squirt robot results

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
FYI, my February '08 BD article shows a bunch of interesting results from a squirt-testing machine some students and I designed and built recently. The article contains illustrations and graphs showing data for:

- how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with speed.

- how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with twist angle of a laminated shaft.

- how squirt varies as end-mass of different amounts is added at different distances from the tip.

Please check out the article and let me know if you have any feedback, comments, or questions.

Thanks,
Dave
 

jdr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I love stuff like this. Keep up the good work. It's an important job separating myth from reality...
 

DougT

Illustrated Principles
Myth busting

dr_dave said:
- how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with speed.

- how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with twist angle of a laminated shaft.

- how squirt varies as end-mass of different amounts is added at different distances from the tip.

Thanks,
Dave

thanks much for posting, Dr. Dave. I caught this article, and have to admit that I was surprised at the lack of varience with the flat-laminated shaft.

I've been a fan of your articles, and I'm glad you're beating down the myths and misconceptions to help us play this game better

Doug
 

Majic

With The Lights ON !!
Silver Member
Nice work

dr_dave said:
FYI, my February '08 BD article shows a bunch of interesting results from a squirt-testing machine some students and I designed and built recently. The article contains illustrations and graphs showing data for:

- how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with speed.

- how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with twist angle of a laminated shaft.

- how squirt varies as end-mass of different amounts is added at different distances from the tip.

Please check out the article and let me know if you have any feedback, comments, or questions.

Thanks,
Dave

This is the kind of info that I was hoping to see when I joined this forum, as opposed to the vote for me threads.
 

junksecret

Certified Fish
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
FYI, my February '08 BD article shows a bunch of interesting results from a squirt-testing machine some students and I designed and built recently. The article contains illustrations and graphs showing data for:

- how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with speed.

- how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with twist angle of a laminated shaft.

- how squirt varies as end-mass of different amounts is added at different distances from the tip.

Please check out the article and let me know if you have any feedback, comments, or questions.

Thanks,
Dave

I'm a little confused because I'm not used to seeing opinions backed up by actual data in this forum....:)

Maybe we should post a poll and then we could graph those results...(smirking)

Great job and REP to you Dr.!!!!

Joe
 

champ2107

Banned
ahhhhh? man started reading and my brain locked up! I know, hard thing to do when u dont have one right? lol life is too stressful as it is and u want me to figure what all that stuff means? whew I think i am gonna lay my head down now! kidden, I have been through your site a number of times keep up the passion and good work!
 
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Joe T

New member
dr_dave said:
FYI, my February '08 BD article shows a bunch of interesting results from a squirt-testing machine some students and I designed and built recently. The article contains illustrations and graphs showing data for:

- how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with speed.

- how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with twist angle of a laminated shaft.

- how squirt varies as end-mass of different amounts is added at different distances from the tip.

Please check out the article and let me know if you have any feedback, comments, or questions.

Thanks,
Dave

Geeze will ya let me go to sleep already! I'm sorry I haven't been keeping up with your material on squirt & swerve but I will be from now on and will make sure to make references to it whenever possible.

How is the cue stick aligned when applying the side spin?
 

td873

C is for Cookie
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
Please check out the article and let me know if you have any feedback, comments, or questions.
Two interesting sidenotes:
1) bridging closer than 7" can affect squirt in remarkable ways - with variables suchs as open vs. closed bridge, and tightness of the bridge potentially affecting shot results. (Unless I am misinterpreting your data, this also dispels another theory - i.e., that bridging closer has no effect on squirt)

2) the players shaft had less deflection "out of the box" than the Meucci laminated shaft.

-td
 

Fatboy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Majic said:
This is the kind of info that I was hoping to see when I joined this forum, as opposed to the vote for me threads.

i was just about to vote for you. :D ;)

Dave has put alot of effort into his work on this subject and thats great for the game. I havent ever met him but he has my highest respect. Anyone contributing to pool is what we need. Thanks Dave!!
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
dr_dave said:
FYI, my February '08 BD article shows a bunch of interesting results from a squirt-testing machine some students and I designed and built recently. The article contains illustrations and graphs showing data for:

- how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with speed.

- how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with twist angle of a laminated shaft.

- how squirt varies as end-mass of different amounts is added at different distances from the tip.

Please check out the article and let me know if you have any feedback, comments, or questions.

Thanks,
Dave
Fantastic stuff Dave. I think the next thing (and I'm sure you already have a next thing) is to tie together why other robots measurement systems have different results as well as the study of "effective squirt" or "overall squirt adjustment."

Also, from these direct measurements, what are the squirt pivot points? These obviouslyl would be squirt pivot points for squirt and squirt only.

Fred
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
td873 said:
Two interesting sidenotes:
1) bridging closer than 7" can affect squirt in remarkable ways - with variables suchs as open vs. closed bridge, and tightness of the bridge potentially affecting shot results. (Unless I am misinterpreting your data, this also dispels another theory - i.e., that bridging closer has no effect on squirt)
Help me out, Tom. How did you get such a conclusion? Adding mass at various distances is a completely different physical model than bridging with a hand at different lengths.

However, it is a note worth investigating because IMO, it's the bridge length *and* the materials used by the Myth Destroyer that makes its result unrealistic. The material (bridge and grip) is too stiff, much stiffer than a hand could ever be. They combination falsely adds mass to the collision, IMO.

I think it's a good next step to investigate. I'm sure Dave has it on his list. ;)


Fred
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Joe T said:
Geeze will ya let me go to sleep already! I'm sorry I haven't been keeping up with your material on squirt & swerve but I will be from now on and will make sure to make references to it whenever possible.

How is the cue stick aligned when applying the side spin?

Joe, remember your question about how far from the tip added mass makes a difference? Take a look at Dave's Diagram #4 - looks like the effect disappears at about 7 inches.

Dave, does this 7-inch distance correlate well with the speed of transverse waves and the ~1ms tip/ball contact time (I don't know the math).

pj
chgo
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Cornerman said:
...it's the bridge length *and* the materials used by the Myth Destroyer that makes its result unrealistic. The material (bridge and grip) is too stiff, much stiffer than a hand could ever be. They combination falsely adds mass to the collision, IMO.

I think it's a good next step to investigate. I'm sure Dave has it on his list.:)

I second that. I've wondered for a long time why those tests show results so different from expected.

pj
chgo
 

td873

C is for Cookie
Silver Member
How did you get such a conclusion? Adding mass at various distances is a completely different physical model than bridging with a hand at different lengths.

[...]
A few reasons for my conclusion:

1) The way mass is added is not in question, just the fact that it is added. It could be through a clip, a lead weight, bubble wrap, or, in this instance, your bridge. For example, if a closed bridge "slid" with the cue at a specific distance (say 4" from the tip), rather than the cue sliding through the bridge, there would be an effect end mass change, albeit a difficult one to measure since the entire weight of your bridge would not be effectively added to the shaft. But an addition nonetheless. Even taking into consideration the "give" properties of skin, there is some weight added by your fingers (i.e., resting on the cue (explained a little more below)).

2) The timing of the addition of the weight is not an issue. The .3 or 1.1 g Dr. Dave used could be added at any time before contact and still yield increased squirt. Thus, a cue is sliding through a bridge would be an equivalent system to adding "end" weight during, or towards the end of, the stroking process. Where your hand is and the time of contact (i.e., distance from the cue ball) will dictate how much the endmass will change.

[NB Based on Dr. Dave's results, extrapolating to a .1 g increase in effective endmass results in something like a 0.5 degree change in squirt at a distance 3 distance from the tip, and .25 degrees at 4 inches. I'm sure this could be calculated to a greater degree of error, but for the sake of my conclusion, I noted that .1 g is not very much weight, and .5 degree change in squirt (which results in about a .75" in horizontal distance over a 7 foot distance - which about 1/3 of a cue ball), and .25 degrees yields about .37"]​

3a) In order for the bridge not to matter, it would have to be (a) greater than 7" away from the tip, or (b) result in no change in endmass at all. I have tried to contemplate different ways for (b) to occur, and the best I could come up with was an open bridge.

3b) Taking myself farther along this rosy path: I assumed a finger weighed 1.1 g (since it was a convenient number ;)). If you have a closed bridge, even a loose one, there is some part of your finger, skin, knuckle, something resting on the cue at impact. If this weight happens to be .3g, you would get the results show in Fig. 4. And even at .1 g, it would have some effect as I noted above. The tighter your bridge, the more weight of you finger is applied to the cue. Along with this is the likelihood that (at least some percentage of) the entire weight of your hand will be applied to the cue as well. If your bridge was tight enough, you would end up with a physical approximation of Mike's vice grip experiment (with the total added weight (potentially) being your entire hand).

Thus, it appears (at least to me) that bridging would, in fact, affect end mass - either by creating more endmass, or by not doing so (i.e., an open bridge). And the closer the bridge to the tip, the greater the effect of even a small addition of weight. Specifically, the good Drs. results show that at up to about 4.5" a very minimal addition of mass will result in measurable squirt variance, and at 2", the results are dramatic.

Are there any specific reasons why you think a bridge, or even a finger resting on the cue, would have zero effect on end mass? Maybe I'm missing something.

IMO, it's the bridge length *and* the materials used by the Myth Destroyer that makes its result unrealistic. The material (bridge and grip) is too stiff, much stiffer than a hand could ever be. The combination falsely adds mass to the collision, IMO.
Bridge length past 7" is irrelevant (as Dr. Dave showed). The "rigidness" of the bridge (i.e, too stiff) results in something like Mike's vice grip experiment. And although the results are clearly an extreme (super tight grip and a questionable distance), they illustrate that a bridge does in fact add end mass.

-td
 
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td873

C is for Cookie
Silver Member
Comment on Meucci Shaft

dr_dave said:
how squirt varies (or doesn't vary) with twist angle of a laminated shaft.
Dr. Dave,

I have a question, comment, and two potential experiments on this.

Question: Did the Meucci shaft actually exhibit stiffness variance at different orientations?

Comment: Your Diagram 3 and relevant experiment are premised on the fact that the Meucci shaft actually has stiffness variance. However, your results are also consistent with a shaft that has no stiffness variance (notwithstanding Meucci's marketing to the contrary). Your data may actually show that Meucci shafts have no stiffness variance based on orientation rather than conclusively showing that stiffness has no significant effect on squirt. In particular, your data illustrates that Meucci's construction results in a much stiffer shaft in all orientations, than a standard Player's shaft. Put another way, your experiment may simply show that Meucci is marketing an effect that doesn't exists.

My concern is that your final conclusion is premised on the existence of stiffness variance - but the shaft may actually have none (due to construction, glues, material properties, etc). Although results of other experiments may indeed support your final conclusion, I do not believe that relying on the Meucci shaft experiment (alone) is "conclusive" on this point.
The "end-mass" might vary slightly with orientation due to slight stiffness variation (see TP A.31), but the effect is obviously not significant in the data."​

Potential experiment 1: use weights on the end of the meucci shaft (at the same orientations as your squir experiment), to illustrate the Meucci variance in stiffness. Perhaps putting a fulcrum at various distances for dramatic effect.

Potential experiment 2 (I think it would be interesting to run this anyway, just to see the data): since you have data with the meucci shaft now. Would it be possible to modify the shaft, and/or run tests with new shafts, to create a situation that may reflect stiffness better? My thought was to repeat the experiments using shafts as shown below.

As shafts A and B are rotated, the orientation of the remaining wood will change. 90 degrees would represent the "stiffest" orientation (since the shaft will have a tendency not to "bend" away from the cue ball), while 0 would be the "least" stiff, since it will allow the most bending of the shaft. B also illustrates how an inconsistent stiffness may manifest itself (if at all).

image002.jpg


If you don't want to cut up a perfectly good shaft, I'm sure we can gather up support to buy a few shafts to use.

Regards,

-td
 

arsenius

Nothing ever registers...
Silver Member
Joe T said:
How is the cue stick aligned when applying the side spin?

I'm curious about this too. Assuming he tested parallel english (since the setup didn't look very changeable/moveable), I'd like to see the results with front and back hand also. Especially since I just watched those videos of Joe's!
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks to everybody

junksecret said:
I'm a little confused because I'm not used to seeing opinions backed up by actual data in this forum....:)

Maybe we should post a poll and then we could graph those results...(smirking)

Great job and REP to you Dr.!!!!
Thanks to everybody in this and other threads for the positive feedback and supportive words. I appreciate it.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I see your smirk above, but if you want to see an interesting example of a poll graph, see my article dealing with low-squirt cues. I wish I had posted the poll on AZB instead. I might have gotten a lot more data. (smirk back at you) :)
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
squirt angle relative to line of cue

arsenius said:
I'm curious about this too. Assuming he tested parallel english (since the setup didn't look very changeable/moveable), I'd like to see the results with front and back hand also. Especially since I just watched those videos of Joe's!
The cue always remains straight along the aiming line. The squirt angle is measured relative to this line. The amount of English is varied with the machine by shifting the CB position sideways. We are still careful to measure the squirt angle relative to the cue line and CB direction. If one is using aim-and-pivot English (see my Nov '07 article for illustrations), the cue line is changed but the squirt angle definition is still the same. Does that make sense?

Regards,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
natural pivot length

Cornerman said:
Fantastic stuff Dave. I think the next thing (and I'm sure you already have a next thing) is to tie together why other robots measurement systems have different results as well as the study of "effective squirt" or "overall squirt adjustment."

Also, from these direct measurements, what are the squirt pivot points? These obviouslyl would be squirt pivot points for squirt and squirt only.
Fred,

Excellent comments and suggestions!

Concerning why my results differ from other published data, see the paragraph at the bottom of page 3 in TP B.1. I trust my numbers because I get good agreement between measured and calculated natural pivot lengths based on my squirt measurements.

Concerning pivot points, what I am reporting is the "natural pivot length" for the cue, based only on squirt (CB deflection). I think other "effective pivot lengths" to also account for throw and/or swerve are difficult to define and they vary with ball and cloth conditions; although, I don't doubt that they might be useful with certain types of shots. The purpose of the machine is to characterize and compare cues independent of ball and cloth conditions.

Regards,
Dave
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
arsenius said:
I'm curious about this too. Assuming he tested parallel english (since the setup didn't look very changeable/moveable), I'd like to see the results with front and back hand also. Especially since I just watched those videos of Joe's!

No matter how you apply english (FHE, BHE, other), the result is the same: if you look straight down the stick (like aiming a rifle) at the moment the tip hits the cue ball, it looks like Dr. Dave's setup. Everything else (moving the backhand, moving the fronthand, moving both, etc.) happens before the tip hits the CB and doesn't matter to this outcome.

The result is also the same as far as where the cue ball goes: if that shaft produces 2 degrees of squirt with that amount of sidespin, then the cue ball will go at a 2-degree angle from the line you're looking down (along the cue) - no matter if you use BHE, FHE or other to get the stick there.

pj
chgo
 
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