The Arnold Palmer of Pool?

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
The recently started thread about kids being the future of pool got me thinking. Pool’s image is not comparable to that of golf, and yet, though it’s not widely publicized today, pro golf was a lot like pro pool once upon a time. In the 1950’s, the greatest in golf, including Hogan and Snead, always gambled with other golfers (many of them pro and many of them amateur) as a necessary means of supplementing their far-too-thin earnings from tournaments. It gave golfers a bit of a shady image. Golf then was like pool today, and had it remained that way, it might never have gained the following it has today.

One man deserves most of the credit for making golf completely respectable, and that would be Arnold Palmer. At tournaments, he spent a lot of his free time talking with the fans of the game and networking with many corporate executives, unlike his fellow pros who were more inclined to fraternize with each other. Between tournaments, he used to visit some of those he'd met for a friendly game of golf with no money riding on it, just to build goodwill in his sport. Most importantly, though, he sold his fellow pros on following his lead to revamp their image and make themselves far more attractive to corporate sponsors. A well-known story is how he sat Jack Nicklaus down in the early 60’s and read him the riot act. Jack was a grouchy fellow who found little time for either the fans or the corporate executives, and Palmer was getting upset about it. Jack just wanted to play golf. Arnold, however, realized in full that Nicklaus was a rising superstar whose behavior would be visible for many years to come, and warned Jack not to “undo all my hard work” by projecting the wrong image to the fans and the corporate sponsors. Jack was equal to the task, and changed his ways. In the end, most of those in his sport followed Arnold’s lead to the great benefit of their sport. Success took some time coming, but it came.

Tiger Woods has done more for junior golf than any player in history, but without Arnold Palmer, he’d have never gotten the stage that enabled him to have such an impact.

Is the sport we love on the right track? I hope so, but have my doubts. At the BCA Open in Vegas, which I attended, amateurs gambled with amateurs, amateurs gambled with pros, and pros gambled with pros. Some of the action took place on the bar tables at the tournament venue at the Riviera, some of it at the nearby Cue Club. The “action games”, most notably Immonen vs Pagulayan at the Cue Club (which could be viewed for free), a late night marathon match that took place while both remained in the draw of the men’s professional section of the BCA Open, generated as much talk as any of the matches in the BCA Open pro event. How many of us would pay to attend a golf tournament if we could watch for free the best competing for huge money the same weekend as the tournament? Another thing about the BCA Open was that a lot of cigarettes were smoked and an enormous amount of alcohol was consumed by the playing participants. The halls were horribly smoky, reminiscent of the poolrooms of the 1960’s, and would have turned off any potential sponsor, or at very least, led them to the conclusion that pool has yet to evolved past its “smoky” past.

It’s no surprise that pool has managed to have Camel cigarettes and Gordon’s Gin as two of its bigger sponsors in the last decade, and both of those pulled out when the financial going got tough. Golf has American Express and Cadillac, and numerous other high profile sponsors that sell primarily to the demographic that pool wants to attract. Sadly, pool will have to become respectable first, and there’s little evidence that respectability is on pool’s agenda.

I guess what I’m saying is that pool needs its Arnold Palmer figure real soon. Until that figure comes along, pool will not have the respectability that would make the emergence of a Tiger Woods type of figure even possible.
 
sjm said:
Tiger Woods has done more for junior golf than any player in history, but without Arnold Palmer, he’d have never gotten the stage that enabled him to have such an impact...

I thought it was Abe Lincoln!

-pigi :confused:
 
Nice post...and since Arnold Palmer there hasn't been another one like him to come out over all the years, other than Tiger. If pool doesn't get an Arnold Palmer type, then I guess it's going to have to be the way of a super hot body sultry type on the WPBA that can whuup ass and play lights out. Fact is Jeanette Lee has been the one, and to a certain degree Allison. I can't even start to tell you how many times I've had discussions with non-pool playing individuals and start telling them that I play pool, and the first thing out of their mouth is, "yeah...when I'm flipping channels and hit ESPN I always see this girl that's dressed in black who's super hot and can really play". Or, they'll say something about "the attractive blond girl" that can just run the tables. Recognition of the game to the non-pool playing general public seems to be coming more from the female side and a better impression is also coming from the way that they conduct themselves in tournaments, around crowds, and the public.
 
Okay, I gave this a lot of thought and here is what I came up with.

Greenleaf and mosconi then were the hogans and the like. Although mosconi did very little gambling if at all. In fact, he hated the sport. (don't argue, his words not mine). Then there was Fats. He was the poster child of pool and did it with very little class. While the lassiters and reds, and cranes were doing the real shooting he was running his mouth. Although he was likable, he was no champion.

Then came the miz. I think he was the closest thing to a palmer we had. He was classy, he had personality, and he was GOOD!.... People in the 80s that didn't even shoot pool knew who he was. I think if the color of money came out 5 years earlier he would have been able to make a better impact. But, when he retired, his legacy kinda just went away. We talk very little about him these days and it is a shame.

Then came Mike seigel. Didn't catch. He was good, and so was varner but they didn't attract many outside fans. Not like miz could.

Then came strickland. OH MY!!!!!!
Here is this player that treated pool like a championship sport. It was like an olympic sport to him and he had all the makings of a champion. And, my word. Nobody and I mean nobody shot straighter then he did. Ever. His offense was something that really would have attracted fans. He would break and run out in a minute flat. He would shoot the banks like they were nothing. Jump shots, three railers, caroms, you name it. only problem was: fans didn't like him. He could have done it easy, if he was just likable.

Then there is archer. He could do it if he was just promoted right. And lets talk about efren. Amazing, an argument could be made that he is one of the best to pick up a stick. Only problem is he doesn't speak english well. But, just look what he did for pool in the phillipines. Amazing.
 
sjm said:
It gave golfers a bit of a shady image. Golf then was like pool today, and had it remained that way, it might never have gained the following it has today.

Tell Michael Jordan how no pro golfers gamble any more, I am sure he will be amazed. He must have holes in his pockets.

Gambling does not ruin a sport image. In this day and age the squeaky clean family sport is doomed. We have murdering NFL players, cocaine addict hockey players, rapist NBA players, and guess what, these are the biggest sports in America and argueably the world (OK maybe soccer is huge, but do you even want to touch the image of THAT sport?). Every person that uses the "pools image is why it is not popular is totally blind and ignorant of sports today. Tennis is not popular because of Sampras, it was McEnroe that made it huge with his antics. We need a McEnroe, Strickland might have been it but where McEnroe pissed off and fought with the judges Strickland pisses off and fights with the fans, and that is a big difference. Poker is making it big today because of the glitz and the huge money, not in spite of it. Pool will be the same way. And no matter how many times I tell people this it just blows right over their heads.
 
there has to be a confluence of events. i don't know the full story of arnold palmer as you do, but certainly there had to be a supporting enviroment for AP's personality to make things happen. back then was a different time....TV was just starting to make strides into live sports. at that point, tv was providing a need to fill a void.

today, the public appetite for entertainment is well sated. so the entry level that pool faces is quite different than golf in the 60's. so besides fighting a debasing image, pool can't compete with all the other venues in TV programming. what pool faces today is "an old story", whereas golf and other sports in the early 60's had the benefit of a new story,,,,tv.

and the men in pool don't look healthy if you're looking for "image" :):)
 
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Pool has the distinction of being the most undermarketed sport on the planet. That is where it starts. Most of the industry manufacturing companies do not have the players in the commercials that I see. That doesn't change the fact that most people couldn't tell the difference between Crane and Caras, but they know who Jeanette Lee is (sort of). The industry does very little to promote the sport, the players, and the events. Compound that with the fact that pool gets a millisecond of exposure on ESPN, and then we have to watch the same thing over and over 35 times. There are many players that could fit into the "Palmer-esque" description, such as what Reyes has done for pool in The Phillipines(sp?). The problem still lies within the marketability of the sport. I remember the old Miller Lite commercials, as well as the commercial with the cross dressing players. Do you think the public can remember the cross dressers, or can they remember Mizerak?

The old argument that gambling brings the sport down is just plain nonsense. What brings down the sport is the fact that it is being run by people that have no business being in the billiard industry. A recent issue of Sports Illustrated said that "Billiards" was the most popular sport in New Mexico. I live just across the street in El Paso, yet I would have never known that. All I can figure is that they polled the people on league night. What was sad was that Jimmy Moore (BCA HOF who lived in Albuquerque for years) was never mentioned. Jimmy was one of my idols, and my vote for the Pool's Palmer.

Blackjack
 
sjm said:
The recently started thread about kids being the future of pool got me thinking. Pool’s image is not comparable to that of golf, and yet, though it’s not widely publicized today, pro golf was a lot like pro pool once upon a time. In the 1950’s, the greatest in golf, including Hogan and Snead, always gambled with other golfers (many of them pro and many of them amateur) as a necessary means of supplementing their far-too-thin earnings from tournaments. It gave golfers a bit of a shady image. Golf then was like pool today, and had it remained that way, it might never have gained the following it has today.

I have heard that the greatest in golf today, always wager with one another, not because they need to supplement their incomes but it is because of their competitive spirit. I know this to be true of many close to pro amateurs golfers on down to the “lets go hit some after work” golfers. I do not think gambling has hurt the image of pool.
A friend of mine told me the following and I tend to believe it. Back in the day before the depression, pool was a lot more popular than it is today and was considered a noble sport. If you look at pictures of pool halls back then, many were rather large and filled with men in business suits. When the depression hit we all know what happened; no jobs, no money, many soup kitchens. To feed and house the poor, just like today, you need a room. What were some of the biggest rooms back then? You got it, pool halls. Many pool halls were used to feed and house the poor. This is what helped stigmatize pool halls in a big way. No longer were pool hall filled with men in business suits playing a noble sport. They were filled with poor passing the time.
To play golf takes a lot more money than it does to play pool and many times (more so in the past) you have to belong to a country club to play golf. If you have people that play a sport that takes money to play and excludes people that don’t, well, many people like this image. And there is a lot of wagering going on in them their country clubs, don’t be fooled.
 
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sjm said:
The recently started thread about kids being the future of pool got me thinking. Pool’s image is not comparable to that of golf, and yet, though it’s not widely publicized today, pro golf was a lot like pro pool once upon a time. In the 1950’s, the greatest in golf, including Hogan and Snead, always gambled with other golfers (many of them pro and many of them amateur) as a necessary means of supplementing their far-too-thin earnings from tournaments. It gave golfers a bit of a shady image. Golf then was like pool today, and had it remained that way, it might never have gained the following it has today.

One man deserves most of the credit for making golf completely respectable, and that would be Arnold Palmer. At tournaments, he spent a lot of his free time talking with the fans of the game and networking with many corporate executives, unlike his fellow pros who were more inclined to fraternize with each other. Between tournaments, he used to visit some of those he'd met for a friendly game of golf with no money riding on it, just to build goodwill in his sport. Most importantly, though, he sold his fellow pros on following his lead to revamp their image and make themselves far more attractive to corporate sponsors. A well-known story is how he sat Jack Nicklaus down in the early 60’s and read him the riot act. Jack was a grouchy fellow who found little time for either the fans or the corporate executives, and Palmer was getting upset about it. Jack just wanted to play golf. Arnold, however, realized in full that Nicklaus was a rising superstar whose behavior would be visible for many years to come, and warned Jack not to “undo all my hard work” by projecting the wrong image to the fans and the corporate sponsors. Jack was equal to the task, and changed his ways. In the end, most of those in his sport followed Arnold’s lead to the great benefit of their sport. Success took some time coming, but it came.

Tiger Woods has done more for junior golf than any player in history, but without Arnold Palmer, he’d have never gotten the stage that enabled him to have such an impact.

Is the sport we love on the right track? I hope so, but have my doubts. At the BCA Open in Vegas, which I attended, amateurs gambled with amateurs, amateurs gambled with pros, and pros gambled with pros. Some of the action took place on the bar tables at the tournament venue at the Riviera, some of it at the nearby Cue Club. The “action games”, most notably Immonen vs Pagulayan at the Cue Club (which could be viewed for free), a late night marathon match that took place while both remained in the draw of the men’s professional section of the BCA Open, generated as much talk as any of the matches in the BCA Open pro event. How many of us would pay to attend a golf tournament if we could watch for free the best competing for huge money the same weekend as the tournament? Another thing about the BCA Open was that a lot of cigarettes were smoked and an enormous amount of alcohol was consumed by the playing participants. The halls were horribly smoky, reminiscent of the poolrooms of the 1960’s, and would have turned off any potential sponsor, or at very least, led them to the conclusion that pool has yet to evolved past its “smoky” past.

It’s no surprise that pool has managed to have Camel cigarettes and Gordon’s Gin as two of its bigger sponsors in the last decade, and both of those pulled out when the financial going got tough. Golf has American Express and Cadillac, and numerous other high profile sponsors that sell primarily to the demographic that pool wants to attract. Sadly, pool will have to become respectable first, and there’s little evidence that respectability is on pool’s agenda.

I guess what I’m saying is that pool needs its Arnold Palmer figure real soon. Until that figure comes along, pool will not have the respectability that would make the emergence of a Tiger Woods type of figure even possible.


YOUR GENERAL ASSESMENT OF PALMER IS CORRECT, HE WAS VOTED THE LEGEND OF THE 20TH CENTURY AND MUCH MORE LOVED THAN NICKLAUS. They were 10 yrs apart, they were not chums, they were fierce competitors. Nicklaus was killing AP every time they teeed it up. AP never sat fat jack down to help him, he hated the fat kids guts. Fat Jack was killing ap in 62, he never got his act together for another decade, where he lost his gut, began to smile and ditched the flat top and his attitude. AP had nothing to do with this, in fact by then, ap could not beat his meat. His days were then over. The people who molded JN were his managers, not his competitor. I do not know where you got this story, but I can assure you it is total bs. Some ghost writer hired by jn to rewrite history in his favor I would guess. That is not how it went down, I was there amigo, I do know.
 
Blackjack said:
The old argument that gambling brings the sport down is just plain nonsense. What brings down the sport is the fact that it is being run by people that have no business being in the billiard industry. A recent issue of Sports Illustrated said that "Billiards" was the most popular sport in New Mexico. I live just across the street in El Paso, yet I would have never known that. All I can figure is that they polled the people on league night. What was sad was that Jimmy Moore (BCA HOF who lived in Albuquerque for years) was never mentioned. Jimmy was one of my idols, and my vote for the Pool's Palmer.

Blackjack

There are lots of reasons our chosen sport doesn't grow. I'm afraid it is a collection of reasons that a lid is present.

If gambling was a true stigma on sports, jillions of people wouldn't know Chris MoneyMaker. But, they gather by the throngs around TV & the Casino's in Las Vegas to watch some guy behind SOLAR lensed glasses push out more money than they can even imagine. That event does cause some stirring of any spectator's heart & that scenario can be imagined by just about everyone. Knowledge of the consequences causes the emotions..

A low percentage of spectators ever get a stirring in their guts about a 6 Ball run for the U.S.Open (even a 3 ball run from a ball-in-hand deal) or a $2000 set, but a Pool Player can feel something of the emotional stress that might be stirring in the mind of the Shooter. Education of the Game of pool might be a critical factor to building a Player and/or Spectator base. If you can't feel what's happening, what would make you want to do it? A $20,000 Ring Game would get some attention around here (TULSA) from all the great players, wannabees & spectotors we have mingling around.

My father took me behind the lattice screen into Albert's Pool Hall at 13. He had been going there for some time to play Pool. Kids were not allowed. But on that day, the old man, ex-sheriff of the town, said bring him in,,,,, nodody's here. There they were... a dozen Pool Tables all lined in a Single Row. In those days the balls were always racked to entice folks to play. The Old man said sonny, can you shoot? I said "yes Mr. Albert, we have a little Pool Table at home". Albert set up the Rail Road Shot & asked if I would like to learn a trick shot. He stroked the ball, it bounced around the rails, up the Cue Sticks to the pocket & down the Cue Sticks the Cue ball went to pocket the a Ball in the Side Pocket. The old mane set up the shot & gave me the Cue..., My Dad said go ahead Son, you can do it. I stroked a few times & pulled the trigger. Away the cue ball went on it's way around the rails, then up the alley & down the Cue Sticks to make that Ball in the Side Pocket... my heart was beating fast & then CLICK, the magic happened & I was hooked for the rest of my life. Everything is about emotion.

There are differences between Pool & other Sports. FootBall, Baseball, Soccer, Hockey, Basketball all have stadiums for spectators to sit & watch. They have large rooms to shop in, they have large refreshment stands with lots to eat. But, folks won't hangout at the BaseBall Diamond or the FootBall Field if nothing is going on. They don't hang out at the Golf Course or Country Club when they are not playing, unless they're drinking or gambling. Some non-participating bums might hang at a Bowling Alley or a Pool Hall that's heated in the winter or cooled in the Summer to stay out of the elements, but the players & knowledgable spectators want to watch some action or they go home.

Maybe some of the growth problem is about having room for the spectators to watch some action. When the tournaments get down to 3 tables, 100 or more spectators cannot gather around 2-3 tables, so they go home. They are not part of the winning process, the Room Owner doesn't sell a few more beers & the game loses the emotional action packed FINALE to a dozen spectators.

When the public (sweaters) is continually restricted from freely watching these BIG GAMES around the country, they will get used to paying admission. JOBs in Nashville charged admission to the WPA event he sponsored in 2002. Having a monthly Professional MATCH in your own Pool Room with your local Sports Writer(s) present won't hurt things either. It would take time for the event(s) to gather some attention, but it would happen. Imagine Room Owners bidding for Players to Match UP at their Pool Room. The price of a Bourbon & Coke or a Budweiser just went up. (NOTICE of the MATCH is given to the concession vendors.. No Sponsorship JELLY, no sales). Wouldn't sales in the Pro Shop increase because some Pro writes his/her name on the Cue or Case. AND the Pro gets to market his Videos or Instruction Book. People have money in their pockets & they will spend it. You have to provide entertainment to get it.

Upscale Pool Rooms are making money in my area, the Billiard Palace in Tulsa just bought dozens of 9' Diamond Pros & dozens of Diamond Bar Boxes. They have a Tournament room to present the MATCH UP I described, but they DON"T do it. They don't even have a pro Shop anymore.

When the Professional Pool Players start making money for appearances, the Pool Rooms will make money from the Players & Spectators. Getting the sports writers involved isn't difficult. Invite them, introduce them like they were royalty (<<<no capitalized words), let them meet & mingle with the Elite Pros & they'll be glad to put the Event in the news.

I'll be back with more....
 
Way to go...

Nice ideas...CEEBEE...

I have been saying similar things for many years to any who would listen to my ravings. I have run over 500 tourneys and exhibitions (in many countries and cities) of all types and sizes and have tried many different formats and rules variations during these events...even the crazy ones like, crazy cue ball tournaments every April Fools Day!
Almost all participants have had good times at these events...except the "favorite few" who are used to getting the lions share of every pot. Spread the money out and many more will return.

I have always thought the key to having GREAT POOL... is to get a sponsor, such as COKE/ HERSHEYS, etc...(I WISH)..
If this could happen...here come the kids and $$$$$$$$.
...next...get a good player that is courteous/ amiable/ personality and of course...have Great Skill and he needs a sponsor like COKE/ HERSHEYS!!!

Minnesota Fats was good player, not a great player... yes, he did promote himself, but he did get Mongomery Wards, Sears, and a few other corporations to pay him to promote "their" companies..which he did in a good way (I watched him give a few of these shows in the stores and everyone seemed to have a good time).
He was courteous to all, signed autographs, told lotsa stories, and I even saw a few spectators buy products.

The thing that "our" pros need to understand ... they are performers!!!
> just like the players in the NFL/NBA/MLB, etc. The average players/spectators love to watch those who have skills that they themselves may never be able to use..in all sports.
They need to promote themselves...everywhere they go, dress well, carry photos with bios and sign autographs.
They must treat the game and their skills like Professionals.
They will be rewarded.
.....so will we...
 
ceebee said:
There are lots of reasons our chosen sport doesn't grow. I'm afraid it is a collection of reasons that a lid is present.

If gambling was a true stigma on sports, jillions of people wouldn't know Chris MoneyMaker. But, they gather by the throngs around TV & the Casino's in Las Vegas to watch some guy behind SOLAR lensed glasses push out more money than they can even imagine. That event does cause some stirring of any spectator's heart & that scenario can be imagined by just about everyone. Knowledge of the consequences causes the emotions..
....

There's a difference: The World Series of Poker does not really involve "gambling" per se. It's more of a prize being awarded to the winning player. If you consider the entry fees players pay to enter the tournament, then okay, they're gambling (in the same sense that pool tournaments would be "gambling", but we pool players don't think of tournaments as gambling). The public still thinks of pool players as low-lifes that gamble their rent and food money away. That's an exaggeration, but not much of one.

I think we need another movie like The Color of Money to bring organized pool into the public eye . There's a new book out titled "Stroke - A Novel" by Carlos Ledson Miller, by Redbud Publishing, that tells the story of a 20-something female pool player's entry into the sport and rise through gritty pool halls and amateur leagues to the pro circuit. It's a great story with lots of elements that would make a good movie. I think the American public just doesn't know much about pool beyond movies like TCOM and Poolhall Junkies. TCOM some tournament play in it, but it wasn't the thrust of the movie. We need a new movie that shows things like they really are, both amateur leagues and the pro circuit. Have a number of the top players, male and female, appear in it and get their names out there. We have some pretty colorful people in the sport. The American public just needs to get to know them and what they're all about.
 
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