. He assured me that he would have the owner reach out.

The owner responded by email on a Sunday no less. His remarks to my concerns were thorough and professional. He immediately offered to make the changes requested all while making sure the return date would fit my busy schedule! On more than one occasion he stated how customer satisfaction was important to him.

To my surprise, the owner accompanied the original mechanic on the morning of the repair. The owner, as it turns out, is a well known mechanic from back when I shot in a local league. He quickly examined the table and basically held a class for the mechanic. The table really looks great now and we all have had a learning experience to share.

I told the owner that I will continue to support his business mostly because how he personally handled the case. He made me feel like I was the most important person in the room. That's how customer service should be...always!
 

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GoldCrown

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks to all who have responded with the thoughtful remarks and guidance on my install issue.

The pocket issues have been resolved and I am happy with the results. I am even more thrilled on how the company approached the situation once I reported my dissatisfaction to the manager. He assured me that he would have the owner reach out.

The owner responded by email on a Sunday no less. His remarks to my concerns were thorough and professional. He immediately offered to make the changes requested all while making sure the return date would fit my busy schedule! On more than one occasion he stated how customer satisfaction was important to him.

To my surprise, the owner accompanied the original mechanic on the morning of the repair. The owner, as it turns out, is a well known mechanic from back when I shot in a local league. He quickly examined the table and basically held a class for the mechanic. The table really looks great now and we all have had a learning experience to share.

I told the owner that I will continue to support his business mostly because how he personally handled the case. He made me feel like I was the most important person in the room. That's how customer service should be...always!
Resolution is a great thing....so is doing it right the first time. You did not need the the aggravation or inconvenience of having people back but it's nice when issues get worked out.
 

muskyed

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
While not the greatest install originally, it's always a good practice to try and work out a resolution with a business first, before bashing them on the internet if you have concerns. I have found that most successful businesses want a satisfied customer, and have enough pride in their work that if it is lacking, will take steps to correct it, as you have just found out. I think you went about it in a professional way, and ended up with a good outcome.
 
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jfred0826

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All tables with wooden slate liners have the V cuts in the cloth at the pockets. The purpose of the "shirt collar trim" at the pockets is to cover the part of the V that is visible. If you find someone that knows how to make the shirt collar trim, he will be able to make your pockets look right. It may require popping a few staples around the pockets and a little stretch at those points, but you should end up with no V cuts showing.
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Gold Member
Silver Member
All tables with wooden slate liners have the V cuts in the cloth at the pockets. The purpose of the "shirt collar trim" at the pockets is to cover the part of the V that is visible. If you find someone that knows how to make the shirt collar trim, he will be able to make your pockets look right. It may require popping a few staples around the pockets and a little stretch at those points, but you should end up with no V cuts showing.
Not all... It just depends on the cloth being used, and how it is stretched. Though, the added cuffs make it a lot easier to get a clean look.
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Lawnboy77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Looks great guys! I didn’t request the extra ribbon and fold to hide the V cuts, so they didn’t do it during the last cloth install. I was wondering if I can remove the pockets on my Anniversary and pull the V tabs down and do the ribbon fold now? If so, what is that plastic ribbon material, and where can I find it?


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Lawnboy77

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
All tables with wooden slate liners have the V cuts in the cloth at the pockets. The purpose of the "shirt collar trim" at the pockets is to cover the part of the V that is visible. If you find someone that knows how to make the shirt collar trim, he will be able to make your pockets look right. It may require popping a few staples around the pockets and a little stretch at those points, but you should end up with no V cuts showing.

I guess I should of read your post a bit better before asking questions. You answered my questions. Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Gold Member
Silver Member
Looks great guys! I didn’t request the extra ribbon and fold to hide the V cuts, so they didn’t do it during the last cloth install. I was wondering if I can remove the pockets on my Anniversary and pull the V tabs down and do the ribbon fold now? If so, what is that plastic ribbon material, and where can I find it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
'Plastic pipe hanger' or 'plumbing strapping'
 

ThinSlice

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I always fold at the side pocket. However, I ensure that the underlying layers are as close to the top of the fold as possible, and the fold is pulled very tight.

Well, those are probably the nicest looking side pocket folds I have ever seen. Do you have a front view?


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bradsh98

Bradshaw Billiard Service
Gold Member
Silver Member
Well, those are probably the nicest looking side pocket folds I have ever seen. Do you have a front view?


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Thank you.
Unfortunately, you just made me realize that I don't typically take photos of the front view. I'll have to start doing that.

If you are interested, you may see more photos of my work here.
 

Tablemaker

Registered
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...any of you find issue with installing the inside liner of the pocket BETWEEN the slate and rail? Some of that leather can be 1/8"thick...putting unneeded stress on the rail, slate, and seam once all the rail bolts are torqued down. That's a big no-no in my book.
 
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jfred0826

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I guess I should of read your post a bit better before asking questions. You answered my questions. Thanks!


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I guess I should of read your post a bit better before asking questions. You answered my questions. Thanks!


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At first glance those side pocket cushions look like there is no fold. True?


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All tables with wooden slate liners have the V cuts in the cloth at the pockets. The purpose of the "shirt collar trim" at the pockets is to cover the part of the V that is visible. If you find someone that knows how to make the shirt collar trim, he will be able to make your pockets look right. It may require popping a few staples around the pockets and a little stretch at those points, but you should end up with no V cuts showing.
Nice work, Geoff. And I stand corrected. What I should have said is that I, using the technique in the Simonis videos and following the instruction I learned here, have never been able to install Simonis without v-cuts showing unless I use the shirt collar trim. My apologies for my poor choice of words.
 
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