Reversing a call...days later

[PaulAlex7000]

Situation that arose in an in-house league 8 Ball using BCA rules:

Our guy sends the 8 into the pocket before its time. Other team, from somehow bizarrely (mis)interpreting parts of the BCA rules and ignoring other parts, states that the 8 Ball is just spotted and play continues (I know, I know).

Though we would have suffered a loss of game, we asked the co-league operator about this and he confirmed that the 8B is spotted.

Well, our guy won the game (1 game per team mate, round-robin format).

So days later, the other co-league operator (who wasn't there that night) does confirm that it's loss of game and the first co-league operator was wrong in his call.

So how should we play it? I can see both sides of the argument here. I don't like taking a win that was not earned or what really should have been a loss. But it was ruled the way it was ruled, so that should be that. That, and Note: All infractions must be called before another shot is taken, or else it will be deemed that no infraction
occurred from section 4.20 of the BCA rules.

 

[Ed Simmons]

So days later, the other co-league operator (who wasn't there that night) does confirm that it's loss of game and the first co-league operator was wrong in his call.

So how should we play it? .

Too late! Once to on-site director has made his ruling, (correct or not), the dispute is over. No different than an umpire in baseball. Can you imagine how many "do-overs" there would be if it were the other way around? Pool would also need it's own court system for appeals!

 

[GoTulane]

My opinion

Take the loss. You knew it was a loss, and even though the other team was arguing in your favor and the co-league operator called it wrong, just take the loss. You knew the rules, and should have just taken the loss in the beginning. Allowing more rules to dictate how this game should be seen, just causes more rules and ill-feelings to grow between the teams. Don't let one game, and an ignorant call by league players who do not know the rules as well cause problems for your team and the league. Play the game on the table - not the rule book. Good karma is always a good thing. JMHO

Michael

 

[softshot]

Situation that arose in an in-house league 8 Ball using BCA rules:

Our guy sends the 8 into the pocket before its time. Other team, from somehow bizarrely (mis)interpreting parts of the BCA rules and ignoring other parts, states that the 8 Ball is just spotted and play continues (I know, I know).

Though we would have suffered a loss of game, we asked the co-league operator about this and he confirmed that the 8B is spotted.

Well, our guy won the game (1 game per team mate, round-robin format).

So days later, the other co-league operator (who wasn't there that night) does confirm that it's loss of game and the first co-league operator was wrong in his call.

So how should we play it? I can see both sides of the argument here. I don't like taking a win that was not earned or what really should have been a loss. But it was ruled the way it was ruled, so that should be that. That, and Note: All infractions must be called before another shot is taken, or else it will be deemed that no infraction
occurred from section 4.20 of the BCA rules.

so... you KNEW it was wrong.. you KNEW you lost.. but didn't put up much of a fight... and now that it has been ruled ....just as you KNEW it would be...your pissed???

you knew the proper outcome from the beginning.. it took the powers that be a while to get it right.. but you KNEW what was right from the beginning..

milking the rules is one thing... but on an obvious rule ...especially one that you KNEW.. c'mon man

your not going to get many folks jumping behind you screaming about how it was a Bull**** call... we deserve to win... nah... not that kinda situation at all... you knew you lost the moment it happened...

Own that... seriously..

 

[Ed Simmons]

Am I reading this wrong?

so... you KNEW it was wrong.. you KNEW you lost.. but didn't put up much of a fight... and now that it has been ruled ....just as you KNEW it would be...your pissed???

.

After reading the last 2 posts, I have to wonder....what did I miss in the original question?
Paul's teammate TRIED to take the loss, and when the other team tried to keep the game going, they even asked the league director for a ruling. Once that ruling is given, all arguments are moot. Even if you think you are right, you don't argue after a ruling is given.
Also I don't think Paul is pissed. I think he realized his team got an undeserved bonus after a bad ruling.
Did I read this wrong?

 

[softshot]

After reading the last 2 posts, I have to wonder....what did I miss in the original question?
Paul's teammate TRIED to take the loss, and when the other team tried to keep the game going, they even asked the league director for a ruling. Once that ruling is given, all arguments are moot. Even if you think you are right, you don't argue after a ruling is given.
Also I don't think Paul is pissed. I think he realized his team got an undeserved bonus after a bad ruling.
Did I read this wrong?

any league director that would rule that an 8 ball sunk out of turn should be spotted. he should have been run out on a rail right then and there.

I can grab a banger out of any college bar.. knowing nothing of BCA rules..I make him leauge director. he'd still get that call right.


there is something fishy going on here.

 

[AZE]

Too late to reverse it now. Chalk it up.

 

[renard]

Situation that arose in an in-house league 8 Ball using BCA rules:

Our guy sends the 8 into the pocket before its time. Other team, from somehow bizarrely (mis)interpreting parts of the BCA rules and ignoring other parts, states that the 8 Ball is just spotted and play continues (I know, I know).

Though we would have suffered a loss of game, we asked the co-league operator about this and he confirmed that the 8B is spotted.

Well, our guy won the game (1 game per team mate, round-robin format).

So days later, the other co-league operator (who wasn't there that night) does confirm that it's loss of game and the first co-league operator was wrong in his call.

So how should we play it? I can see both sides of the argument here. I don't like taking a win that was not earned or what really should have been a loss. But it was ruled the way it was ruled, so that should be that. That, and Note: All infractions must be called before another shot is taken, or else it will be deemed that no infraction
occurred from section 4.20 of the BCA rules.

First I would have the first co-league operator fill out an ID 10T form to file for an new intellect. A league operator should know the rules by heart without reference to the book.

The call should stand as a proud badge of idiocy for all of those that made the fateful decision. This way there is little doubt of it happening again.

A card laid is a card played. One ugly win is simply a pimple on the butt of this whole joke. Why drop your pants to talk about an embarrassing moment ad nausium? The decision is just a few grains of sand on the beach anyway.

 

[Thunderball]

Paul's teammate TRIED to take the loss,

Ed I read the intial post twice...I'm still missing this part...

Paul,if YOU (or your captian) knew it was a loss,thats what you should have cleared up for the other team.You could (should) have taught them something instead of involving the LO and recieving what you knew was a bogus ruling.

That said,I disagree with the umpire analogy.This isn't a called ball that's really a strike.This is giving the red sox the win on the nights final paperwork when the yanks actually won.It was loss when it happened and the correct ruling now,even a week later is it's still a loss.

Take the loss,because thats what it was and will forever be...

 

[randyg]

any league director that would rule that an 8 ball sunk out of turn should be spotted. he should have been run out on a rail right then and there.

I can grab a banger out of any college bar.. knowing nothing of BCA rules..I make him leauge director. he'd still get that call right.


there is something fishy going on here.

DITTO.....SPF=randyg

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

This sorta reminds me of Baseball's Pine Tar Game. George Brett had just hit a homerun and as he celebrated his feat and a probable Royal win, Yankee manager Billy Martin stepped out of the dugout and asked that Brett's bat be inspected. As it turned out, Brett had too much pine tar on his bat. The homerun didn't count and he was ruled out. The Royals filed a protest and MLB overruled the onsite umpires and stated the homerun counted and that the game continue.

IMO, if this is a league and the ruling at the time was horribly wrong (as is the case), there is a certain obligation to make it right. That isn't to say that ALL rulings are subject to be overruled at a later point but I think some of the more profound ones should be treated differently. Making the 8 early is a loss everywhere in the world and the League Operator should have known this. Had the ruling been made by both teams, I would be less sympathetic and would think play should just continue. The involvement of the League Operator changes things.

 

[ugotda8]

Knowing the rules

Situation that arose in an in-house league 8 Ball using BCA rules:

Our guy sends the 8 into the pocket before its time. Other team, from somehow bizarrely (mis)interpreting parts of the BCA rules and ignoring other parts, states that the 8 Ball is just spotted and play continues (I know, I know).

Though we would have suffered a loss of game, we asked the co-league operator about this and he confirmed that the 8B is spotted.

Well, our guy won the game (1 game per team mate, round-robin format).

So days later, the other co-league operator (who wasn't there that night) does confirm that it's loss of game and the first co-league operator was wrong in his call.

So how should we play it? I can see both sides of the argument here. I don't like taking a win that was not earned or what really should have been a loss. But it was ruled the way it was ruled, so that should be that. That, and Note: All infractions must be called before another shot is taken, or else it will be deemed that no infraction
occurred from section 4.20 of the BCA rules.

The moment your opponent spotted the 8 and took his very next shot, the foul or loss in this case was nullified. This comes straight out of the BCA rule book. With some of the gray areas you will find in the BCA rules; this is not one of them and I see you know that.

It is not your job to "Put up a tremendous fight" over the rules in this particular case. It is the responsibility of all of us to know the rules of the game we are playing and it appears that you tried to make the right call and were over ridden by your opponent and the League Operator. Shame on them for not knowing the most basic of BCA rules!

Once you said it's a loss and they refused to take the win, the argument was over. Technically, your guy should have lost the game. However, the decision of the other team was to not take the win and play it out. That's not your fault.

Based specifically on the BCA rules...your guy won the game fair and square and there is no room for second guessing on this one!

IMO, your league operator was horribly wrong in his ruling. However, to undo it now makes them just as wrong.

The LO made a bad call. But the BCA covers this in the rule book as well. The referee's call is final and won't be over turned.

 

[TX Poolnut]

If you asked the LO and a ruling was handed down, I don't see how that ruling, right or wrong, can be overturned days later. The rules say his ruling is final.

 

[Snapshot9]

This is exactly why

cell phones were invented, so you could call the other league operator, the one that knows the rules, and get a correct ruling from him. The other one could have overridden the one that originally made the bad call.

And you're telling me, no one there had a BCA rules book with them???

 

[ugotda8]

cell phones were invented, so you could call the other league operator, the one that knows the rules, and get a correct ruling from him. The other one could have overridden the one that originally made the bad call.

And you're telling me, no one there had a BCA rules book with them???

That's a great point!!! Most team captains in our league carry a rule book with them. And, if one doesn't have it...every other team captain that does will gladly let them use it to help make the right call.

And, here I was thinking cell phones were invented to keep up with my 16 year old daughter when she is out funning. Dang, learn something new every day!!!! LMAO.

 

[bfdlad]

The moment your opponent spotted the 8 and took his very next shot, the foul was nullified. This comes straight out of the BCA rule book. With some of the gray areas you will find in the BCA rules; this is not one of them and I see you know that.

It is not your job to "Put up a tremendous fight" over the rules in this particular case. It is the responsibility of all of us to know the rules of the game we are playing and it appears that you tried to make the right call and were over ridden by your opponent and the League Operator. Shame on them for not knowing the most basic of BCA rules!

Once you said it's a loss and they refused to take the win, the argument was over. Technically, your guy should have lost the game. However, the decision of the other team was to not take the win and play it out. That's not your fault.

Based specifically on the BCA rules...your guy won the game fair and square and there is no room for second guessing on this one!

IMO, your league operator was horribly wrong in his ruling. However, to undo it now makes them just as wrong.

The LO made a bad call. But the BCA covers this in the rule book as well. The referee's call is final and won't be over turned.

Ok, here is my take on this and it is something that nobody had mentioned to this point. If re spotting the 8 was decided to be the call for that game that sets the rule for the night and every other match that was played. Therefore everyone was playing by the same rules. If they overturn that call then they need to find out how many other games that night respotted the 8 also and reverse that game also (if it happened) Like I said once that call had been made everyone was playing with the same rules and could have been used as a tactic if needed. Lets say you opponent is on the 8 and it is hanging you could go head and put it in right? I also agree that even though it was loss of game the other player did play on and so nagated the foul. If your opponent had touched a ball with his stick while bridging and turned to you and said "I touched that ball" and you say "Oh just go ahead" and he runs the table are you going to go back and say well I should have had ball in hand? No you let the foul go therefore you lost.

 

[cuejoey]

See post number 2......................

 

[George]

so... you KNEW it was wrong.. you KNEW you lost.. but didn't put up much of a fight... and now that it has been ruled ....just as you KNEW it would be...your pissed???

you knew the proper outcome from the beginning.. it took the powers that be a while to get it right.. but you KNEW what was right from the beginning..

milking the rules is one thing... but on an obvious rule ...especially one that you KNEW.. c'mon man

your not going to get many folks jumping behind you screaming about how it was a Bull**** call... we deserve to win... nah... not that kinda situation at all... you knew you lost the moment it happened...

Own that... seriously..

What he said.......

 

[Jaden]

This is kind of ridiculous.

I find it kind of ridiculous that many people are posting that he should just take the loss now, after the fact. It is up to the LO to make the call period. You can't argue too much with the league operator or you chance being thrown out. I have only been in one league in my life and that was a local league out of Danny K's in Orange, Ca. I've never ran into this sort of problem because those LO's really knew what they were doing. The fact of the matter is, it was called by the PTB and that is that. You can bring it to the LO's attention and make sure he finds out from his superiors in the leagu what should really have been the correct call and make sure it doesn't happen again, but you can't go back and change the decision, it was the decision made by the person in charge.

 

[ugotda8]

I find it kind of ridiculous that many people are posting that he should just take the loss now, after the fact. It is up to the LO to make the call period. You can't argue too much with the league operator or you chance being thrown out. I have only been in one league in my life and that was a local league out of Danny K's in Orange, Ca. I've never ran into this sort of problem because those LO's really knew what they were doing. The fact of the matter is, it was called by the PTB and that is that. You can bring it to the LO's attention and make sure he finds out from his superiors in the leagu what should really have been the correct call and make sure it doesn't happen again, but you can't go back and change the decision, it was the decision made by the person in charge.

AMEN!!! Every umpire, referee etc. finds themselves in a position from time to time after ball games whereby the realize they blew a call that could have effected the outcome of the game.

You don't see us going back and changing the outcome when the umpire realizes what he did.

1. If the rules are stated clearly and whether you agree with them or not; As long as you play within the rules, you can't be accused of doing anything wrong.

2. When a call is made, even when you absolutely know it's wrong, the call is made and you have to move on or you can get hit with unsportsman like conduct and forfiet the entire shooting match.

The guy said he knew they lost the game. Then, he was argued with by the opposing team and was over ridden by the LO.

Had I of been the player that made the 8 out of turn, I would have insisted on taking the loss and if my opponent refused...I would have forfieted that game to him on the spot. That would have been my choice.

If I would have accepted the decision and played on...I would have been right for doing that as well since the rules are clear on this.

While some are arguing that it was wrong to play on and take the win. And that this gentleman should own up to it and take responsibility for the mistake and let them over turn it...

I would suggest the LO needs to step up, admit the mistake and know HIS RULES well enough to know that there is no going back and changing it now. The LO owes the other team a sincere apology, but he does not owe them a game because based on BCA Rules...the opposing team lost the game.