Rules Question

Snapshot9

son of 3 leg 1 eye dog ..
Silver Member
I have never come across this situation before, and that's why I am asking:

In Short rack 8 ball (4 stripes, 4 solids, and 8 ball racked as 9 ball, then played as normal BCA 8 ball after the break), this is what happened:

Player made 3 stripes and a solid on the break. Player then shoots the 1 remaining stripe , and makes it but scratches.

Does the incoming opponent HAVE to takwe solids, or can they just shoot the 8 ball in with ball in hand, since the table is still open?
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
I have never come across this situation before, and that's why I am asking:

In Short rack 8 ball (4 stripes, 4 solids, and 8 ball racked as 9 ball, then played as normal BCA 8 ball after the break), this is what happened:

Player made 3 stripes and a solid on the break. Player then shoots the 1 remaining stripe , and makes it but scratches.

Does the incoming opponent HAVE to takwe solids, or can they just shoot the 8 ball in with ball in hand, since the table is still open?

I understand that the table is open till a ball of one group is legally made
after the break.
If you're playing me, you're on the 8-ball......
....make sure you don't snooker yourself.:)
 

FairladyZ

The Boss Stooge
Silver Member
I just learned a new game from this thread already.....short rack 8-ball....Interesting!!
 

2andOUT

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
should be ball in hand on solids.

the 8 ball cannot be made until a legal shot to pocket a group. since the stripes are gone and a group was not established legally, the shooter has to take solids.

with open table and only 4 balls to make, it shouldn't matter.
 

SloMoHolic

When will then be now?
Silver Member
Here's how I see it:

The table is still open. It will remain open until either a solid or stripe is called and legally made. Sinking the 8 ball while the table is still open results in loss of game. Even contacting the 8 ball first while the table is open is a foul.

Because the stripes are not available, the only options for the incoming player are to call a solid or play a safe.

-Blake


From the WPA 8-ball rules:

3.4 Open Table / Choosing Groups

Before groups are determined, the table is said to be “open,” and before each shot, the shooter must call his intended ball. If the shooter legally pockets his called ball, the corresponding group becomes his, and his opponent is assigned the other group. If he fails to legally pocket his called ball, the table remains open and play passes to the other player. When the table is “open”, any object ball may be struck first except the eight ball.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/web/index.asp?id=114&pagetype=rules#3.4
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Sooooo..... 2n out and SloMo

What happens if you make 4 low balls and 4 high balls on the break?
Stalemate?......or automatic loss?
 

SloMoHolic

When will then be now?
Silver Member
Sooooo..... 2n out and SloMo

What happens if you make 4 low balls and 4 high balls on the break?
Stalemate?......or automatic loss?

Stalemate. :)

I'm trying to find an old thread from rec.sport.billiard where I asked that same question. I'll post a link if I find it...

-Blake
 

SloMoHolic

When will then be now?
Silver Member
Stalemate. :)

I'm trying to find an old thread from rec.sport.billiard where I asked that same question. I'll post a link if I find it...

-Blake

Basically, the consensus is that the rules just don't consider the possibility of such a thing happening. It "feels" like the shooter should be able to move on to the 8-ball, but the rules are pretty clear in stating that, in this situation, shooting the 8-ball would be a foul (and making it would be loss of game). Anyway, this question does come up from time to time. I found at least 6 similar questions posted in RSB over the past 15 years.

Here it is, my blast from the past. My favorite answer is Bob Green's final response...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.sport.billiard/BWbK1pspZCI/1BtG5G6nfOAJ

-Blake
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Basically, the consensus is that the rules just don't consider the possibility of such a thing happening. It "feels" like the shooter should be able to move on to the 8-ball, but the rules are pretty clear in stating that, in this situation, shooting the 8-ball would be a foul (and making it would be loss of game). Anyway, this question does come up from time to time. I found at least 6 similar questions posted in RSB over the past 15 years.

Here it is, my blast from the past. My favorite answer is Bob Green's final response...

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.sport.billiard/BWbK1pspZCI/1BtG5G6nfOAJ

-Blake

Good find, SloMo......but just like a court of law, the SPIRIT of the rules are more important than the LETTER.

If you go by the OP's scenario and your rule....
...all the man has to do is sink ONE lowball,,,,,and the breaker can't win,,,,,,,
,,,,,he's got no high balls to shoot.

.....or the breaker misses the high ball and leaves it hanging.....
.....so the other guy makes a low ball and caroms the high ball in....
...automatic win?

Some things have to be IMPLIED by common sense........
.....or we'll need a team of lawyers to do anything.....
Care to bang a few?....No, sorry, my lawyer is on vacation.
:)
 

gregcantrall

Center Ball
Silver Member
The BCAPL does address this situation!

http://www.playbca.com/downloads/rulebook/completerulebook.aspx

2-6 Establishing Groups

1. Groups are established when the first object ball is legally pocketed on a shot after the
break. The player legally pocketing the first ball is assigned that group, and the opponent
is assigned the other group. You cannot establish a group on a safety. (AR p. 97)

2. If all balls of either group are pocketed on the break or illegally pocketed before
groups are established, either player may legally shoot the 8-ball.
 

SloMoHolic

When will then be now?
Silver Member
Good find, SloMo......but just like a court of law, the SPIRIT of the rules are more important than the LETTER.

If you go by the OP's scenario and your rule....
...all the man has to do is sink ONE lowball,,,,,and the breaker can't win,,,,,,,
,,,,,he's got no high balls to shoot.

.....or the breaker misses the high ball and leaves it hanging.....
.....so the other guy makes a low ball and caroms the high ball in....
...automatic win?

Some things have to be IMPLIED by common sense........
.....or we'll need a team of lawyers to do anything.....
Care to bang a few?....No, sorry, my lawyer is on vacation.
:)

Of course, if one player establishes one group, their opponent gets the other group. That part is clearly addressed by the rules.

Anyway, I'm with ya, pt. The omission of the OP's unique situation is what makes the rule question interesting. Obviously, this situation would not happen nearly as often in regular full-rack 8-ball.

When the spirit of the law doesn't align with the letter of the law, the law gets updated (or a legal precedent is established).

It looks like the BCA has done this (see Greg's link), but the WSR haven't caught up yet. Don't even ask me about APA. ;)

Thanks for choosing the law offices of SlomoHolic. I'll send your bill as soon as I add up the hours. :)

-Blake
 

SloMoHolic

When will then be now?
Silver Member
Just for fun, in the old RSB link I posted earlier, one question was:

What happens if the breaker makes all 7 solids and all 7 stripes on the break?

Bob Green's response:
Put the rails back on the table!

:)
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Just for fun, in the old RSB link I posted earlier, one question was:

What happens if the breaker makes all 7 solids and all 7 stripes on the break?

Bob Green's response:
Put the rails back on the table!

:)

I like this Bob Green.:grin:
And I liked the thread.....Thanx Ralph Kramden.

I was curious to see if we had a Zeno's paradox going here....or a Catch 22.

SloMo....will you take a check for the legal fees?
....uh, don't deposit it right away.....:eek:
 

Snapshot9

son of 3 leg 1 eye dog ..
Silver Member
So, am I to gather that under the WPA, you would have to take solids, make them, and then shoot the 8 while under BCA rules you could just take ball in hand and shoot the 8?

Since we play by BCA rules in those weekend tournaments, their rules would govern.
 
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