UPA Sactioned Events Question

Delaware Lar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I recently herd an rumor... that the Capitol City Classic, to be held in Phildelphia the end of August... see www.capitalclassicbilliards.com will be sactioned by the UPA. This sactioning is not free. The rumor goes that players will be charged an additional (hidden) $25 to the already $225 fee.

Is this rumor true or false? Does UPA charge the players to saction and event?
 
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Contact UPA

Mr. manly I notice that all you do is bash the upa. Why is anyone crying about having to pay $25 to play the pro's? I think you're not exactly truthful about contacting the upa. I contacted them and they responded within a day or so and apologized for taking so long. They are busy you know. You can also call them 407-257-5887.

"They had many unsuspecting pro players sign contracts without the pro player realizing the consequences."

Since when do people join an organization without signing agreements? Any "unsuspecting pro" needs to learn a little about life.

"Many pro players are now having second thoughts and having the contracts reviewed and possibly rewritten. "

Give us some names. None of the pro's are doing what you say. See how easy that was to say?

You're just bashing the UPA. Stop majoring in minors. Try supporting men's pro pool and give them some extra money. This get's old after awhile. Call the upa don't make up this "trying to contact them for 2 weeks" bit.

pool chick
 
Hi, Pool Chick. I don't want to bash UPA, and I don't want to be bashed on this forum. I am not untruthful, as you post, and I have repeatedly tried to contact the UPA about this question.

Naming the pros is something I do not like to do in a public forum. I do not want to misquote somebody or provide any hearsay in the form of "smut." I am hopeful these pro players straighten out their difference(s) with UPA in businesslike manner.

Let the good times roll!

Manlyshot
 
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Manly,

I'm curious. After the tournament was sanctioned by the UPA, did the entry fee increase $25 to $250 or are you writing two checks: one to the UPA in the amount of $25, and one for the tournament fee in the amount of $225?
 
Hi, DoomCue. Originally, when I was first informed of Capital City tournament in Philly, the website said to pay $200 for entry fee and $25 for green fee.

Now after UPA sanctioning -- WHICH CAME ALONG AFTER THE INITIAL TOURNAMENT ANNOUNCEMENT -- you must pay $200 for entry fee, $25 for green fee to the tournament folks. Separately and apart from entry fee and green fee, it is MANDATORY to pay $25 to UPA. If you are already a UPA member, you do not need to pay this additional $25. It is my understanding that you may join the UPA in Philly and pay $100 to join if you do not want to pay a one-time fee of $25.

I was hoping by posting on this forum, which is read by so many people in the know, so to speak, that I would gain some insight as to what the UPA can do for my pool world. One poster wrote that you may accumulate points. This may help some professional shooters. It is the independent events, though, that affect me. Points do not enter the picture in my situation. If there are other benefits, it would be great to hear from somebody who has firsthand knowledge.

ManlyShot
 
Re: Contact UPA

Pool Chick said:
Mr. manly I notice that all you do is bash the upa. Why is anyone crying about having to pay $25 to play the pro's?


There is your answer Manly - you are paying the extra $25 for the privilege of playing the pros. And here you thought you were entering the tournament because you thought you had a chance to win it.

Isn't it amazing at how many brand new posters log on here and the first thing they say is how great CW and the UPA is? And then they never post again.

You won't get an answer from CW because I am sure that the UPA attorney told CW that nothing good can come from him answering questions on this forum - at least in his own name.

But you guys are all three times 7 and should be able to think for yourselves. It may be the only game in town but you are not required to play in it; nor am I required to go watch it. Jake
 
Pool Chick posts: "Mr. manly I notice that all you do is bash the upa. Why is anyone crying about having to pay $25 to play the pro's?"

Please, Pool Chick, instead of getting your feathers ruffled up, provide some positive features of UPA membership. I eagerly await to hear what you have to say.

ManlyShot
 
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My feathers aren't the one in a ruffle. I'm a pool fan just like everyone else, I just can't stand to hear grown men cry about $25. Fact of the matter is I just don't believe you. Did you call the number? If they didn't answer did you leave a msg? I've read these posts for at least a year now, and I like many of them. Very helpful. But I also notice a common theme when it comes to a few of you. I don't understand what the big deal is. You have the women's professional organization (WPBA) and you have the men's (UPA). Seems to me that you would spend less time worrying about $25 and perhaps find a job to pay it. If any of you are insuating that I"M C.W. or anyone who even knows him your crazy. You just don't like the idea that there is gal out here who thinks that your points are childlike.

Your shot,

K.
 
I was eagerly looking forward to hearing from you, Pool Chick.

The tone of your postings are not pleasant, to say the least. If it helps to criticize me, then I hope you have had a nice day.


ManlyShot
 
POOL CHICK POSTS: "Seems to me that you would spend less time worrying about $25 and perhaps find a job to pay it."

Let the good times roll.

I would say "your shot," if I thought you had a shot to contribute, but I feel it is better to say: See you on the rail, Pool Chick!

ManlyShot
 
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"maybe the UPA could charge folks like you, Pool Chick, a 20-percent surcharge on tickets to the U.S. Open and other venues."

No problem. I'd pay more. If I were good enough I'd pay far more than $25 to play against the best.

"If you have been reading this forum for over a year, it is curious that this is your first post -- to me about the UPA and 25 bucks. I noticed you registered on this forum July 4th of this year, several days ago."

Does a person have to register to read? If the post were about sensless accusations against the WPBA I would have posted as well. So what's your point? A person has to jump in the water at some point. Seems everyone who flunked logic class is trying to bash the UPA. Would you feel better about this if logged on 6 months ago? Maybe you would feel better if I waited another week or two?

"I cannot believe the women's pool organizations approached their prospective members in the same manner as the UPA is doing now."

How would you know? From what I understand the men used the same contract. How's it different? You think the women are easier to deal with then the ego's of the men?

Still noticed that you haven't given a name for the person you talked to at the UPA. Think I called your bluff...

You can't kick out of this one, so just hand the cue ball over....

K.L.
 
K.L. (?), you are playing pool with the wrong person. My expertise lies in other areas.

Nice to see you have a sense of humor, though.

ManlyShot
 
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Pool Chick

Nobody is bashing the UPA. The UPA has a serious PR problem that they need to address. A majority of the problems they are experiencing have been caused by their own boldness. It IS a bigger deal than you are making it, especially for those of us who saw the MPBT go down in flames in the 1990's. I would be more than willing to support Men's Professional Pool, and that may or may not include the UPA. That is my choice as a player. Whether you feel I flunked logic class or not is not the issue. The issue is that the UPA has created a public relations nightmare with the players. I had nothing to do with that. I would be more than willing to work with the UPA board to to try and straighten this mess out ( I believe I know how this can be done) but I won't hold my breath waiting for their phone call.

I have had no problem contacting certain members of the UPA Board. I feel that they are committed to making their tour successful. Many feel threatened by the aggressiveness they have shown as of late. This has more to do with the attitude and bluntness the UPA has publicly displayed. They present the attitude of "if you want to play, you'll shut up and pay the extra $25" and they go about their business with a smile on their face, mainly because the increase bothers nobody in the office. I think that is where many players are apprehensive about signing a contract with this organization.

Another problem is that the UPA board is made up of players. Personally, this scares me more than the contract. I see the potential for serious conflicts of interest because of this. I am viewing this from the perspective of a player, and other players will know what I am talking about. The problems with the UPA are not terminal. There is time to repair the situation, and to mend fences. Ignoring that the problem exists, or claiming that anyone that does not support the UPA does not support pool, is a childish stance that does nothing but make the problem grow worse.

The UPA is not a perfect entity, and the people running it are far from being perfect. The tour needs time to grow and the people in charge are going to make mistakes along the way. Not everyone is going to be happy all the time. My only problem is that every time someone criticizes the UPA, an anonymous defender comes to say that the UPA is the best thing since sliced bread, and that if we don't agree we are either stupid or an enemy of the sport. I believe that in this and other billiard related forums, that has occurred quite often. THAT does not help to alleviate the situation. If the players/potential players are unhappy about any aspect of the tour and its practices, the UPA should look to see why they are upset, and then come up with ways to either fix the problem or to better explain their reasoning.

If your views are as strong as you have presented them here, feel free to drop the screen name and the initials and publicly stand behind your statements like I am doing now. If you don't, then you become another one of their public relation problems. You cannot force feed this tour and expect everyone to love it.

Blackjack David Sapolis
 
Comparing the UPA to the WPBA is senseless. The WPBA does provide a tournament venue for their players. They provide ratings/rankings based on these tournaments. They have a system in place for women to enter into the pro ranks of the WPBA. They provide a bio of their members along with memorabilia for sale. People know which players are Pros and which are aspiring to be pros because of the WPBA. They offer the opportunity for their members to be seen on TV. Not only if they are in the finals but also as a guest on the TV show. In the case of the WPBA a contract makes sense and protects both the member and the organization.

As for the UPA what is it they provide their members? Is anyone allowed to join the UPA? Are all members of the UPA considered Pros? Why is it that the UPA has not gone out and set up at least a half dozen sites that they can call the UPA tour? Why does the UPA insist that other promoters only allow UPA members to play in their tournament? For the small amount of money that the UPA gets from the $25 mandatory membership fee it just doesn't seem worth it for all the aggravation and negative publicity it causes.

Jake
 
Blackjack, you must be a writer. If I ever get to El Paso, I hope to meet you. I have read many of your posts and have always enjoyed hearing what you have to say.

Let the good times roll!

ManlyShot
 
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BlackJack,

I don't remember saying that the upa was the best thing since sliced bread. I do remember pointing out that I love pool and therefore support the men's and women's pro organizations. The way I see is that you have several types of people to please. You have the promoters looking to make money. You have the non-pro wanting to be a pro without paying dues. You have the pro looking to make a living. You have the general public who doesn't check forums to see what the latest gossip is. Who is the UPA trying to please? Definately can't please everyone. I'm sure you agree with that. I called the UPA and asked more questions. I'm sure they're getting tired of me actually. But I told them that I was tired of hearing rumors and I wanted it straight from the horses mouth. The rep I talked to was Frank Alvarez. He has no problems pr wise. That's for sure. Honestly, the more I learn about the upa the more I respect them. I didn't know that they were a non-profit organization.
This makes a $25 fee silly to worry about. I've noticed that people on this forum talk, say a lot of "well from what I know" and everything else. No one actually talks to the UPA. You say the upa has made pr problems for itself. Seems to me you start a men's pro organization and you started a pr problem with someone. Who knows with all this negativity, maybe the upa could use a gal like me to get the facts out there. Maybe they are the best thing since sliced bread. Anythings better than a bunch a people logging on to spout their 2 cents worth when their not even willing to pick up a phone and ask the people who know.

My name's Kim. A gal like me doesn't have to put her name on this site. Next you'll be wanting my number. Don't worry about the messenger, keep your eyes on the msg. Let's stick to the arguments at hand. I work in the law field, and I LOVE pool.

pool chick
 
POOL CHICK POSTS: "My name's Kim. A gal like me doesn't have to put her name on this site. Next you'll be wanting my number."

You are kidding, aren't you? Blackjack writes on many forums, and I appreciate his wisdom.

Let the good times roll!

ManlyShot
 
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Pool Chick

It is my opinion that your response is typical of many UPA supporter threads I have read. I still do not understand the mentality where if a player does not agree with UPA methods or procedures, they are stupid, or an enemy of the sport. That is how many supporters like yourself are coming across to me, as well as others. You insinuate that I am grossly misinformed or basing my caution on rumors rather than facts. The problems the UPA has had with sanctioning, the US Open, and the players contract are well documented. In talking directly with other players, the one common denominator is lack of trust. This in no way means that the UPA has done anything wrong. It is the way they are being perceived and received by the players and some fans. The UPA has been very aggressive in their business practices in an effort to bring the Men's Tour further into the spotlight. The UPA is leading the charge and they are going full speed ahead and not looking back. Trouble is, many feel as if they getting run over, left in the dust, screwed over, or sacrificed. This is NOT the UPA's intention at all, but there seems to be a communication breakdown somewhere.

One of the main things I have seen is that many people have posted questions directly to the Tour Officials, who are obviously browsing this and other forums. They have chosen to ignore those questions, while at the same promoting their events, and sending out advertisements for Predator Pro Pool School. They are obviously here, but it seems they do a lot of selling, and not much more.


About the $25

IMO, if a player paid their entry prior to the UPA sanctioning the event, then that player is obligated to pay only the origninal quoted entry fee at the time they paid their entry, and nothing more. Whether they are asking for a dime, a nickel, or $25 does not matter. When the player paid his entry fee, he was issued a receipt, and it should have said "entry paid in full". The UPA has no right to come in "after the fact" and ask for more fees. The fee should only apply to players that pay their entry fee after the date of the UPA sanctioning. When Manlyshot paid the entry fee, it was a nonsanctioned event. They should have declined accepting entries until the sanctioning was official and this problem could have been avoided. Aksing for the $25 fee after the fact is just bad business by all parties involved.


Communication Problems?

As far commuinication, I will say that when I had questions, Mr. Alvarez was more than helpful with me, personally. Others have not been so lucky, but I have not had any probelms. I don't pretend to know why some people are not getting their questions answered.. All I know is that there seems to be a problem with communication and there are players that are taking a few steps back and looking these guys over very carefully. Ignoring this problem will not make it go away. It doesn't matter if these players are seasoned professionals, or young upstarts, their concerns should be addressed by the UPA. Each member should be treated equally. Nobody's membership fee should be worth more or less than the next guy. On the same note, The UPA owes nothing to any player if he/she is not a member of the UPA. Its a two way street. Remember, membership has its advantages.

Hear both sides

You have talked to the UPA several times and you are satisfied with everything they have told you. Talk to some of the players that are unhappy about the issues that are being addressed. Hear both sides of the story. This is not a "Good Guys Vs Bad Guys" scenario. The arguing and posturing are a waste of energy. This is about coming to an agreement that is in everybody's best interests.

The Contract

For many players, they were taken aback by the contract that was presented to them. It was a wake up call for many and sent home the fact that the players need to have proper representation in the writing of the contract. The contract should not be "one size fits all" as players have individual needs that are unique to their skill levels and income levels. Unless "proper" representation is addressed (by proper, I do not mean having a president / player representative that has any interest [financial or otherwise] in the working of the tour) - Until that problem is addressed the players will continue to be less than "United". The tour should designate a person to represent the players, separate from the UPA board. This is the conflict of interest I spoke of in my earlier post. The Players/board members cannot serve two masters. This is what is causing a lot of the problems. The UPA and the players, while "united", are separate entities in the signing of a contract. You work in the law field, you will understand that completely.

Moving Forward
Actually these problems (and the way that the UPA deals with them) are the the very things that will shape it's growth. On the other hand, if the problems are ignored and not dealt with, they could spell the tour's downfall. That would be a shame, as a lot of hard work has been done by a lot of people to get the UPA to where it is now. I wish both sides the best of luck.
 
UPA

Reply and reprint from "UPA as a sanctioning body" thread

I know little of the UPA .. other than what I read.. and hear through the grapevine .. or read on their website.
Is it a player's organization attempting to do ( as ) the late PBTA
( Mr. Mackey at the helm ) did ?
Is it a sanctioning body who shall "charge" the promoter's a fee and have the promoter's pass this fee along to the players so as to help finance the organization ?
Is it an organization that holds player contracts and uses the threat of no-show unless UPA compliance is met by the promoter's ?
Blackjack has many good points offered in his post .. !!
If an organization ( made up of player-members ) whose efforts are to "have a voice" in the promoter's business and use the threat of no-compliance .. no players-show-up .. then this organization will last about as long as the others ...
Now .. in order for a pro player organization to have a voice in a promoter's business .. they should bring something to the table other than the players ( participation ) .. such as: suggestions: hire a serious business manager whose scope of duty is to find, secure, implement and carry through with sponsorship money that can be added to ( and at least equal ) the promoter's added money fund .. thus creating an atmosphere where the player's do not have to pay the freight in additional fees .. the promoter's are happy dealing with the organization as a "promoting partner" and the players get more bang for the buck. As with most all newbie situations within our industry, i.e., The UPA .. will learn from their gains and losses .. but take it from someone who has been down this road .. find sponsorship .. find the dough .. and have more to offer than a hollow "player's contract". If not .. eventually, the players will ignore the contract and/or leave the organization and go "where the money is being offered" and/or the promoter's won't care to deal with the organization and will allow whoever pays ... as long as bodies show up and pay the entry fees.
John McChesney
Texas Express
 
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