The Deflection Battle Heats Up!

Colin Colenso

Colin Colenso

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hey Guys,
The 2nd Edition of CueZine www.cuezine.com is out.

Among the articles is one on 'What Makes a Good Cue?' http://www.top147.com/magazine/2004002/2004002060802374865.htm

The approach is not heated for a change. I want to present all opinions and arguments as best I can.

This article will be first in a series which will investigate the many claims and theories goind around.

In coming weeks I will provide reasoning, supported with graphics to try to show why some popular concepts are not adequate to explain what is going on with deflection.

I look forward to all your feedback.
 
Predator shaft is discussed but not butts?
Then, why only Predator?
You're gonna have some heated discussions for sure.
It's going to be interesting.
 
Joseph Cues said:
Predator shaft is discussed but not butts?
Then, why only Predator?
You're gonna have some heated discussions for sure.
It's going to be interesting.
Click to expand...
It's not going to be all about predator. I just added a pic of their cue as an example of the things that are being tried. In fact, I think the explanation given by predator, regarding the cue deflecting rather than the ball is ill founded.

The articles are not likely to get much into butts. I'll leave the art to the art experts;-) I don't begrudge anyone the right to want beautiful cues, but I seek functionality, and so most discussion will be focused on where I think the keys to cue performance are.

I've had some discussions here about the cause of deflection being related to grip. It has been very difficult to explain my position in text, so future articles will include diagrams that will clearly show the theory I have developed.

Not much has been said so far, but stay tuned for updates. I guarantee it will be food for thought:)
 
The articles are not likely to get much into butts. I'll leave the art to the art experts;-) I don't begrudge anyone the right to want beautiful cues, but I seek functionality, and so most discussion will be focused on where I think the keys to cue performance are.
Click to expand...
Colin, I think it should be called Shaft discussion then.
I hate to disagree with the notion that the butts of cues do not have much functionality.
Badly made butts equal to bad cue no matter what shaft is used imo.
 
I think somebody should do a real shaft test and put a predator shaft on a broomstick butt:D
 
Joseph Cues said:
Colin, I think it should be called Shaft discussion then.
I hate to disagree with the notion that the butts of cues do not have much functionality.
Badly made butts equal to bad cue no matter what shaft is used imo.
Click to expand...
There is always going to be some level of disagreement on this issue.

Some evidence may be provided by guys winning a tourney with a broom handle butt, or by testing with a robot to measure deflection with various butts from top of the range to balsa wood with concrete insert.

Even if deflection results show that the butts make minimal difference, there will be those who talk about feel of the cue when it hits etc. But these things cannot be tested until they can be defined.

I know for me personally, I can put decent tip on a $5 rack cue and it hardly effects my game once I've spent 10 minutes with the cue.

Still, for top level play, we should aim to have the best equipment from head to toe, so I'm open for well explained ideas on how the butt end effects performance.
 
Great post. I must admit that I am a major pain in the backside when it comes to deflection and different levels of deflection. Mr. Colenso, if I may ask. What kind of shaft do you play with and prefer.
 
Joseph Cues said:
Colin, are you going to review shafts/cues on deflection characteristics alone?
Click to expand...

Joseph,
Perhaps the name of the original article "What makes a good cue?" is overly broad. But it makes a good headline.

As the series continues, I will focus in on the issues concerning deflection and grip. This is a strong area of interest and I do have some new and revolutionary ideas regarding this area.

But I want to branch into all areas of the cue, such as shaft rigidity, spine, joints, butts, wraps, shock absorbers, weight distribution and whatever else people want to consider in a cue.

I would appreciate hearing any of your ideas and would consider articles based around them.

I want to present the various ideas of experts in the field. There will be contrary ideas that cannot be solved. Proof is not always available, but readers should know of the opinions going around and have a chance to measure them up against whatever evidence is available.

One example is the shaft flex issue. We have predator claiming their shaft is designed to deflect away from the cue. This would suggest that a whippy shaft is preferable. On the other hand, the Meucci dot is placed so as to take advantage of the anisotropic qualities of the maple grain, ensuring that the shaft plays more stiffly.

But on what theories are their ideas based? That is what needs to be asked. What testing has been done to support either theory? I believe it is just opinion. Though myself and others believe through playing experience that they can get more grip and less deflection from a stiffer shaft. Still, this isn't proof, as others claim the opposite from their experience.

But when I examine what is really going on at the tip-ball interface and explain this, it will give us some insights into the true role shafts, joints, butts, shock absorbers are playing in collision between the tip and the ball and the effect on spin and deflection.

Sorry for the long post which flowed off course:)
 
((VH)) said:
I think somebody should do a real shaft test and put a predator shaft on a broomstick butt:D
Click to expand...


It's already been done, except with a Meucci black dot shaft. If you call their 800 number they'll send you a video for free as they test a broomstick with a black dot along with all of the major name production cues out there.
 
Michael Webb said:
Great post. I must admit that I am a major pain in the backside when it comes to deflection and different levels of deflection. Mr. Colenso, if I may ask. What kind of shaft do you play with and prefer.
Click to expand...
Michael,
A debate without passion is harldy worth debating. So long as the passion is directed towards finding the truth.

By the way, no need to be so formal, call me Colin until I get into some hall of fame;-)

My background is mainly English Pool and Snooker, with a few years now on the huge pocket US tables. I have always prefered stiff maple shafts over the Ash which is common in Australia. I used dufferin for years and now use a custom made maple with ebony butt by Klein Cues, Australia.
 
drivermaker said:
It's already been done, except with a Meucci black dot shaft. If you call their 800 number they'll send you a video for free as they test a broomstick with a black dot along with all of the major name production cues out there.
Click to expand...

Actually, you can see the results of that broomstick test here:
http://www.meuccicues.com/blackdot-chart.htm

But I find their testing hard to believe.

Predator has their own testing too:
http://www.predatorcues.com/english/314Z.htm

It reminds me of the line from an old Dire Straights song "Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong".

The industry is in dire need of some independent testing, that is for sure.

I actually think the broomstick butt would deflect less than most shafts as it it lighter and would have some small effect on reducing the end mass of the tip. At least this would be consistant with the generally accepted theory on end mass/deflection correlation.

Note that I am not in complete agreement with this theory.
 
Colin Colenso said:
I actually think the broomstick butt would deflect less than most shafts as it it lighter and would have some small effect on reducing the end mass of the tip. At least this would be consistant with the generally accepted theory on end mass/deflection correlation.
Click to expand...


It may be more than just the weight, I don't know the answer. However, in the video, Bob Meucci indicated that the butt also has something to do with deflection in addition to the shaft based on the rigidity/flexibility of the butt itself. Too stiff a butt and you also get more deflection. How he builds flexibility into a butt, or why some butts are more rigid than other production cues or custom cues is a mystery to me. He has done a tremendous amount of independent testing.
 
Colin Colenso said:
In coming weeks I will provide reasoning, supported with graphics to try to show why some popular concepts are not adequate to explain what is going on with deflection.

I look forward to all your feedback.
Click to expand...

Colin,

I have a Tim Scruggs custom. The balance feels perfect. Someone, I will not mention who, said just put a predator or meucci on that butt. My response was that the lighter shaft would mess up the balance.

I have heard, and anyone can correct me here if I did not understand correctly, that deflection comes into play more with hard hits, swerve comes into play with soft hits. If that is correct, since I am a medium hitter on most of my shots, then deflection does not affect my play that much.

I used to use a predator, for about a year. Then I got the scruggs and did not see one iota of decrease in accuracy but saw a big increase in the quality of balance and cleaner stroke.

But, if it is true that deflection is more of a factor for hard hitters, then I can see why some hard hitting players and especially trick shot folks would be especially concerned about deflection.

Laura
 
Reflection on Deflection

You know, guys, I don't think it really matters. Back when Mosconie made his high run, what kind of cue was he using? What kind of shaft? That was before all this " New Technology ". It's not that I am not interested in all this, but what differance does it really make. You find me a wand that " I " can run 526 balls with and I will buy it. Buddy Hall tore em a new one with a house cue all the time. Mosconi used a broom handle one time and ran everybody out of the room. Does this tell you anything? Do you think they gave a lot of thought to deflection? You either got it or you don't. JMHO
Your Friend, Don P.
Your time would be better spent practicing and playing. ;)
 
drivermaker said:
It may be more than just the weight, I don't know the answer. However, in the video, Bob Meucci indicated that the butt also has something to do with deflection in addition to the shaft based on the rigidity/flexibility of the butt itself. Too stiff a butt and you also get more deflection. How he builds flexibility into a butt, or why some butts are more rigid than other production cues or custom cues is a mystery to me. He has done a tremendous amount of independent testing.
Click to expand...

Drivermaker,
I'd like to know exactly what Bob Meucci does have to say about the how the butt effects deflection.

I'd like to hear from anyone on this actually.

In fact, what advantages can a good butt have over a cheap butt at all?
 
Bluewolf said:
Colin,

I have a Tim Scruggs custom. The balance feels perfect. Someone, I will not mention who, said just put a predator or meucci on that butt. My response was that the lighter shaft would mess up the balance.

I have heard, and anyone can correct me here if I did not understand correctly, that deflection comes into play more with hard hits, swerve comes into play with soft hits. If that is correct, since I am a medium hitter on most of my shots, then deflection does not affect my play that much.

I used to use a predator, for about a year. Then I got the scruggs and did not see one iota of decrease in accuracy but saw a big increase in the quality of balance and cleaner stroke.

But, if it is true that deflection is more of a factor for hard hitters, then I can see why some hard hitting players and especially trick shot folks would be especially concerned about deflection.

Laura
Click to expand...
Laura,
According to Ron Shepard's famous paper:
http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf

Which I believe is pretty much the accepted line of thought among theorists, the cue speed has little if anything to do with deflection.

I disagree with his theory though. Actually, I believe Ron has made some major errors in his report and these have led to several erroneous conclusions. These are what I will be discussing in future article.

According to my theory, yes, hard hitting will lead to more deflection. Anyone who hits a lot of hard shots with side will feel this makes more sense.

Swerve will take effect moreso on soft shots, but only if your cue is elevated. Unless you are playing on a table with a napped cloth, as they do in English snooker and pool, then you've got all kinds of swerving going on. That's another area that I will explain soon at cuezine. The first time the nap effect will have been explained.

If you are not a power shooter who likes to rip into balls with heavy amounts of english, then you won't have to worry much about deflection.

You may notice it most with long shots that require running side with follow to get the cue ball back around the table. On this shot, a lower deflection cue would make things easier to judge. But with practice, you can get used to the cue you're using I'm sure.
 
Donald A. Purdy said:
You know, guys, I don't think it really matters. Back when Mosconie made his high run, what kind of cue was he using? Your Friend, Don P.
Your time would be better spent practicing and playing. ;)
Click to expand...

Don,
This is very true in many ways.

If I could create a zero deflection cue out of thin air, it would hardly make any difference to the level of most peoples games.

Practicing is where the big gains are made. And guys can adjust to their own cues, even if they deflect a bit more.

That said, for some guys like me, who always want to take on the big shot that requires loaded up amounts of english with follow or draw, playing with a high deflection cue makes consistancy hard to achieve.

I feel it is a valuable strength to feel confident in playing these advanced shots. Better equipment is going to help me and others like me get even more satisfaction out of the game. So that's enough of an excuse to persue this:-)

But I think we are only part way there. There really has been very little progress made so far. Not since the leather tip and chalk anyway.

I hope to change that in coming years.
 
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