Tight Pockets

[peppersauce]

How long have tight pockets on American pool tables been a thing? I understand it’s somewhat subjective, but in general.

I’ve heard stories about older players like Wimpy and Cowboy playing on 5x10s with 4 1/2 or 4 1/4” pockets. I even saw an interview with Wimpy many years ago where the interviewer asked Wimpy how he felt about “today’s” (whatever year it was) tougher playing conditions. He said something like, I think you should make the game as difficult as you can.

When I began playing around 20 years ago, 4” or even sub 4” pockets were definitely a thing. My favorite pool room at the time had two “pit” tables, one with 4” pockets and the other with just under 4” pockets. I never thought anything of it, since I watched strong shortstops and pro speed players running out on them. I just thought that’s what good players played on.

So when did the shift happen from 5 or even 5 1/2” corners to where we are today? And what started us down that path?

 

[ChrisinNC]

How long have tight pockets on American pool tables been a thing? I understand it’s somewhat subjective, but in general.

I’ve heard stories about older players like Wimpy and Cowboy playing on 5x10s with 4 1/2 or 4 1/4” pockets. I even saw an interview with Wimpy many years ago where the interviewer asked Wimpy how he felt about “today’s” (whatever year it was) tougher playing conditions. He said something like, I think you should make the game as difficult as you can.

When I began playing around 20 years ago, 4” or even sub 4” pockets were definitely a thing. My favorite pool room at the time had two “pit” tables, one with 4” pockets and the other with just under 4” pockets. I never thought anything of it, since I watched strong shortstops and pro speed players running out on them. I just thought that’s what good players played on.

So when did the shift happen from 5 or even 5 1/2” corners to where we are today? And what started us down that path?

Diamond tables 4 1/2 inch corners and 5 inch sides - their standard tour cut pocket specs, have become standard on virtually all Diamond commercial tables for at least the past 30+ years since Diamond’s inception in 1987.

Ernesto Dominguez has been extending sub rails, installing new cushion rubbers and significantly tightening pockets on Gold Crown tables in pool rooms (mainly throughout California where he resides) for the past 30+ years. Not to say Ernesto is the only table mechanic doing this, but I think it would be pretty safe to assume he’s significantly altered the pocket specs on more commercial pool room tables than anyone else in the business.

 

[peppersauce]

Diamond tables 4 1/2 inch corners and 5 inch sides - their standard tour cut pocket specs, have become standard on virtually all Diamond commercial tables for seems like the past 30+ years.

Ernesto Dominguez has been extending sub rails, installing new cushion rubbers and significantly tightening pockets on Gold Crown tables in pool rooms throughout California over the past 30+ years as well. Not to say Ernesto is the only table mechanic doing this, but I think it would be pretty safe to assume he’s done it on more tables than anyone else in the business.

30+ years...wow. But why the change? What made people decide that 5 or 5 1/2” pockets were too big?

My uneducated guess is it had something to do with equipment changes. Like going away from heavy nap cloth, clay balls, and slow cushions to worsted cloth, phenolic resin balls, and the super fast modern cushions. Of course, I wasn’t around when the standard was nap cloth and clay balls, but I’ve heard people say many many times here on this forum how much more difficult those conditions made the game back then.

 

[mikemosconi]

Diamond created the smaller pockets as a "standard" -- prior to that, my experience in the 60s thru 80s was that many rooms had only one or maybe a couple of tables with 4 1/2 inch corner pockets. Those tables were usually in the front of the rooms by the house desk.

The total equipment change over to higher speed rails, and cloth, combined with smaller pockets in general and balls with higher elasticity meant that the best pool cue strokes had to actually cause the cue stick to pass all the way through the cue ball for desired effect- but at a slower speed. European and Asian countries excel at training the pool stroke to meet modern day equipment requirements. it is very difficult to excel on modern equipment without formal stroke training - it is possible- but I see the modern conditions as more demanding of proper stroke mechanics.

The old thinking by U.S. table manufactures was to make the commercial and home tables easier to play so that more people would come back to the game- especially 60s thru 80s. In some ways they were right. Now when one walks into a room full of Diamonds- the uninitiated, casual players looking for a good time only are easily frustrated and walk out wondering 'what's the point" - I am not against the changes, we just do not enough formal training venues - like golf for instance, where folks can learn the mechanics needed to play the game with greater satisfaction and early success.

 

[TATE]

How long have tight pockets on American pool tables been a thing? I understand it’s somewhat subjective, but in general.

I’ve heard stories about older players like Wimpy and Cowboy playing on 5x10s with 4 1/2 or 4 1/4” pockets. I even saw an interview with Wimpy many years ago where the interviewer asked Wimpy how he felt about “today’s” (whatever year it was) tougher playing conditions. He said something like, I think you should make the game as difficult as you can.

When I began playing around 20 years ago, 4” or even sub 4” pockets were definitely a thing. My favorite pool room at the time had two “pit” tables, one with 4” pockets and the other with just under 4” pockets. I never thought anything of it, since I watched strong shortstops and pro speed players running out on them. I just thought that’s what good players played on.

So when did the shift happen from 5 or even 5 1/2” corners to where we are today? And what started us down that path?

I quit playing in the early 1980's and started up again in the early 2000's - by then many of the tables in the Los Angeles area had changed from the standard 4 7/8 pockets to smaller sizes ranging from 4" to 4.5". Ernesto did a lot of the conversions.

I believe the growing popularity of one pocket had something to do with it. Also, Ernesto cut his pockets nearly parallel, which made the pockets drop easier instead of jarring. When he converted my original table to 4", I asked about that - he said they're tight but they drop better, so they play larger. In any case, he thought tight pockets improved the player.

Some of this is regional. When I play in other cities, I often encounter large pockets.

 

[garczar]

Place i play has ten GC4's. For some reason they tightened six of them to around 4.25". WHY is beyond me. The other four are 4.5" and more than tough for most players. The regular, day in-day out recreational players have trouble with 4.5 much less anything tighter. Having a couple tight ones i get but not 60% of you tables. Not smart imo.

 

[hang-the-9]

Place i play has ten GC4's. For some reason they tightened six of them to around 4.25". WHY is beyond me. The other four are 4.5" and more than tough for most players. The regular, day in-day out recreational players have trouble with 4.5 much less anything tighter. Having a couple tight ones i get but not 60% of you tables. Not smart imo.

Same reason you see 20" wheels stuffed into Civics that don't have the ground clearance to get over dead chipmunk, someone said it was the cool thing to do without thinking about why exactly.

 

[u12armresl]

How long have tight pockets on American pool tables been a thing? I understand it’s somewhat subjective, but in general.

I’ve heard stories about older players like Wimpy and Cowboy playing on 5x10s with 4 1/2 or 4 1/4” pockets. I even saw an interview with Wimpy many years ago where the interviewer asked Wimpy how he felt about “today’s” (whatever year it was) tougher playing conditions. He said something like, I think you should make the game as difficult as you can.

When I began playing around 20 years ago, 4” or even sub 4” pockets were definitely a thing. My favorite pool room at the time had two “pit” tables, one with 4” pockets and the other with just under 4” pockets. I never thought anything of it, since I watched strong shortstops and pro speed players running out on them. I just thought that’s what good players played on.

So when did the shift happen from 5 or even 5 1/2” corners to where we are today? And what started us down that path?

Where was this where pockets were under 4"

 

[Bavafongoul]

The tighter the better....the pocket on my buddy’s table in the photo would be even better 1/8” smaller.

 

[peppersauce]

Where was this where pockets were under 4"

Tulsa Billiard Palace back in the early 2000s. There were actually three tables in the “pit” area. A 5x10 snooker table for golf and pay ball, and the other two 9ft GC4s with 4” pockets. I don’t think the tighter one was intentional though. I never would’ve noticed if a better player hadn’t pointed it out to me. I’m not saying it was 3 3/4” or something crazy like that. It was just a little tighter than 4”.

 

[peppersauce]

Place i play has ten GC4's. For some reason they tightened six of them to around 4.25". WHY is beyond me. The other four are 4.5" and more than tough for most players. The regular, day in-day out recreational players have trouble with 4.5 much less anything tighter. Having a couple tight ones i get but not 60% of you tables. Not smart imo.

Those front two play a little tighter than 4 1/4”, IMO. They measure 4 1/4, but the facings are bouncy and, last time I was there, the cloth was pulled really tight at the corners, curving the facing a little. Lots of balls wobbling on those two tables last time I played there. Particularly the one on the left up front near the pro shop.

Edit: It’s been probably a year or two since I was there last. Maybe it was just a rushed job. That room has the best equipment in town.

 

[peppersauce]

I quit playing in the early 1980's and started up again in the early 2000's - by then many of the tables in the Los Angeles area had changed from the standard 4 7/8 pockets to smaller sizes ranging from 4" to 4.5". Ernesto did a lot of the conversions.

I believe the growing popularity of one pocket had something to do with it. Also, Ernesto cut his pockets nearly parallel, which made the pockets drop easier instead of jarring. When he converted my original table to 4", I asked about that - he said they're tight but they drop better, so they play larger. In any case, he thought tight pockets improved the player.

Some of this is regional. When I play in other cities, I often encounter large pockets.

I hadn’t thought about one pocket. Good point. I knew Ernesto cut his facings near parallel. I’ve never played on a table he worked on, to my knowledge, but I remember you posting a video in the ghost thread back when your table had 4” pockets. It looked tough for sure.

 

[peppersauce]

Diamond created the smaller pockets as a "standard" -- prior to that, my experience in the 60s thru 80s was that many rooms had only one or maybe a couple of tables with 4 1/2 inch corner pockets. Those tables were usually in the front of the rooms by the house desk.

The total equipment change over to higher speed rails, and cloth, combined with smaller pockets in general and balls with higher elasticity meant that the best pool cue strokes had to actually cause the cue stick to pass all the way through the cue ball for desired effect- but at a slower speed. European and Asian countries excel at training the pool stroke to meet modern day equipment requirements. it is very difficult to excel on modern equipment without formal stroke training - it is possible- but I see the modern conditions as more demanding of proper stroke mechanics.

The old thinking by U.S. table manufactures was to make the commercial and home tables easier to play so that more people would come back to the game- especially 60s thru 80s. In some ways they were right. Now when one walks into a room full of Diamonds- the uninitiated, casual players looking for a good time only are easily frustrated and walk out wondering 'what's the point" - I am not against the changes, we just do not enough formal training venues - like golf for instance, where folks can learn the mechanics needed to play the game with greater satisfaction and early success.

Thanks for the info!
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[garczar]

Tulsa Billiard Palace back in the early 2000s. There were actually three tables in the “pit” area. A 5x10 snooker table for golf and pay ball, and the other two 9ft GC4s with 4” pockets. I don’t think the tighter one was intentional though. I never would’ve noticed if a better player hadn’t pointed it out to me. I’m not saying it was 3 3/4” or something crazy like that. It was just a little tighter than 4”.

I know who has it. 3&7/8's. Pretty damn snug.

 

[kling&allen]

This is one of my favorite historical articles. It's an interview with Irving Crane from 1969 where he explains differences in tables between the generations. And complains plenty about modern pool.

"To his credit, or at least in his defense, Crane grew up in an era of large tables, small pockets, ivory cue balls and Belgian clay object balls, conditions that made a run of 100, some say, comparable to a run of 300 with today's equipment. Today the tables are smaller (4½' by 9'), the pockets are larger (5½" vs. 4") and the object balls and the cue ball are made of plastic. "The ball skids like an ashtray when you hit it," Crane says. "It's not supposed to skid, it's supposed to roll. These plastic balls are pretty. They don't ever chip, they don't ever break, they hold their color forever—and they're the worst balls ever made. The old mud balls were far superior. With the smaller table and the bigger pockets, any meatball can throw a run of 100 at me. I don't worry about guys like Joe Balsis or Steve Mizerak or Luther Lassiter. I know I'll win and lose my share against them. But one of these guys who can't play at all will suddenly come to the table and run a hundred—against me. "

The Frail Gray Man with the Strong Pool Cue

Irving Crane, who is one of the best straight pocket billiards players in the world, could be the now slightly aged prototype of the original 97-pound

vault.si.com

 

[garczar]

This is one of my favorite historical articles. It's an interview with Irving Crane from 1969 where he explains differences in tables between the generations. And complains plenty about modern pool.

The Frail Gray Man with the Strong Pool Cue

Irving Crane, who is one of the best straight pocket billiards players in the world, could be the now slightly aged prototype of the original 97-pound

vault.si.com

When i started in '78 i played a couple times with the old balls. I thought they sucked. They could have just been past their prime but they were just DEAD compared to Centennials. They sounded funny too. I'll take modern phenolic balls anytime. Did the 5x10's in Crane's day really have pockets that tight?

 

[peppersauce]

This is one of my favorite historical articles. It's an interview with Irving Crane from 1969 where he explains differences in tables between the generations. And complains plenty about modern pool.

The Frail Gray Man with the Strong Pool Cue

Irving Crane, who is one of the best straight pocket billiards players in the world, could be the now slightly aged prototype of the original 97-pound

vault.si.com

GREAT read! Thanks for sharing.

Crane had his complaints, but it seems plenty of other players had their own complaints about him.

And...did I just read that the standard 90 or so years ago was 4” pockets on 5x10’ tables!? With old nap cloth and clay balls!? Wow.

Edit to add:
I’ve always enjoyed watching old video (what little there is) of Crane. Something about the way he played is just enjoyable to watch, for me. I didn’t know anything about him though.

 

[garczar]

GREAT read! Thanks for sharing.

Crane had his complaints, but it seems plenty of other players had their own complaints about him.

And...did I just read that the standard 90 or so years ago was 4” pockets on 5x10’ tables!? With old nap cloth and clay balls!? Wow.

Crane ran 309 on a 5x10. He ran 150 and the crowd wanted more so he got all the way to 309. Pretty sporty.

 

[peppersauce]

Crane ran 309 on a 5x10. He ran 150 and the crowd wanted more so he got all the way to 309. Pretty sporty.

I love how he talked about “meatballs” who couldn’t play, but could randomly throw up a 100 ball run here or there on “modern” (1969 ish) equipment. Don’t worry, Irv. I still can’t run 50 on my 4 1/2 x 9 with 4 1/4” pockets. I don’t know if I should laugh or cry.

 

[Cornerman]

I had access to some great 10’ tables in western Massachusetts at Smith’s Billiards in Springfield, MA. they were turn-of-the-century, World’s Fair old. 5” corners all day long. Maybe other places were different, but at the time I played on them, GCIIIs were about the same size pockets in the late 1980’s.