Three years later, I can't get the pendulum stroke right.

arsenius

Nothing ever registers...
Silver Member
//Crossposted from the main forum. Thanks sfleinen

For the last three years, I have been struggling to use the pendulum stroke.

I can execute the stroke itself and I understand the theory behind it. When I finish my stroke, my tip stops around the same position on the table every time. My stroke arm (right arm) is approximately 90 degrees when it hits the ball.

The problem I am having is getting my head, eyes, shoulder, elbow, bridge hand and cue comfortably on the same line. My head is constantly getting pushed over to the right of the shot line. When I try to bring my head back over to the left, I can't do it without pushing my cue off the shot line. I don't know why, but I can't setup in a way that my head has much range of motion (At least, not in the direction that I need. I could shoot with my left ear over the cue if I wanted to...).

Typically, I end up compromising, with both my eyes and cue on wrong lines. The worst of both worlds. As a result, I now miss balls completely on the wrong side. I actually cut to the left when I want to go right, and vice versa! It's either in the hole, or into the rail. I hardly rattle anymore, because I'm so far off when I miss.

The really terrible thing, though, is that I do sometimes get it right. Usually about once a month I'll make a little change and get lined up and I can't miss for maybe 20 minutes to an hour. After that I will try to figure out what I was doing right, in order to copy it, but inevitably when I come back to the poolhall next time, I'm back to my old ways. It's not like before though, when I would get into dead stroke years ago. I'm not wondering why I'm not in dead punch all the time.

The unsurprising result of this problem is that I am incredibly inconsistent. I miss really, really easy shots all of a sudden. Doing drills doesn't help, because I don't know what to change in order to fix my alignment. I either bend over and it all lines up, or it doesn't, but I don't know why. Even though I recognize that I'm not lined up properly, when I get back up, reset and bend over again, things are still out of line.

I've used Joe's Third Eye and Laser Trainer. I use Gene's Perfect Aim system (which has helped a lot, because at least it gives me something to concentrate on, even if the shot appears bizarre to my eyes). But in spite of these tools, I can't seem to get lined up straight. As an example, I used the third eye and laser trainer today, just to do up downs. Even with a laser, I couldn't get lined up to consistently hit the ball up and down the table without significant wobble.

Has anybody experienced this before? I don't know what else to do. It's so frustrating, because I never had these problems when I shot naturally. I just lined up my eyes, and the cue went straight by itself. Now it's far too late to go back to my old style. I have no idea what that was at this point.
 
In reading your post Arsenius, I do not understand why the pendulum stroke is causing problems. You describe stance and alignment and even sight picture but I can not understand how the pendulum stroke is preventing you from lining up the shot correctly. As I understand what you've written above you aren't even stroking the cue and that your issues are related to your alignment and attaining the proper sight picture.
So, can you explain how the pendulum stroke is causing these problems?

Thanks,
 
The really terrible thing, though, is that I do sometimes get it right. Usually about once a month I'll make a little change and get lined up and I can't miss for maybe 20 minutes to an hour. After that I will try to figure out what I was doing right, in order to copy it, but inevitably when I come back to the poolhall next time, I'm back to my old ways. It's not like before though, when I would get into dead stroke years ago. I'm not wondering why I'm not in dead punch all the time.

The unsurprising result of this problem is that I am incredibly inconsistent. I miss really, really easy shots all of a sudden.

The ball address is key to alignment in your set position.

Start your ball address standing straight with your eyes on the shot line. Narrow your focus to keeping your eyes aligned with the shot line, and landing your cue on the shot line as you address the cue ball. Allow your body to move however it wants to, as you address the the cue ball and keep your eyes and cue aligned with the shot line.

I suspect that you will find your problem disappears and you consistently are making shots.
 
Tim...The pendulum swing is a very natural movement, once you understand the dynamics of it. I'm not sure why you're having so much trouble with the pendulum stroke, but Mark Avlon's advice is very good, and something you should look at. Have you reviewed your video from your lesson in the past couple of years? Might be worth a look. I get an awful lot of students who fail to review their video (after initially watching it); call or email me about a problem; I tell them to review the video, and the answer is usually right there.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
Thanks for your reply dr9ball,

The reason I blame the pendulum stroke is because my problems started since I began using it! That's not the only reason though, and I'll explain more below. Also, I'm not blaming the motion of the stroke, but rather the setup required to execute it.

You are right, my problems do often start before stroking the cue. Some days and some shots I feel I can't even get close to the right line, visually. I think this is partially a result of having struggled so long, though. I don't know which way is up anymore, as it were.

Why do I blame the stroke? Because almost always, I can't execute it while having the cue come out from under my head where I want it to. Either it comes out from my head too far to the left, or it comes out at an angle not parallel to my eyes. Or if I contort (i.e. I can't just turn easily) my neck to get it to come out in the right place, it becomes painful to shoot.

Take for example what happens when I do up downs. This should take the sighting picture out of the equation.

The tables I play on have points all the way around the table, no "Brunswick Plates." I place a doughnut sticker on the spot using a laser, and double check the setup. It's as straight as anybody is going to get it. So if I setup properly, my cue should be directly over the diamond, pointed at the opposite diamond. I can really lock things in by putting a piece of chalk on both sides of the diamond, with just enough room for the butt of the cue.

When I try to do up downs with this setup, the only way I have been able to make the cue stay straight consistently, the only way I can avoid moving those two pieces of chalk, is by allowing my head to float to the right of the cue. This distorts my sight picture significantly, of course. When I try to move my head back to the left (or if I try to keep my head to the left as I bend over, same difference), I have some sort of limited range of motion in my neck. I can't simply turn my head to get my right eye closer to the cue, and I end up moving my body a little bit. Or, if I try to move my shoulder around to adjust the cue position, I lose my ability to stroke straight. I think what happens is that my elbow and shoulder end up on a different plane from my shot.

Another example, is if I use a mirror. Again, I am really careful to ensure that I am stroking straight in front of the mirror (I have a method for setting this up, but it's tricky to explain in text). When I look at where the cue is coming out from under my head, it may be directly under my chin. But it isn't coming out straight, it's coming out at an angle across my vision. Again, if I try to adjust to make it come out straight by moving my hand or shoulder to a better position, my cue will start to move crookedly.

I hope these two examples illustrate why I am blaming the stroke. Before I learned the pendulum, I just placed my eyes, bent over, and wherever the cue was I could put it in a straight line behind the cue ball. But I did it with a lot of shoulder and hand movement. It wasn't very consistent in terms of cue tip placement, but it did get the cue moving in a straight line. Now I have this constant conflict between cue direction and eye direction.

I've included a picture of what I often see when trying to hit center ball. This would be either because my head is moved to the right, or because the cue is pushed to the left, depending on which one is wrong at the moment. The result is the same.
 

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Mark,
I will try this advice, but if you read my previous post, I think you can see what I expect will happen, the problem of my cue getting pushed to the left side. But I will try it today.

Scott,
I keep our video on my ipod, which is always with me. I look at it every few months. At the time of our lesson I was, unfortunately, shooting pretty well (for me). I wish I would have shot like garbage instead. :) At that time, I had recently changed my stance a little bit, and the result was that I was shooting straight, but I ended up having pain in my neck (as I mentioned above, I was contorting). I had written down to talk to you about it, but somehow didn't. I think the pain hadn't quite developed to the point where it was a huge concern at that time. The players I have met here told me not to worry about that kind of thing, that it would go away (one showed me the *pop* in his shoulder that he got in the process of going pro!). Anyways, it's hard for me to copy exactly what I was doing on that day. Also, it's hard for me to tell what I was doing in terms of my alignment because of the camera angles.

Thanks for your replies,
-Tim
 
Also, I'm not blaming the motion of the stroke, but rather the setup required to execute it.
...
Before I learned the pendulum, I just placed my eyes, bent over, and wherever the cue was I could put it in a straight line behind the cue ball. But I did it with a lot of shoulder and hand movement. It wasn't very consistent in terms of cue tip placement, but it did get the cue moving in a straight line.

It sounds like your chest and shoulders interfere with either stroke. With your old stroke, you compensated with shoulder and hand movement to stroke straight. With the pendulum stroke, your shoulder and hand are in the right position, but your shoulders position your eyes in the wrong position.

Along with my earlier advice, try this tip from this thread:

Stand straight up, feet about 12-18 inches apart. Hold your cue very lightly at the balance point with your grip hand. Now here's the hard part. RELAX!!! Let your body go as loose as possible, allow the weight of the cue to take your grip hand pretty much straight down. Close your eyes and relax even more. Let your grip arm go almost limp. After about 10 seconds, open your eyes and look where the cue is pointing. For some, it may be off at a 45 degree angle, for others it might be straight ahead, or somewhere in between. When you find where the cue naturally wants to go in relation to your stance, you will have a pretty good idea what your stance angle should probably be.
 
From the detailed description, it sounds more and more like an alignment issue and not a problem with the stroke.

Steve
 
arsenius, Your problem could be very possibly related to your stance. Try another stance. If you are presently using the standard pool stance, try using the more squared one such as Allison Fischer uses, where you face the shot. If this is the one you are using, try the standard one where you are more at a 45% angle. Let us know if this makes a difference.
 
Very positive thread..insightful..well explained..good,good stuff..and here
I thought I was being a nut trying to feel the weight of my cue..so as to better
My balance point,to help smooth out my stroke..45 degree angle stance helps my
Neck..my c-4 thro c-7 is trashed..will never give up pool..
 
Thanks to all who have posted in this thread. Sorry I haven't been able to get back here sooner. I haven't been shooting much, and I've been busy when I wasn't shooting.

I've had a little bit of success with some of the suggestions in this thread, still not where I want to be though.

I had to try Mark/pooltchr's relaxation tip a few times before I had any luck with it. I have changed my stance angle a little bit as a result of that. It may have helped a bit, but I'm not sure yet. Usually if I change anything I shoot better for a while.

Pooltchr, could you explain further what you mean by your last comment? What exactly do you mean by alignment? I guess it's obvious to me that something in my alignment is screwed up, but I don't know how to fix it. Like I said, I get my eyes lined up and can't make the cue come out straight, or the cue lined up and get my eyes straight over the top. What next?

Irock: I've tried many different stances over the years, but none of them have solved the problem. I guess no matter where my feet are, my upper body lands pretty much the same way.
 
Alignment is simply getting the critical parts of the stroke on the same plane. If you are right handed, your right shoulder, elbow, grip hand, and right foot, along with your head and bridge hand should all be very close to being all lined up. If you could see yourself from directly overhead, you could draw a straight line through all of those parts.

Steve
 
@Arsenius:
you wrote "I guess no matter where my feet are, my upper body lands pretty much the same way."

If we are talkin about alignment there could be a just a *small* thing that could *ruin* all. A friend (very good player) made a longer break- came back to the game and was training really often and he s a hell of a shooter. -But something was wrong-not constantly etc. (unforced errors on easy shots i teased him often :p) - but even me was not really able to help him out of his trouble. He then found a another instructor (good and qualified^^) ...and he told him to change just a bit the position of his hip. It took just about a week and he was totally satisfied.
I just want to say that are sometimes just small nuances that could be the key to correct alignment. And like you wrote, that your upper body is aligned pretty much the same....it has to fit with the other things which are also important :). The best way would be to find a really qualified guy who would work with you with video and camera to find out where your problem is. To give a 100% tip for your problem in my opinion not really serious without seeing you.

lg
INgo
 
Reality is, either you got it or you dont. Dont beat yourself down just play and have fun. Working on the pendulum stroke for three years tells me your making it harder than it really is. Just go play and have fun doing it.

Tim
 
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