Thoughts About Ralph Greenleaf And Alcoholism

[haystj]

I grew up playing in an old pool hall in Los Angeles where many an old timer played, One old player told me Greenleaf played him eight no count one pocket and he never won. He also told me Ralph was never sober during that time which was directly after WW11 around 1946-47. He told me many a player had to take Ralph back to his hotel room due to his drunkedness and tuck him in. Ralph was so revered by his fellow pool players that he never had to worry about getting robbed or left homeless as they took care of him. Lastly, Ralph was the best looking man to ever have worn a suit and tie.

How in the hell can someone perform at that gear drunk?

Blows my mind away that something requiring such exacting precision can be executed inebriated.

 

[Scott Lee]

I believe that is a character from the Lord of the Rings( a movie and book if unfamiliar) my old lady talked me into watching it a few weeks ago, snooze fest IMO, I made it about an hour. Surprised it is one of the most popular movie franchises in history.

This was an interesting thread.

Snooker Theory...You're correct, that character is Gollum, originally a human man, but changed by having possession of the "One ring" for something like 500 years (possession of the ring stops aging, among other things). Me...I love JRR Tolkien, and have read the books a half dozen times over the past 60 years, and seen all the movies numerous times. Call me a fan.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

 

[kling&allen]

How in the hell can someone perform at that gear drunk?

Blows my mind away that something requiring such exacting precision can be executed inebriated.

I think that's the best part of his story. That despite everything he faced, alcoholism, divorces, foreclosures, public humiliation, etc, he never quit and always kept playing (and mostly winning). And he did so while making friends everywhere he went.

 

[Slide Rule]

How in the hell can someone perform at that gear drunk?

Blows my mind away that something requiring such exacting precision can be executed inebriated.

He may have discovered a system or had insights that others lack.

 

[haystj]

He may have discovered a system or had insights that others lack.

A system like CTE/Pro 1?

 

[Black-Balled]

How in the hell can someone perform at that gear drunk?

Blows my mind away that something requiring such exacting precision can be executed inebriated.

You lived in the arl area a few decades earlier, you'd have had the opportunity to see it first hand.

How can it be done? I have no idea, but I guess the game must not be quite as hard as we think it is.

 

[Ghosst]

I don't know what would help them. It would take people more intelligent than me.
It's one thing for an inherent loser to throw everything away...., but it's a whole different thing when your throw greatness away and Ralph was truly great.

Interesting thought that unless one is a professional athlete they can not be great. Perhaps it was just poor wording but that statement reeks of better-than-thou. You've no idea what people's talents might be. Something as simple as being a good father is great. Pool is just a hobby.

 

[alstl]

A lot of the information about Greenleaf isn't true. He didn't die homeless and made good money in his final years giving exhibitions. He won an antitrust lawsuit against Brunswick in 1948 and Brunswick's corporate response (to defame Ralph) is the source of a lot of misinformation. He was certainly an alcoholic and died of complications from it in 1950.

1936 was Ralph's bad year where he went bankrupt and then disappeared. But after that unfortunate event he reunited with his exwife and retured to glory in 1937-1939.

This month's Billiard Buzz magazine had an article I wrote on his earlier years. Next month will cover his missing years in the mid 30s. My book should be out next year in the event anyone is interested in more details.

Hack Wilson might the the most pitiful when it comes to sports figures who lost everything due to alcohol. Still holds the record for most RBI's in a season.

Hack Wilson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[HawaiianEye]

Agreed. The book is a passion project. I'll give it away for free (ebook) or near cost (paperback). There are 10 people in the world interested in this topic, but I like history and wanted to fill a gap in the record.

I am interested.

 

[Scott Lee]

I am interested.

Me too...

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

 

[ShootingArts]

He may have discovered a system or had insights that others lack.

How in the hell can someone perform at that gear drunk?

Blows my mind away that something requiring such exacting precision can be executed inebriated.

We have all heard of chemical players, alcohol is just another chemical. Not proud of it but I drank heavily in my peak pool years. When sober I played a more aggressive style and hit balls harder. After drinking awhile I hit softer and smoothed out the jaggedness of my play sober. I was as good or a better player drinking, just that change in styles. I eventually recognized this and smoothed out my play sober.

Neither Scotty or I were ever anywhere near Greenleaf's level but Scotty Townsend made a living gambling for decades and took down countless tournaments. Saw him here and there for many years. Never saw him sloppy drunk despite taking in huge quantities of alcohol, never saw him sober either. One tournament he was getting around a fifth or quart of hard liquor, he won, another one he was keeping count of beer he had drank at that tournament for some reason. The count was 72 early Sunday. He hadn't slacked up when I left late Sunday and he was still in the tournament. He finished first or second in that regional level tournament drawing players from across the gulf coast and a few other states. I wouldn't bet he drank a hundred beers, but I wouldn't bet he didn't drink ninety in that roughly sixty hours including time not playing in the tournament.

Hu

 

[pt109]

We have all heard of chemical players, alcohol is just another chemical. Not proud of it but I drank heavily in my peak pool years. When sober I played a more aggressive style and hit balls harder. After drinking awhile I hit softer and smoothed out the jaggedness of my play sober. I was as good or a better player drinking, just that change in styles. I eventually recognized this and smoothed out my play sober.

Neither Scotty or I were ever anywhere near Greenleaf's level but Scotty Townsend made a living gambling for decades and took down countless tournaments. Saw him here and there for many years. Never saw him sloppy drunk despite taking in huge quantities of alcohol, never saw him sober either. One tournament he was getting around a fifth or quart of hard liquor, he won, another one he was keeping count of beer he had drank at that tournament for some reason. The count was 72 early Sunday. He hadn't slacked up when I left late Sunday and he was still in the tournament. He finished first or second in that regional level tournament drawing players from across the gulf coast and a few other states. I wouldn't bet he drank a hundred beers, but I wouldn't bet he didn't drink ninety in that roughly sixty hours including time not playing in the tournament.

Hu

It just struck me...being not much of a drinker, I never understood how one could perform well under the influence.
For me, alcohol is a depressant....makes me want to chill or sleep.
But I suspect now that for many drinkers, their relationship with alcohol changes and doesn’t resemble my experience with it.
After all, I drink coffee by the gallon...unlike many, I can drink five coffees and then go to bed and sleep soundly.
I have friends that won’t drink a coffee after 11 AM...or they can’t sleep at night.

 

[haystj]

We have all heard of chemical players, alcohol is just another chemical. Not proud of it but I drank heavily in my peak pool years. When sober I played a more aggressive style and hit balls harder. After drinking awhile I hit softer and smoothed out the jaggedness of my play sober. I was as good or a better player drinking, just that change in styles. I eventually recognized this and smoothed out my play sober.

Neither Scotty or I were ever anywhere near Greenleaf's level but Scotty Townsend made a living gambling for decades and took down countless tournaments. Saw him here and there for many years. Never saw him sloppy drunk despite taking in huge quantities of alcohol, never saw him sober either. One tournament he was getting around a fifth or quart of hard liquor, he won, another one he was keeping count of beer he had drank at that tournament for some reason. The count was 72 early Sunday. He hadn't slacked up when I left late Sunday and he was still in the tournament. He finished first or second in that regional level tournament drawing players from across the gulf coast and a few other states. I wouldn't bet he drank a hundred beers, but I wouldn't bet he didn't drink ninety in that roughly sixty hours including time not playing in the tournament.

Hu

This is fascinating to me, and one of the more interesting threads I have read in a long time, so thanks to the OP

This response is really interesting.

I find that when I play golf, a couple of beers helps me loosen up and not be so "mechanical" with my swing. I stop worrying about my swing and become more of a "feel" player.

Everything goes great right up to the point when I have my "perfect alcohol amount + 1 beer" and then the smooth swing gets a bit too sloppy.
I'm not talking about getting inebriated but my point is there is a very fine line there for me.

What is absolutely fascinating to me is the idea (fact) of someone getting so drunk they need help getting home (or help for anything in general) and still able to hit the top gear playing pool. My head explodes thinking about it.

Can you imagine Lewis Hamilton getting wasted and then winning a Formula 1 race?

It's hard for me to understand it, but I really enjoy thinking about it.

 

[jb134]

I can't believe how mainstream drinking is. As was pointed out alcohol is just one of many different behaviors that can be destructive. There is a big difference in terms of it being socially encouraged.

In the 20 years I worked corporate jobs there were always a string of 'team building' type of events. Either holiday get togethers, celebratory dinners, big conventions, etc. Always, at the end of the business day when the food was served it was expected that everyone start drinking. Those on the team who were the most out of control were glorified. The next day people would show off pictures and relive who sang the worst karaoke or who was slurring and falling down the most.

I don't enjoy drinking more than one drink and always felt extremely out of place. People would heckle me and plead with me to just go with it and have some fun. You know those videos about peer pressure in middle school where everyone rolls their eyes and says "It doesn't happen like that, people don't just say 'C'mon man, everyone's doing it!'"? Well, that's exactly how it is.

You don't see this with any other addiction. Sure, people get together and go gamble, or do different drugs, or whatever. But alcohol is the one that is backed by every family gettogether, every corporate event, every major sporting event (live or when friends watch the game), to every barbeque.

I have no problem with a drink now and then and think it's fine to loosen up every now and again and celebrate our lives together. But for many people it stopped being celebratory a long time ago. And what's disappointing is it feels like society expects it to be that way.

This is fascinating to me, and one of the more interesting threads I have read in a long time, so thanks to the OP

This response is really interesting.

I find that when I play golf, a couple of beers helps me loosen up and not be so "mechanical" with my swing. I stop worrying about my swing and become more of a "feel" player.

Everything goes great right up to the point when I have my "perfect alcohol amount + 1 beer" and then the smooth swing gets a bit too sloppy.
I'm not talking about getting inebriated but my point is there is a very fine line there for me.

What is absolutely fascinating to me is the idea (fact) of someone getting so drunk they need help getting home (or help for anything in general) and still able to hit the top gear playing pool. My head explodes thinking about it.

Can you imagine Lewis Hamilton getting wasted and then winning a Formula 1 race?

It's hard for me to understand it, but I really enjoy thinking about it.

I can imagine Lewis Hamilton getting wasted and winning a F1 race. As proven at the weekend it's 99 car.

 

[jb134]

Greenheaf was quite simply a high functioning alcoholic. There are lots and lots of them. There are even more functional alcoholics out there working in banks and raising kids and doing all sorts of things. A small number even manage to function for a normal lifespan. Most do not.

The major issue for me with perception of alcoholism. Forgive me here but my examples are UK based. We worship and our kids worship the likes of Alex Higgins and George Best. We do not show the same level of devotion to the likes of Bobby Charlton or Steve Davis. Who achieve more, accomplish more, ruin less lives, treat people better and guess what, live to old age.

In short we put high functioning alcoholics on a pedestal for ourselves and our kids when statistically more people will be taken by alcohol than will benefit from it.

 

[Slide Rule]

A system like CTE/Pro 1?

With the ease that he shot while inebriated, something better.
It could be hit a million balls, but focusing while under makes that difficult.
If you had a system in the 20s, or during the depression, would it have been passed around?
That is doubtful. If those matches meant eating or not eating, you would be quiet.

I have tried CTE, but it has its limits for me. Everything up to 5 diamonds in shot length works
great, but the very long shots are misses. A local guy showed me the basics but I see he left
something out. That was standard practice at Glass City Billiards. Those that had something pat
would leave a part out. Joe Thomas was famous for that. What was shown was helpful but not an
answer.

 

[Slide Rule]

You lived in the arl area a few decades earlier, you'd have had the opportunity to see it first hand.

How can it be done? I have no idea, but I guess the game must not be quite as hard as we think it is.

Pool greats see things the rest of us will never see.

 

[Slide Rule]

Agreed. The book is a passion project. I'll give it away for free (ebook) or near cost (paperback). There are 10 people in the world interested in this topic, but I like history and wanted to fill a gap in the record.

I am interested.
Slide Rule

 

[sparkle84]

A system like CTE/Pro 1?

NFW. It was TOI without a doubt.

 

[DynoDan]

A lot of the information about Greenleaf isn't true. He didn't die homeless and made good money in his final years giving exhibitions.

I’m curious then, how he ended up buried in his small home town, and with no headstone?