Using outside english to help make cut shots

newcuer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Trying to understand the idea/benefit of using outside english to help make cut shots. I have never done this, but I know this was a popular strategy by many players. I understand the effects of cue ball induced throw, but I have always just cut the shot a little more the greater the cut angle is. I never really understood the logic behind using outside english to help make a cut shot, as I always figured its just best to avoid side spin unless cue ball positioning calls for it.


I'm just wondering what others thoughts about this are and if they subscribe to this theory or not...
 
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marinemike0931

Registered
I use it when the English won't negatively affect my cue ball position... Or when I want to hit the object ball straight on to avoid having the cue move 1 way or the other for a shot that's not exactly straight. The spin will throw the object ball on a better line. Really it's all in what works for you. You're probably right in saying that I should just train myself to adjust for cut induced throw, but I've been doing it for so long and it works so well that I don't want to fix what isn't broken.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
 

newcuer

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You're probably right in saying that I should just train myself to adjust for cut induced throw, but I've been doing it for so long and it works so well that I don't want to fix what isn't broken.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

Yea, I guess that is what I never understood. Aren't you trading reducing one judgment variable (cut induced throw) by adding another judgment variable (how much outside english to use)???
 

marinemike0931

Registered
Yea, I guess that is what I never understood. Aren't you trading reducing one judgment variable (cut induced throw) by adding another judgment variable (how much outside english to use)???
There isn't a big difference in spin induced throw from 1 tip of English to 2 tips of English when you're shooting a cut shot. More than anything, the outside English is just to stop the cut induced throw. There are other factors too, such as how clean the balls are. If the balls are freshly cleaned and polished, you need little to no spin... The cue ball doesn't grab the object ball as it crosses the object balls face. But another factor is deflection, feeling out how much BHE/FHE to apply depending on firmness of hit and amount of spin. All of that adds up to me missing shots I shouldn't on occasion. Like I said, I should probably work on dropping the habit, it's just all so natural at this point that I actually have to tell myself not to do it before each shot that would yield negative results by applying English.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Aren't you trading reducing one judgment variable (cut induced throw) by adding another judgment variable (how much outside english to use)???
Yes. Plus new aiming variables (squirt/swerve) and fewer position options.

It’s a bad trade.

pj
chgo
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do yourself a favor and learn to hit all cut shots with center ball on the cue. Trying to compensate for every variable of "squirt' "Swerve" "induced throw" etc. will just ruin your game in your mind and then on the table itself. Only add left or right to the cue ball for position purposes or to purposely "throw' an object ball to pocket it if the pocket or cue ball is partially blocked.
The more you add " variables" to the approach; the more difficult you make it to achieve consistency of success.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Trying to understand the idea/benefit of using outside english to help make cut shots. I have never done this, but I know this was a popular strategy by many players. I understand the effects of cue ball induced throw, but I have always just cut the shot a little more the greater the cut angle is. I never really understood the logic behind using outside english to help make a cut shot, as I always figured its just best to avoid side spin unless cue ball positioning calls for it.


I'm just wondering what others thoughts about this are and if they subscribe to this theory or not...

I asked two HOF players about this subject and here's what they said:

Jim Rempe - Put a small amount of english on every shot, like 1/5 of a tip or less. He said this will prevent the ball from "turning over." What he meant is that when you hit a cut shot without english if you watch carefully often the object ball will skid before it rolls, or turns over. If you put that touch of english on the shot this does not happen and the ball rolls right off contact toward the pocket. I think this happens more with dirty balls and not so much with clean ones.

Mike Sigel - answered like this... If you set up an easy shot into the side pocket and I get $50,000 if I pocket the ball, I'm putting outside english on the shot every time!

On the other hand, Mark Wilson in his book, Play Great Pool, advises against outside english because it complicates shots unnecessarily.

I think the difference is that Rempe/Sigel are talking about very small amounts that effectively do not introduce much complexity to the shot, and ultimately provide more benefits than drawbacks. I go back and forth between the two methods as I haven't decided 100% for myself. I can say for sure that the balls do "turn over" when they are not clean. I also do use a little outside when the cb and ob are close together because the cue ball often stuns before achieving natural roll if you don't hit high follow. I do this to prevent a stun shot in which throw will be greater, and unexpected.
 
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buckshotshoey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I only use it if there is a reason to do so. For instance cue ball position. There is one more situation where I would use it. If an opponent's ball is blocking a pocket, and I want to pocket his ball and have my ball follow into the pocket. Outside spin and a little draw will make your object ball start rolling with no spin, and have a following effect. But if it won't help your position, the shot is useless.

But you have to remember.... the amount of outside is dependent on cut angle AND shot speed.

Dr Dave has a very good description on this, along with a couple of more reasons to use gearing outside spin. Read and re read it 3 or 4 times if necessary. It will make sense.

Dr Dave's resources are your best friend. You will spend days reading everything, and a lifetime to put it all into practice! Thanks Doc.

https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Jim Rempe - Put a small amount of english on every shot, like 1/5 of a tip or less. He said this will prevent the ball from "turning over." What he meant is that when you hit a cut shot without english if you watch carefully often the object ball will skid before it rolls, or turns over. If you put that touch of english on the shot this does not happen and the ball rolls right off contact toward the pocket.
Impossible. For example, to give the CB "instant natural roll" you have to hit it with 80% of maximum follow. That amount of follow can't be transferred to an OB even with a straight shot and maximum draw on the CB.

What Rempe's actually seeing is the effect of eliminating throw with outside "gearing" english - the "turning over" he sees without it is actually side spin transferred to the OB.

pj
chgo
 

td873

C is for Cookie
Gold Member
Silver Member
Trying to understand the idea/benefit of using outside english to help make cut shots. I have never done this, but I know this was a popular strategy by many players. I understand the effects of cue ball induced throw, but I have always just cut the shot a little more the greater the cut angle is. I never really understood the logic behind using outside english to help make a cut shot, as I always figured its just best to avoid side spin unless cue ball positioning calls for it.


I'm just wondering what others thoughts about this are and if they subscribe to this theory or not...
Disregarding needing english for shape, outside english is just one tool to pocket the ball. You need a full toolbox to play at the top level. But you shouldn't exclusively rely on it.

As it turns out, Barry Stark just did a video on this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfo_2qAXnaw
 

strmanglr scott

All about Focus
Silver Member
I agree, don't use English. It's a crutch.

Use that crutch all the time and then I can bet what kind of pocketing percentage you'll have when you need top inside English for CB position. Been there.

The amount of shots I've missed because I put a little English insurance on a shot, smh. I kick myself everytime I do it, drives me nuts and I know exactly what I did. That was an easy shot but I got sloppy and put English on it and was too much, arrghh.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Outside english is useful for reducing skids and partial skids. I think the usefulness of outside depends on the level of the player and how often skids occur. If an intermediate player misses 15% of their shots and the ball skids 1% of the time, outside might reduce the skids to 0.1% and increase the misses to 20%.

For a Sigel, Varner or Rempe who misses 2% of the time, getting rid of the bad contacts can give a significant benefit if it doesn't screw up their pocketing percentage. I think this is what Sigel was getting at. A skid on a simple shot can make it miss. A little outside is not an aiming problem for him so his basic pocketing percentage will not be reduced.

You don't have to have perfect gearing outside for this technique to work. It only has to be enough outside that the balls are gearing by the end of the ball-ball contact. In that case, the amount of friction between the balls stops being a factor in the cut angle.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Yea, I guess that is what I never understood. Aren't you trading reducing one judgment variable (cut induced throw) by adding another judgment variable (how much outside english to use)???

Yes. Plus new aiming variables (squirt/swerve) and fewer position options.

It’s a bad trade.

pj
chgo

I spin a lot...even at snooker.

Early in my playing...I used a lot of center ball....then I realized....
..side spin complicates a shot...but not avoiding side spin allows you to make runs with
relatively easy shots...the better I got at position, the more I spun.

Spinning made me very particular about my choice of cues and tips....
...it’s like learning another language...but the more you use it, the better you get.

Pack play at snooker and straight pool...you use side spin to hold onto a ball...
...or to slide off it.

Joe Davis said of the great Aussie player, Eddie Charlton...”He never won a world
championship because of a reluctance to use “side”.
 

Hits 'em Hard

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Trying to understand the idea/benefit of using outside english to help make cut shots. I have never done this, but I know this was a popular strategy by many players. I understand the effects of cue ball induced throw, but I have always just cut the shot a little more the greater the cut angle is. I never really understood the logic behind using outside english to help make a cut shot, as I always figured its just best to avoid side spin unless cue ball positioning calls for it.


I'm just wondering what others thoughts about this are and if they subscribe to this theory or not...

It’s not using out English per se. It’s the act of giving the cue ball just enough counter rotation to offset the cut induced throw. Don’t think of trying to spin the ball, that’s where you don’t focus properly.
 

skip100

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From what I’ve seen, it seems like pros will use outside English on the money ball pretty much every time.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
From what I’ve seen, it seems like pros will use outside English on the money ball pretty much every time.
As Bob says, there's a big difference between pros doing it and imperfect human players. It will most likely decrease our shotmaking percentage but increase theirs.

pj
chgo
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Outside english is useful for reducing skids and partial skids. I think the usefulness of outside depends on the level of the player and how often skids occur. If an intermediate player misses 15% of their shots and the ball skids 1% of the time, outside might reduce the skids to 0.1% and increase the misses to 20%.

For a Sigel, Varner or Rempe who misses 2% of the time, getting rid of the bad contacts can give a significant benefit if it doesn't screw up their pocketing percentage. I think this is what Sigel was getting at. A skid on a simple shot can make it miss. A little outside is not an aiming problem for him so his basic pocketing percentage will not be reduced.

You don't have to have perfect gearing outside for this technique to work. It only has to be enough outside that the balls are gearing by the end of the ball-ball contact. In that case, the amount of friction between the balls stops being a factor in the cut angle.

Yes, I agree with this explanation and it is wise for most amateurs to listen- Some pros , as in all sports, can do things that for an average participant would decrease their consistency of performance, but for a true pro, will slightly increase their consistency of performance- 99.9% of the people on this site would just benefit from a more simple approach to the game- strive for consistency of your best performances, once there, you can begin to add more refinements to your approach.
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Outside english is useful for reducing skids and partial skids. I think the usefulness of outside depends on the level of the player and how often skids occur. If an intermediate player misses 15% of their shots and the ball skids 1% of the time, outside might reduce the skids to 0.1% and increase the misses to 20%.

For a Sigel, Varner or Rempe who misses 2% of the time, getting rid of the bad contacts can give a significant benefit if it doesn't screw up their pocketing percentage. I think this is what Sigel was getting at. A skid on a simple shot can make it miss. A little outside is not an aiming problem for him so his basic pocketing percentage will not be reduced.
Good explanation, Bob. FYI, I just added a linked quote to the using gearing outside english to reduce or eliminate throw and cling resource page.


You don't have to have perfect gearing outside for this technique to work. It only has to be enough outside that the balls are gearing by the end of the ball-ball contact. In that case, the amount of friction between the balls stops being a factor in the cut angle.
I don't agree with this statement in general. Consider an outside-english cut shot where the CB and OB would normally gear together during the hit (after sliding ceases) If the amount of outside were different, it is possible the balls would not gear before separation. In this case, cling/skid/kick would definitely cause more throw than normal (because added friction does make a difference when the balls don't normally gear together). Only when the amount of outside english is very close to the gearing amount do small changes in the amount of outside result in the same changes in throw (because the CB and OB would gear together before separation regardless of the extra friction or not).

I hope that makes sense. Please let me know if it does not.

Regards,
Dave
 
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