Stats -- Chohan vs. Frost One-Pocket Race to 30, November 2020

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Here are some results from the Tony Chohan vs. Scott Frost "Champions Challenge" One-Pocket match played November 19-21, 2020 at Paradise Billiards in Lantana (Atlantis), Florida. Pay-per-view live streaming was provided by PoolActionTV.

This match was a 3-day race to 30 games, with play stopping each day when the leader reached multiples of 10. The lead commentator (by phone) was Jeremy Jones. Additional commentary, all from the site, was provided by Ray Hansen each day, Tom Wirth on part of Days 2 and 3, and Billy Incardona on part of Day 3. Chohan won the match 30 - 27.

Conditions -- The conditions for this match included:
- Diamond 9-foot table with 4¼" corner pockets and blue Simonis 860 HR cloth;​
- triangle rack;​
- rack your own with alternating breaks;​
- re-break if a ball is made on the break (occurred twice);​
- no shot clock;​
- cue-ball fouls only; and​
- lag for opening break on first day (won by Frost)​

Match results, in games (Chohan's score first)
Day 1 -- 4 - 10​
Day 2 -- 16 - 7 (2-day total 20 - 17)​
Day 3 -- 10 - 10​
Total -- 30 - 27​

Games won by breaker
Chohan -- 14 of 28 (50%)​
Frost -- 13 of 29 (45%)​
Total -- 27 of 57 (47%)​

Breaks by side of table (viewing from head to foot)
Chohan -- Broke from his right all 28 times (14 wins, 14 losses).​
Frost -- Broke from his right all 29 times (13 wins, 16 losses).​

Games won by player who scored the first point (or had it scored for him)
Chohan -- 20 of 28 (71%)​
Frost -- 19 of 29 (66%)​
Total -- 39 of 57 (68%)​

Scratches on the break -- Once (by Frost, who won the game).

Balls made on the break -- Twice (once by each player, requiring a re-break).

Games in which the player had the lead at some point
Chohan -- 40 games, his 30 wins plus 10 games he lost.​
Frost -- 43 games, his 27 wins plus 16 games he lost.​

Ball counts by length of run* -- The total ball counts resulted from the following runs and fouls. Counts are given for Chohan first, then Frost, then the total.
1 ball -- 58 times, 60 times, 118 times​
2 balls -- 26, 30, 56​
3 balls -- 12, 13, 25​
4 balls -- 8, 12, 20​
5 balls -- 11, 7, 18​
6 balls -- 3, 4, 7​
7 balls -- 3, 3, 6​
8 balls -- 3, 5, 8​
9 balls -- 1, 0, 1​
Plus balls pocketed by opponent -- 27, 19, 46​
Minus fouls -- 34, 45, 79​
TOTAL ball count -- 298, 301, 599​
Average game score -- 8 - 2.8 for games won by Chohan, 8 - 2.1 for games won by Frost, 8 - 2.5 in total.​

Distribution of run-outs to win the games.* Counts are given for Chohan first, then Frost, then the total.
1 ball -- 11 times, 10 times, 21 times (37% of the 57 games)​
2 balls -- 9, 5, 14​
3 balls -- 1, 1, 2​
4 balls -- 2, 1, 3​
5 balls -- 2, 3, 5​
6 balls -- 0, 1, 1​
7 balls -- 2, 1, 3​
8 or 9 balls -- 3, 5, 8 (14%)​
Average (mean) "out" run -- 3.2 balls​
Average (median) "out" run -- 2 balls​

Distribution of lengths of games
Under 10 minutes -- 11 games (19% of the 57 games)​
10 - 19 min. -- 25​
20 - 29 min. -- 10​
30 - 59 min. -- 8​
60+ min. -- 3 (longest 77 min.)​
Total -- 57​

Match length (including racking and timeouts)
Day 1 -- 5 hours, 23 minutes​
Day 2 -- 9 hours, 54 min.​
Day 3 -- 6 hours, 58 min.​
Total -- 22 hours, 15 min.​

Average minutes per game
Day 1 -- 23.1 (approx. 20.9 not counting timeouts)​
Day 2 -- 25.8 (23.8)​
Day 3 -- 20.9 (18.2)​
Total -- 23.4 (21.1)​

*May contain a few inaccuracies caused by my occasional loss of attention.
 
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ideologist

I don't never exaggerate
Silver Member
Great stats as usual

Do you know how many intentional safety fouls were taken by each player? Or is that the 34/46 notation?
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Do you know how many intentional safety fouls were taken by each player? Or is that the 34/46 notation?
The 34, 45, 79 are fouls of all types, both intentional and unintentional. I could give you a count on the pocket scratches versus all other fouls, but it is sometimes impossible to tell whether the other fouls were intended, not intended, or shot without regard to whether a foul results.
 

J SCHWARZ

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Wouldnt of thought day 2 had the longest matches while Tony went 11 and 1 at one point. Interesting. Looks the the break means very little in this match. Thanks for all the stats.
 

patscue

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Here are some results from the Tony Chohan vs. Scott Frost "Champions Challenge" One-Pocket match played November 19-21, 2020 at Paradise Billiards in Lantana (Atlantis), Florida. Pay-per-view live streaming was provided by PoolActionTV.

This match was a 3-day race to 30 games, with play stopping each day when the leader reached multiples of 10. The lead commentator (by phone) was Jeremy Jones. Additional commentary, all from the site, was provided by Ray Hansen each day, Tom Wirth on part of Days 2 and 3, and Billy Incardona on part of Day 3. Chohan won the match 30 - 27.

Conditions -- The conditions for this match included:
- Diamond 9-foot table with 4¼" corner pockets and blue Simonis 860 HR cloth;​
- triangle rack;​
- rack your own with alternating breaks;​
- re-break if a ball is made on the break (occurred twice);​
- no shot clock;​
- cue-ball fouls only; and​
- lag for opening break on first day (won by Frost)​

Match results, in games (Chohan's score first)
Day 1 -- 4 - 10​
Day 2 -- 16 - 7 (2-day total 20 - 17)​
Day 3 -- 10 - 10​
Total -- 30 - 27​

Games won by breaker
Chohan -- 14 of 28 (50%)​
Frost -- 13 of 29 (45%)​
Total -- 27 of 57 (47%)​

Breaks by side of table (viewing from head to foot)
Chohan -- Broke from his right all 28 times (14 wins, 14 losses).​
Frost -- Broke from his right all 29 times (13 wins, 16 losses).​

Games won by player who scored the first point (or had it scored for him)
Chohan -- 20 of 28 (71%)​
Frost -- 19 of 29 (66%)​
Total -- 39 of 57 (68%)​

Scratches on the break -- Once (by Frost, who won the game).

Balls made on the break -- Twice (once by each player, requiring a re-break).

Games in which the player had the lead at some point
Chohan -- 40 games, his 30 wins plus 10 games he lost.​
Frost -- 43 games, his 27 wins plus 16 games he lost.​

Ball counts by length of run* -- The total ball counts resulted from the following runs and fouls. Counts are given for Chohan first, then Frost, then the total.
1 ball -- 58 times, 60 times, 118 times​
2 balls -- 26, 30, 56​
3 balls -- 12, 13, 25​
4 balls -- 8, 12, 20​
5 balls -- 11, 7, 18​
6 balls -- 3, 4, 7​
7 balls -- 3, 3, 6​
8 balls -- 3, 5, 8​
9 balls -- 1, 0, 1​
Plus balls pocketed by opponent -- 27, 19, 46​
Minus fouls -- 34, 45, 79​
TOTAL ball count -- 298, 301, 599​
Average game score -- 8 - 2.8 for games won by Chohan, 8 - 2.1 for games won by Frost, 8 - 2.5 in total.​

Distribution of run-outs to win the games.* Counts are given for Chohan first, then Frost, then the total.
1 ball -- 11 times, 10 times, 21 times (37% of the 57 games)​
2 balls -- 9, 5, 14​
3 balls -- 1, 1, 2​
4 balls -- 2, 1, 3​
5 balls -- 2, 3, 5​
6 balls -- 0, 1, 1​
7 balls -- 2, 1, 3​
8 or 9 balls -- 3, 5, 8 (14%)​
Average (mean) "out" run -- 3.2 balls​
Average (median) "out" run -- 2 balls​

Distribution of lengths of games
Under 10 minutes -- 11 games (19% of the 57 games)​
10 - 19 min. -- 25​
20 - 29 min. -- 10​
30 - 59 min. -- 8​
60+ min. -- 3 (longest 77 min.)​
Total -- 57​

Match length (including racking and timeouts)
Day 1 -- 5 hours, 23 minutes​
Day 2 -- 9 hours, 54 min.​
Day 3 -- 6 hours, 58 min.​
Total -- 22 hours, 15 min.​

Average minutes per game
Day 1 -- 23.1 (approx. 20.9 not counting timeouts)​
Day 2 -- 25.8 (23.8)​
Day 3 -- 20.9 (18.2)​
Total -- 23.4 (21.1)​

*May contain a few inaccuracies caused by my occasional loss of attention.
Games won by breaker

Chohan -- 14 of 28 (50%)
Frost -- 13 of 29 (45%)
Total -- 27 of 57 (47%)

Anyone surprised?
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Conditions -- The conditions for this match included:
I'd also like to add, on day 1 both players were having a terrible time banking. The banks all seemed to come up short. Day 2 they started hitting their groove. Day 3 seemed like it must have been hotter and/or more humid in the room as both players were wiping sweat several times. It may have been the stress of competition, but I'm guessing it was temperature. Day 2 seemed to have some odd rolls on slow rolling, not sure if it was anything or I was over analyzing. Day 3 the table seemed to play beautiful. Some missed banks that I expected to drop, but probably more due to fatigue. If you're mind is operating at peak for 30-40 matches, sometimes you miss ;).

Great match overall, definitely one for the record books. Some very conservative play, some super aggressive play. The ebb and flow of the match was very pleasant to experience.
 

rwhite

New member
Games won by breaker

Chohan -- 14 of 28 (50%)
Frost -- 13 of 29 (45%)
Total -- 27 of 57 (47%)

Anyone surprised?
Time after time I find that the break is in fact not equal to a ball or ball and 1/2. I don’t know why people still say that.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Time after time I find that the break is in fact not equal to a ball or ball and 1/2. I don’t know why people still say that.
I agree....they’ve figured out the replies...it seems hard to gain an advantage off the best breaks.
I think they uses deliberate fouls more in the modern game.
 
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sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Has the one pocket break become less of an advantage than it used to be? My old friend Jimmy Fusco used to argue that spotting someone all the breaks was the equivalent of giving them 10-8. Of course, I really have no idea whether he was right, but if so, is this still true?

The last three big one pocket matches that I can think of were 1) the Derby City final between Thorpe and Hall, in which the breaker lost all five racks, 2) Chohan vs Filler, in which the breaker won 16 of the 37 racks contested, and now 3) Chohan vs Frost, in which the breaker won 27 out of 57 racks contested.

That's 100 racks played at one pocket's most elite level and the breaker won just 43 of them. I think most would agree that 100 racks is a large sample size. Is this an aberration or, quite possibly, have the top guys become more proficient at getting out of the break?

... and so, to the one-pocket gurus, I ask "What's going on here?"
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I posted this in a thread about 5 months ago:

The breaker-won-game percentage fluctuates quite a bit from event to event. Small numbers can produce atypical results. For the pro events I have watched (streamed matches only), it has ranged from 30% (a short race) to 84%.​

• For the 12 DCC and Southern Classic events from 2011-2020, the aggregate is 285 wins in 512 games = 56%.​
• For the 3 Accu-Stats Make-It-Happen 1-Pkt. events from 2015-2017, 146 of 243 = 60%.​
• For 3 1-Pkt. tournaments in 2018, 96 of 164 = 59%​
• For 8 challenge matches in 2018-2020, 144 of 283 = 51%​
Aggregating all 1,202 of those games from 26 events, the breaker won 56% (671 games), or about 5 wins for every 4 losses.​
For 6 challenge matches in 2020, 100 of 215 = 47%.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Wouldnt of thought day 2 had the longest matches while Tony went 11 and 1 at one point. Interesting. Looks the the break means very little in this match. Thanks for all the stats.
Tony started Day 2 winning 10 of the first 11 games. They averaged 30 min./game in that 11-game stretch because of 3 long games -- two at about 59 minutes and one at 73 minutes.
 

King T

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Has the one pocket break become less of an advantage than it used to be? My old friend Jimmy Fusco used to argue that spotting someone all the breaks was the equivalent of giving them 10-8. Of course, I really have no idea whether he was right, but if so, is this still true?

The last three big one pocket matches that I can think of were 1) the Derby City final between Thorpe and Hall, in which the breaker lost all five racks, 2) Chohan vs Filler, in which the breaker won 16 of the 37 racks contested, and now 3) Chohan vs Frost, in which the breaker won 27 out of 57 racks contested.

That's 100 racks played at one pocket's most elite level and the breaker won just 43 of them. I think most would agree that 100 racks is a large sample size. Is this an aberration or, quite possibly, have the top guys become more proficient at getting out of the break?

... and so, to the one-pocket gurus, I ask "What's going on here?"
Jimmy was a great guy and solid player. Jimmy was right about the break being a big spot when he and Grady and Strawberry and Paul Jones played, but the pockets were gigantic back then especially if they were playing on a Gandy, Kasson or Connelly.
Big pockets means no moving balls that are close to the pocket, no banking off the tit and its hard to stop a guy from shooting at his hole when it looks like a bucket.
 

kkdanamatt

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
We can all agree that the present game of top level one-pocket has embraced a more offensive oriented strategy than the up-table one-pocket game we saw in years past.
After the break, today's incoming player almost always escapes without damage.
In fact, today's incoming player often finds a "kick-combo-bank-carom-kiss" shot that not only erases the breaker's advantage, but may put the breaker in a very tough position.
Today's top-tier one-pocket shot-makers don't duck as much as the old-timers did.
That may also account for the break not having as much impact as it once did.
I have noticed that mid-level one-pocket matches are more often won by the breaker, because those players don't have top-tier knowledge and shot-making accuracy. They tend to duck.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
I posted this in a thread about 5 months ago:

The breaker-won-game percentage fluctuates quite a bit from event to event. Small numbers can produce atypical results. For the pro events I have watched (streamed matches only), it has ranged from 30% (a short race) to 84%.​

• For the 12 DCC and Southern Classic events from 2011-2020, the aggregate is 285 wins in 512 games = 56%.​
• For the 3 Accu-Stats Make-It-Happen 1-Pkt. events from 2015-2017, 146 of 243 = 60%.​
• For 3 1-Pkt. tournaments in 2018, 96 of 164 = 59%​
• For 8 challenge matches in 2018-2020, 144 of 283 = 51%​
Aggregating all 1,202 of those games from 26 events, the breaker won 56% (671 games), or about 5 wins for every 4 losses.​
For 6 challenge matches in 2020, 100 of 215 = 47%.
Thanks for that. Assume the DCC stats are for the stream table only. Challenge matches nearly always feature two elite players, so I'm wondering whether the break has become less of an edge when two giants match up. It does seem like the escape shots we are seeing from the most elite these days are better than we've ever seen before. Guess we'll have to see whether the latest trends continue. Great job as always with the stats.
 
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playonepocket

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A small, but notable consideration:

Players used to play if you make a ball on the break, you may continue shooting. The modern re-rack rule quit rewarding the breaker.
 

8cree

Sometimes they roll that way.
Silver Member
Games won by breaker

Chohan -- 14 of 28 (50%)
Frost -- 13 of 29 (45%)
Total -- 27 of 57 (47%)

Anyone surprised?
At their level of play, break isn't that big of a spot. The last couple of bigger 1P show downs have really shown that. For a player of my caliber, though, a few balls on a stronger opponent's break is still very welcomed and sometimes requested (y)
 

kollegedave

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Has the one pocket break become less of an advantage than it used to be? My old friend Jimmy Fusco used to argue that spotting someone all the breaks was the equivalent of giving them 10-8. Of course, I really have no idea whether he was right, but if so, is this still true?

The last three big one pocket matches that I can think of were 1) the Derby City final between Thorpe and Hall, in which the breaker lost all five racks, 2) Chohan vs Filler, in which the breaker won 16 of the 37 racks contested, and now 3) Chohan vs Frost, in which the breaker won 27 out of 57 racks contested.

That's 100 racks played at one pocket's most elite level and the breaker won just 43 of them. I think most would agree that 100 racks is a large sample size. Is this an aberration or, quite possibly, have the top guys become more proficient at getting out of the break?

... and so, to the one-pocket gurus, I ask "What's going on here?"
Stu,

Maybe it is worth "on average" 2 balls...maybe, but I think it is really more complicated than that. The two ball folklore is what I was told as well, and I do believe it is the prevailing wisdom.

I have learned the hard way about spotting someone the break.

The first thing to consider is that if you are spotting someone the break in a gambling match, they are very likely to improve their break during the match. Traditionally, one pocket requires alternating the break. Of course, when you don't alternate the break, the breaker shoots the break at twice the frequency he is accustomed to. What I discovered is that very shortly, I was looking at breaks that seemed nearly fatal, if not totally fatal, to my prospects at the outset. If this occurs, I would argue the break is worth more than 2 balls.

The second thing to consider, is that over time, maybe the break doesn't pose much advantage in examining the match between Frost and Chohan. I think it is fair to say that here we are examining pool played at nearly its highest level. Most players cannot break as good as Frost and Chohan and as consistently good as Frost and Chohan. What I mean to say, is that even weaker players, at times, break in a way where it poses such an advantage, that it is very difficult for even stronger players (but not Frosts or Chohans) to overcome. In my view, the break offers, in some cases, a chance for a player to gain a huge advantage in the game, but in most cases, most players will not break this well.

Maybe another way to think about this is as follows: If both players break well and alternatively, then it makes sense the advantages would basically even out. However, to the extent that a player does not break well, whilst another does, or where a player shoots consecutive breaks, I do not think the advantage of the break will even out. In fact, the break advantage may increase as the stronger breaker develops a greater advantage in the match.

Just my 0.02

kollegedave
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
We can all agree that the present game of top level one-pocket has embraced a more offensive oriented strategy than the up-table one-pocket game we saw in years past.
After the break, today's incoming player almost always escapes without damage.
In fact, today's incoming player often finds a "kick-combo-bank-carom-kiss" shot that not only erases the breaker's advantage, but may put the breaker in a very tough position.
Today's top-tier one-pocket shot-makers don't duck as much as the old-timers did.
That may also account for the break not having as much impact as it once did.
I have noticed that mid-level one-pocket matches are more often won by the breaker, because those players don't have top-tier knowledge and shot-making accuracy. They tend to duck.
that's a very true observation. i believe i had the same discussion with mr. helfert, probably as a response to the perennial contemporary players vs old timers debate. just watch any old match from 20-30 years ago, or watch a bunch of them, and you will see that the most common tactics after a successful break were purely defensive. one very common shot was drawing off a ball below the opponent's side pocket, down to his corner. you almost never see that shot today! instead they do a combination bank, sticking whitey in the stack, or something similarly aggressive. so the break stats don't surprise me, and imo pro one pocket is better and more exciting then ever before
 
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