Reconfiguring Your Game…Game Goes Down The Toilet?

[KillerWhalePool]

Hu's experience outlined above mirrors that of a few of my students and one AZBer who I havent seen around in many months....

they had a good game. yook yime off and came back but got lured in by THE fundamentals. So they tried futily to jam their natural round peg game into a square hole and had disastrous results. What I did with them....and in the case of the AZBer it was justa quick DM or two... is I got them yo lean into their natural way of playing and let them know how/why it works. with the confidence to not try to live up to someone else's ideal but instead let their natural stroke out, they all quickly returned to their old selves. I wish he wasaround to corroborate the story, but the AZBer sent me an update within a werk or two that he was playing some of his bestpool ever. All he needed was to trust his technique and not be lured into a completely different way of playing.

This is something a skilled instructor can do for you...provided u did indeed have a strong game before. A complete rebuild is a slow process. waking up a sleeping giant can happen in a hurry. Many will be able yo get there if they give their own style a real chance yo come back as Hu did. Im certain an instuctor can make that happen even faster as long as they arent the 'my way or it is wrong' type.

I don’t know that there are any verified instructors within a drivable distance of where I live. I’ll do more research. I can tell you in a nutshell what my main three problems are (even though I have made them work in the past, to an extent):

- Popping up on shots I’m not confident in, which are more than I care to admit;

- Focusing like a laser on the one, and then by the time I get halfway through the rack, start to lose focus, which regularly resulted in breaking down towards the end of the game, normally on position;

- Getting in a hurry and shooting much too fast, a la mimicry of a younger Earl Strickland, and moving even faster the better I’m playing, which doesn’t lend itself to consistency of any type.

On a regular basis, I could run 2-3 racks nonstop before I lost focus and fudged up, and when I was super-focused and the planets aligned and I held my mouth right, 4-5 racks. Mind you, this was a bigger-pocketed nine foot local room table years ago, and not of the Diamond soul-sucker hanger variety with extra deep shelves and 4.25 pockets.

So that’s what I have to work on.

 

[ShootingArts]

I’m in the process of overhauling my stroke. After 55 years of doing it poorly but getting away with it, I’m trying to fix my problems. Sometimes is see the improvement and then I get in a money game and all the bad habits return. Currently it’s very frustrating but I’ll keep plugging away with improvement.

Fortunately all of my bad habits don't return but one of the most annoying does! Buried that habit fifty years ago, or thought I did. Now I believe in zombies. When I reach way back with the grip hand, stupid is only a moment away unless I regrip!

Hu

 

[WobblyStroke]

I don’t know that there are any verified instructors within a drivable distance of where I live. I’ll do more research. I can tell you in a nutshell what my main three problems are (even though I have made them work in the past, to an extent):

- Popping up on shots I’m not confident in, which are more than I care to admit;

- Focusing like a laser on the one, and then by the time I get halfway through the rack, start to lose focus, which regularly resulted in breaking down towards the end of the game, normally on position;

- Getting in a hurry and shooting much too fast, a la mimicry of a younger Earl Strickland, and moving even faster the better I’m playing, which doesn’t lend itself to consistency of any type.

On a regular basis, I could run 2-3 racks nonstop before I lost focus and fudged up, and when I was super-focused and the planets aligned and I held my mouth right, 4-5 racks. Mind you, this was a bigger-pocketed nine foot local room table years ago, and not of the Diamond soul-sucker hanger variety with extra deep shelves and 4.25 pockets.

So that’s what I have to work on.

you are a very good player. or were. to be able to run 4-5racks in a row on any table requires a good amount of proficiency. I certainly wouldnt want to change that winning formula.

the issues u describe are very common.
issue 1 of popping up can have a variety of reasons...lack of trust being at the core of most of them. this takes some time hitting thise shots and getting comfortable. sometimes we just dont see the shot right and if we dont flunch or do something and just execute a good stroke wre just guarantee a miss. hit em. make sure u see it right. then freeze till u hear it drop. u must resist the urge to look and see how it turned out.

issue 2 is probably most common and isnt just a loss of focus but a compounding of little positional misses. if focus only, great. work on urmwntal game. messing with ur stroke and mechanics wont fix ur mental approach anyway.

issue 3 is a tough one yo break and i was guilty of it myself when young. a seasoned player fixed me with one suggestion.. a reverse shot clock. simply, u are not allowed yo shoot a shot for 20seconds after ur last one. visualize. walk around. double check angles. use the time. but u cannot shoot till 20 seconds are up. u can even go to 30+ secinds in practice to get used to going at a slower pace.

Im curious what vonvinced u to fiddle with such a strong game and fiddle with ur technique when technique isnt at the heart of ur 3 main issues to begin with and most instructors dont play to that gear u described. have faith in what allowed u to play like that and stop trying to change it into something unnatural for u. If in doubt, just ask yourself... what would Hu do?

 

[WobblyStroke]

I’m in the process of overhauling my stroke. After 55 years of doing it poorly but getting away with it, I’m trying to fix my problems. Sometimes is see the improvement and then I get in a money game and all the bad habits return. Currently it’s very frustrating but I’ll keep plugging away with improvement.

super common. often during overhaul type lessons, instructors forbid students to compete. the reason for this is that in the heat of battle we revert to old faithful. vompetition is not the time to be implementing changes that come with that familiar one step back to take two steps forward progression pattern. cant be risking one strp back so we give up on the two steps forward and do what we know.

ingrain it more in practice and maybe only play softer competition for a month or two. thereduced pressure to win will allow u to keep an eye on ur technique (usually a bad thing) si u can make sure u r doing things the way u want to.

in general, when competing, ur focus should be entirely what not how. when u do this and focus on the task ay hand, it makes it easy for your arm to apply the good ole trusted 'how' without u thinking about it. this passesas u ingrain ur changes in practice and less stressful competitive envitonments. then when u focus entirely on the game and shots u need to execute, ur new technique becomes the automatic choice. this process can take months.

 

[justnum]

There are theories about repetitive work and long term problems.

Pool is very much repetitive and if someone develops a poor mental routine, it can compound that mental consequences for negative or positive effects.

Pressures from competition or the desire to perform can be challenging standards to manage. The expectations coming into the sport can vary.

I call it the Toast Production problem. Its easy to make toast, but if you only have on toaster and try to use it commercially, it will break down faster.

For pool what standard is possible based on your exercises. Volume training specific shots is very possible.

Most sports break up training skills with structured volume programs. Rest periods are used. Improvement is not always continuous its discrete. Completion of the program delivers improved performance.

 

[jtompilot]

super common. often during overhaul type lessons, instructors forbid students to compete. the reason for this is that in the heat of battle we revert to old faithful. vompetition is not the time to be implementing changes that come with that familiar one step back to take two steps forward progression pattern. cant be risking one strp back so we give up on the two steps forward and do what we know.

ingrain it more in practice and maybe only play softer competition for a month or two. thereduced pressure to win will allow u to keep an eye on ur technique (usually a bad thing) si u can make sure u r doing things the way u want to.

in general, when competing, ur focus should be entirely what not how. when u do this and focus on the task ay hand, it makes it easy for your arm to apply the good ole trusted 'how' without u thinking about it. this passesas u ingrain ur changes in practice and less stressful competitive envitonments. then when u focus entirely on the game and shots u need to execute, ur new technique becomes the automatic choice. this process can take months.

I just run over the softer competition. I know it’s mainly a mental thing that keeps bringing up my bad habits under fire. I mostly play on 4 1/4” corner pockets and that also plays into it. I feel like a deadly gun slinger on buckets despite many bad habits.

 

[ShootingArts]

I just run over the softer competition. I know it’s mainly a mental thing that keeps bringing up my bad habits under fire. I mostly play on 4 1/4” corner pockets and that also plays into it. I feel like a deadly gun slinger on buckets despite many bad habits.

My bad habits and vices are my oldest companions. You can't expect me to give them up lightly!

One thing about open tournaments, we get a mix and will play all levels of competitors. I am happy to play tough competition, I try to make the experience bearable and even beneficial to lower level competitors if such things are to be found.

Hu

 

[KillerWhalePool]

My bad habits and vices are my oldest companions. You can't expect me to give them up lightly!

This person gets it!

 

[GoldCrown]

Game Goes Down The Toilet? Call me Kohler or TOTO.

 

[Dunnn51]

There are theories about repetitive work and long term problems.

Pool is very much repetitive and if someone develops a poor mental routine, it can compound that mental consequences for negative or positive effects.

Pressures from competition or the desire to perform can be challenging standards to manage. The expectations coming into the sport can vary.

I call it the Toast Production problem. Its easy to make toast, but if you only have on toaster and try to use it commercially, it will break down faster.

For pool what standard is possible based on your exercises. Volume training specific shots is very possible.

Most sports break up training skills with structured volume programs. Rest periods are used. Improvement is not always continuous its discrete. Completion of the program delivers improved performance.

Well,
You have said something constructive and helpful, cheers.

I have made it mandatory that if I go near my table at home; I will hit at least 100 balls. Thats 7 racks of 8-ball or straight pool. It has made me aware to be more serious when I approach the table.
The baseball analogy:
If a ball player just practices the sprint to 1st base all the time, how well will he run to third base when he needs to?

 

[George the Greek]

I'm 70 years old and will have to start from scratch. The biggest part for me will be putting the memory back into my cuing arm then working on a comfortable stance. I had a rock solid stance when playing and a natural stroke. It'll all come back with some table time

 

[WobblyStroke]

I'm 70 years old and will have to start from scratch. The biggest part for me will be putting the memory back into my cuing arm then working on a comfortable stance. I had a rock solid stance when playing and a natural stroke. It'll all come back with some table time

Just don't expect it to be what it was. Bodies changes. What was once 'normal' and easy to achieve may be out of reach physically. I had a rock solid stance in my 20s. I have a rock solid stance in my 40s...but with different body dimensions, accumulated injuries, and overall lower flexibility, my current rock solid stance doesn't look a thing like my old one. My body doesn't look a thing like my old one either lol so I guess that fits.

 

[George the Greek]

Just don't expect it to be what it was. Bodies changes. What was once 'normal' and easy to achieve may be out of reach physically. I had a rock solid stance in my 20s. I have a rock solid stance in my 40s...but with different body dimensions, accumulated injuries, and overall lower flexibility, my current rock solid stance doesn't look a thing like my old one. My body doesn't look a thing like my old one either lol so I guess that fits.

The aches and pains will dictate the stance lol. I doubt I'll be low on the cue like before and I have a ton of ways to get the cuing right. I was born on a 6x12 lol. One handed, two handed, eyes closed and walking for miles kept my stroke in pretty good shape. I've literally spent thousands of hours playing.

 

[FranCrimi]

I haven’t played in years, probably 3-4 years. Had a rough go with COVID a couple years ago and almost died, pulled through, and decided I wanted to go back to the game I love. But I wanted to be better, so I have started from scratch and have changed multiple things about my mechanics, and now my game has gone in the crapper. It’s rough. Anyone else have a similar experience with trying to get better and actually getting worse…way worse?

You might have been trying to change too many things at once. When you do that, you may wind up changing some things you may not have needed to change. Sometimes fixing one or two things makes other things fall into place. When you make a positive change in your game, it may feel like crap at first, but you should see results. Take it slow. Work on one or two new things at a time.

I remember once I had a slicing problem in golf, and I took my problem to a teacher. He changed my stance. It felt horrible but I was hitting the ball straight. So my point is, if you're not seeing results, then something's wrong.

 

[ShootingArts]

I'm 70 years old and will have to start from scratch. The biggest part for me will be putting the memory back into my cuing arm then working on a comfortable stance. I had a rock solid stance when playing and a natural stroke. It'll all come back with some table time

George, I suspect you would be working backwards getting your old stroke back and then working on your stance. Your stroke will ultimately be what your stance allows. That sweet stroke might not be possible to achieve, or achieve for more than very short sessions, with the stance you are forced to use now. Might as well build the stance first then modify your old stroke to match if it must be modified.

There is a bit of back and forth but what I am trying to say is that the stance is a lower building block and without a solid repeatable stance to base it off of the stroke means little. The stroke changes every time the stance does so every time you modify the stance the stroke is going to need some tuning.

Hu

 

[George the Greek]

George, I suspect you would be working backwards getting your old stroke back and then working on your stance. Your stroke will ultimately be what your stance allows. That sweet stroke might not be possible to achieve, or achieve for more than very short sessions, with the stance you are forced to use now. Might as well build the stance first then modify your old stroke to match if it must be modified.

There is a bit of back and forth but what I am trying to say is that the stance is a lower building block and without a solid repeatable stance to base it off of the stroke means little. The stroke changes every time the stance does so every time you modify the stance the stroke is going to need some tuning.

Hu

I know what your saying. I figure it'll be a struggle at 1st but know what I'll be looking for. No pain in the back, neck, no pressure on the eyes and the legs/feet are comfortable and have a solid foundation. The cuing arm won't be a big issue I would think and there's plenty of little routines to do. I used to put the cueball in the jaws(6x12)and an object ball on the blue spot and practice stun, draw and follow shots to make both balls. I also practiced one handed making both balls

 

[kollegedave]

I haven’t played in years, probably 3-4 years. Had a rough go with COVID a couple years ago and almost died, pulled through, and decided I wanted to go back to the game I love. But I wanted to be better, so I have started from scratch and have changed multiple things about my mechanics, and now my game has gone in the crapper. It’s rough. Anyone else have a similar experience with trying to get better and actually getting worse…way worse?

I think this is relatively common. If you had a long layoff and then decided to change your mechanics, I would be shocked if your game didn't suffer.

Mechanics can be a bit of rabbit hole that has the potential to cause a fair amount of suffering. I realize you are getting a lot of advice here, but I will throw in my 0.02 after struggling for a long time, finding some success, then ruining everything and working my way back-ish.

In my opinion,

1) Many "main-stream" teachers of mechanics over-emphasize "clearing" the body from the cue. If you look at most top pros, while they have a variety of styles, almost none of them have large-ish gaps between their body and their back arm. Why?

2) I think there is a tradeoff between body clearance and head position. As clearance increases, generally, your head position worsens. Elite pros, generally, have their head in a position that helps them see the shot in a way that makes accurate perception of the shot easier them, not harder.

3) Pros, generally, at the address position of the cue ball, have the thumb on their back hand pointed straight down or have the thumb straight down with the bottom knuckle curled back slightly...nearly identical to the straight down option. Why is this important? Broadly speaking adopting any position at the table that allows the grip on your backhand to accommodate a thumb that is straight down means that a player can move his or her cue through the cue ball without a lot of side-to-side stress on the grip hand. lfigueroa on this board noticed this and shared it with me years ago, and after years of watching for thumbs pointed down, I believe the "thumb-down" to be a sign that a set of mechanics is "not wrong" and potentially workable for high-level pool. Of course, you find a few exceptions, but watch some European pros at big events and look for thumbs that are straight down...it's eye opening.

4) A fair number of high-level pros adopt a controlled or downright slow back swing. Why is this important? I would submit a slow-ish backswing makes it easier for a player to accurately transition from moving back to moving forward. Some players pause to do this. Other players, (Bustemante) has a bunch of wild practice strokes that help him feel the shot, but right before he moves the cue forward to strike the cue ball, he moves the cue like he is sneaking up on the cueball. Generally, pro players are adopting techniques that help them make the transition from back to forward more durable, accurate, and smooth. How "slow is slow", Mark Wilson submits your stroke timing should mimic the controlled phrase of "Ladies and Gentleman"--back for "Ladies and", then beginning a smooth transition with "gentleman". I am not saying this is the only way, but it is a starting point if you want one.

I hope some of this helps you.

kollegedave

 

[justnum]

Try DrDaves billiard exam. Are you improving at the shots?

 

[WobblyStroke]

George, I suspect you would be working backwards getting your old stroke back and then working on your stance. Your stroke will ultimately be what your stance allows. That sweet stroke might not be possible to achieve, or achieve for more than very short sessions, with the stance you are forced to use now. Might as well build the stance first then modify your old stroke to match if it must be modified.

There is a bit of back and forth but what I am trying to say is that the stance is a lower building block and without a solid repeatable stance to base it off of the stroke means little. The stroke changes every time the stance does so every time you modify the stance the stroke is going to need some tuning.

Hu

i actually like george's approach of waking up the arm first.

ur right that stance is a vital fundamental and changes in stance cause changes everywhere else. however, starting with the stance limits the arm planes available to be used. by finding the arm plane and how the arm wants to work, foot position etc are set around that.

i'll use me as an example after a layoff. i got bigger and the way my arm swung around my body changed. this affected arm angle relative to body for easy stroking. my foot position and body angle had to be much different than before. starting with stance would take me much longer to build up my stroke compared to starting with my arm and building a stance around it. sounds backwards bc we do the opposite at the table but arm first is a better approach imo.

 

[George the Greek]

i actually like george's approach of waking up the arm first.

ur right that stance is a vital fundamental and changes in stance cause changes everywhere else. however, stating with the stance limits the arm planesavailable to be used. by finding the arm plane and how the arm wants to work, foor position etc are set around that.

i'll use me as an example after a layoff. i hot bigger and the way my arm swung around my body changed. this affected arm angle relative to body for easy stroking. my foot position amd body angle had to be much different than before. stafting with stance would take me much longer to build up my stroke compared to starting with my arm and building a stance around it. sounds backwards bc we do the opposite at the table but srm first is a better approach imo.

I was in the poolroom one morning hitting balls and 3 business type guys walked in and talked to the owner and said their friend was there for lessons.The so-called resident pro wasn't there so he directed them to me. I'm thinking wtf the guys like 300lbs how was I going to help this guy. He said he had trouble shooting straight lol. We grabbed a table (6x12) and I put the CB on the brown spot and said try shooting up the spots. Yup the went left then right but not to the black spot. After repeated efforts I said ok try this as I put a quarter btwn the rail and brown spot and got him to hold the cue with the tip at the CB and the cue resting on the rail. I said the cue is pointing straight and try getting somewhat In a stance be comfortable. He did that, hit the cueball and just went by the black spot. After repeated attempts he was getting better and I said that's gonna help if you keep at it. He paid me for my time and went away happier.