# Two new kicking systems

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well, I like it. I understand rolling balls bank short. The 80-40=40 example makes sense to me.

Maybe only I notice this because I play carom on a pool table.

I give it a +1 among a sea of -1’s.

#### Patrick Johnson

##### Fish of the Day
Silver Member
… rolling balls bank short.
Just the opposite in my experience. Maybe I missed your meaning?

pj
chgo

#### straightline

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Short rail? It's this discrepancy that's kept cue sports out of the Olympkicks.

bbb

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just the opposite in my experience. Maybe I missed your meaning?

pj
chgo

#### boogieman

##### It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
Perhaps we mean different things by the mirror system, but the way I do it requires no visual judgement/guesswork/intuition, just simple steps to measure and memorize a point on the rail.

I'll clarify how I do it, perhaps there's some key difference that might help you:

View attachment 770508

1. Stand behind the target point (black cross next to the one-ball in the image), and place your cue on the table such that the tip touches the target point. Make sure your cue is angled in a straight line towards the rail, and then put your fingers on the cue on the rail-hit point (black cross next to the rail in the image) to form the red line in the image.

2. Keeping the fingers on the cue, move the cue backwards such that your tip now touches the rail-hit point (Forming the orange line in the image). This effectively doubles the distance, and your fingers touching the cue are now placed exactly at the mirror aiming point (Red cross in the image).

3. Keep your mirror aiming point carefully by not moving your fingers, and then move the cue such that it points from your fingers to the cue ball (blue line in the image).

4. Keeping your cue on this line, locate the point your cue overlaps the rail on the diamond-line. To memorize this point, I personally subdivide the diamond markings in my head (for example into 1/10ths) and then memorize it as a decimal number, e.g. in this image it would be 7/10 between the diamonds (0 being the left diamond, 1 being the right diamond). To not forget which diamonds we are talking about, I would memorize the point in this case by memorizing "1.3 from the end rail", meaning 1 full diamond then 0.3 diamonds.

I agree that if you gain value past just locating the mirror point, various systems can indeed be useful in some scenarios.

I borrowed your drawing, the stuff I put on is not to scale and just plopped down quickly. I'm very good at kicking. This is what I do, but don't worry it's simple... has to be for my overthinking ass. It's not "aim" but a visualization. It's a great baseline for kicking and requires no math. I use high english only.

1. Stand at 90°/square to the green line between CB and OB (while standing at yellow line).
2. Find the midpoint between the balls (I pasted 1B for reference).
3. Envision a line straight over to the rail from midpoint (purple line).
4. Keep the purple line and where it intersects the rail in mind as you address the CB. Line up to that target, I'm not really looking on the nose of the cushion for purple line target, more like the area where it intersects the diamonds, maybe where the cushion touches the rail... get the feel and do how you want but be consistent.
5. While in stance look at OB for a sort of "ghost ball" target, IE visualize the point/side/fraction/whatever you want to hit so it goes into the pocket, walk around beforehand if needed. You don't need or want to look at the cushion while stroking... see the target on the OB to pocket it,.
6. Stroke it at the correct speed with HIGH english only.

Expect to make it. If you don't make it right away you will very soon with this visualization technique. Speed is crucial on different equipment. I don't care about the math/geometry, it's a consistent visualization technique. It works. It's a great baseline. You can readily adapt to different cushions/cloth/humidity/cleanliness/etc. very rapidly with this visualization.

I look at the OB while shooting on pretty much everything kick related, my stick/stroke is on the target line so why look at the cushion? 2 rail or multi rail kicks included. You have to have fundamentals that allow a straight stroke even while looking at the OB instead of the rail. I hope someone finds this helpful, it was refined through hard knocks and giving up a lot of BIH while figuring it out.

EDIT: about step 4. At some point on the purple line, maybe far from the table, on the nose, diamonds, etc you will have a "mirrored image". It's easier to find when you know what square is. Maybe this is the secret after all... IDK... like a lot of this stuff it works but heck if I can explain it. It works and it gets you super consistent on kicks.

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#### bbb

##### AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
@boogieman
you said this
"I look at the OB while shooting on pretty much everything kick related, my stick/stroke is on the target line so why look at the cushion? 2 rail or multi rail kicks included. You have to have fundamentals that allow a straight stroke even while looking at the OB instead of the rail. I hope someone finds this helpful, it was refined through hard knocks and giving up a lot of BIH while figuring it out."
so on the kick above
you are aligned to the purple line aiming point and your eyes or head? is looking at the object ball?

#### boogieman

##### It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
@boogieman
you said this
"I look at the OB while shooting on pretty much everything kick related, my stick/stroke is on the target line so why look at the cushion? 2 rail or multi rail kicks included. You have to have fundamentals that allow a straight stroke even while looking at the OB instead of the rail. I hope someone finds this helpful, it was refined through hard knocks and giving up a lot of BIH while figuring it out."
so on the kick above
you are aligned to the purple line aiming point and your eyes or head? is looking at the object ball?
Pretty much. I'm aligned to the shot line, but after that I keep an eye on the OB. A lot of times it might just be in peripheral vision, I'm not an owl.

I think when I look at the OB it gives me a much better sense of "feel" speed or whatever you want to call it. I understand how odd it seems but it really works. Now if you decide to use side spin instead of high english only a little goes a long way. Something about how the high sort of "checks" the cushion is important. I don't know enough to know why, but I know it's most accurate that way. Adding english or low can cause a world of hurt on kicks... but you know how it is, sometimes you must.

I added an edit to the original, just acknowledging that purple line adds a ton of accuracy to kicking. Another reference if you will.

bbb

#### boogieman

##### It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I've been doing some research. About the purple line and where to "aim" on that line, from Dr. Dave's site:

Now I don't know if what I'm doing is "equal angle" or not, but Patrick is dead on with his assessment. I hear people think diamond tables bank short (not talking the original ones, but the updated ones). I never did think they bank/kick short. I must subconsciously adjust my aim point depending on conditions. If you aim at a specific thing, like the nose of the cushion I'd imagine adjusting would be much more difficult. I like to think in lines and angles instead of absolute specifics. I understand it may get under the skin of some, but I've found my subconscious is much better at adjusting to conditions if I just let it. No conscious thought required. Just ask it to do something and it does.

Also the good Doctor has the following high speed video of follow, stun, draw off of a rail. Seeing it makes sense with how I've perceived things.

Sorry to OP, not trying to derail the thread, it's just that this stuff is interesting and gets me thinking.

#### SSDiver2112

##### 2b || !2b t^ ?
I usually use this method. no calculations or walking around the table. It is quick and simple.
1. Put the tip at point A and position the cue over the mid point between cue ball and object ball hit point.
2. Look where the perpendicular line crosses the cue ( point D ).
3. Go straight up to the rail and that is your aiming point ( E ).

#### Oikawa

##### Well-known member
I usually use this method. no calculations or walking around the table. It is quick and simple.
1. Put the tip at point A and position the cue over the mid point between cue ball and object ball hit point.
2. Look where the perpendicular line crosses the cue ( point D ).
3. Go straight up to the rail and that is your aiming point ( E ).

View attachment 770639
This is a good approximation, just practically not as precise as the mirror method I explained. So preferable if precision isn't mandatory and/or you can't be bothered to spend extra time.

#### SSDiver2112

##### 2b || !2b t^ ?
This is a good approximation, just practically not as precise as the mirror method I explained. So preferable if precision isn't mandatory and/or you can't be bothered to spend extra time.
We all use what is comfortable and works for us personally. Depending on the situation I will use different methods including yours, but I use this more than others. I find this method to be just as accurate. It puts me on the exact same spot as the other method. One thing I like about it is that I find the point and don't have to take my eyes off of it. Where, for myself, finding the point and then walking around the table can take me off my accuracy of where the point really was. To each their own, just throwing in my 2¢.

#### straightline

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I usually use this method. no calculations or walking around the table. It is quick and simple.
1. Put the tip at point A and position the cue over the mid point between cue ball and object ball hit point.
2. Look where the perpendicular line crosses the cue ( point D ).
3. Go straight up to the rail and that is your aiming point ( E ).

View attachment 770639
Rectangulation? Kidding. Is it any more accurate than just pointing from the rock at the mirror image?

#### straightline

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That's a picture of billiards long - pool short.

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Just the opposite in my experience. Maybe I missed your meaning? ...
I think it's a difference in understanding of what long/short mean. In general a "long" path off a cushion means that the cue ball comes off the cushion more parallel to the cushion than you might expect and a "short" roll is when it comes off more perpendicular.

A rolling cue ball comes off a cushion "longer" than a sliding cue ball.

(According to a system by Bud Harris, a rolling cue ball that has a shallow angle into the rail (nearly parallel to the rail) comes off the rail at 70% of the incoming angle. For shallow angles the running/reverse on the cue ball has almost no effect on the outbound angle.)

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#### garczar

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Explaining how nuclear weapons work looks easy compared to the lame attempts at describing this new 'system'. This guy has used up more text than a Hollywood divorce decree.

#### Tennesseejoe

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Another way to look at it. Measure half way from cue ball to object ball (1 ball). This will be the 2 ball. Put your cue over the 2 ball and the target ball (3 ball). Now do a parallel shift till your cue is above the cue ball. The cue should be pointing at the 4 ball. This is your final aim point.

This very accurate and fast if you are using a shot clock.

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Another way to look at it. Measure half way from cue ball to object ball (1 ball). This will be the 2 ball. Put your cue over the 2 ball and the target ball (3 ball). Now do a parallel shift till your cue is above the cue ball. The cue should be pointing at the 4 ball. This is your final aim point.

This very accurate and fast if you are using a shot clock.
...
Nice system. No numbers, and no measuring a mirror out in space. I think the hard part about parallel shift systems like this is shifting from the 2-3 line to the shot line. That takes some practice.

bbb

#### Texas Carom Club

##### 9ball did to billiards what hiphop did to america
Silver Member
Are you absolutely 100 perfect percentage on every other kicking system made?

Silver Member