Vernon Elliot "The Faceless Man" - Great Road Player, or The Greatest?

[Low500]

Wade spent a lot of time with me showing me what he considered the secrets to the break. The way he released his wrist and the target he aimed at on the cueball is what he stressed the most.
He was powerful in the wrist and forearms, you could tell my shaking hands with him.
Wade also encouraged me to strengthen my hands and fingers as much as possible, so I bought a 16 pound shot put and started "squirting" it out of my hands using just my fingers.

CJ this will probably be old news to you, maybe not.
It's around 1994 and there was some kind of heavy money tournament at Mister Cue's Pool Room just off one of the 285 exits in the ATL.
Some good players and their stakehorses were there. Parica, Townsend, Archer, Ellin, I even think David Sizemore was still alive and there, along with the usual assortment of the "dangerous crowd" like Mean Stafford Dean.
I drew Scotty Townsend right out of the gate and he destroyed me....so I was relegated to the rail to eyeball and scuffle side bets.
Billy J. was playing Larry Nevill. The tables were 4 1/2 x 9's and did have pretty friendly pockets, but you didn't 'steal' anything on them.
Billy had one game where he broke and made every ball on the table except the 8 and 9. Then made them on consecutive shots. Three shots to win the game
In all my years of watching 9 Ball, I had never seen that many balls fly in on the break.
He had that break really working and the crowd just got bigger watching the balls explode. Nevill just sat in the chair shaking his head.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Dave Yaeger made 7 Balls on the break and hooked himself, had to push out

CJ this will probably be old news to you, maybe not.
It's around 1994 and there was some kind of heavy money tournament at Mister Cue's Pool Room just off one of the 285 exits in the ATL.
Some good players and their stakehorses were there. Parica, Townsend, Archer, Ellin, I even think David Sizemore was still alive and there, along with the usual assortment of the "dangerous crowd" like Mean Stafford Dean.
I drew Scotty Townsend right out of the gate and he destroyed me....so I was relegated to the rail to eyeball and scuffle side bets.
Billy J. was playing Larry Nevill. The tables were 4 1/2 x 9's and did have pretty friendly pockets, but you didn't 'steal' anything on them.
Billy had one game where he broke and made every ball on the table except the 8 and 9. Then made them on consecutive shots. Three shots to win the game
In all my years of watching 9 Ball, I had never seen that many balls fly in on the break.
He had that break really working and the crowd just got bigger watching the balls explode. Nevill just sat in the chair shaking his head.

That is incredible to make 7 balls on the break, the only other person I know that did that was Dave Yaeger and ironically he hooked himself so he had to push out. I've made 6 several times, but never 7, supposedly a guy in Monroe Louisiana made all of them, but that may be an urban legend.

I played a lot in Atlanta, but it was in the 80s mostly, I told that story and posted it a couple weeks ago. "Mean Dean" was backing players against me and fortunately he never {successfully} had me robbed. He hated losing but I think he respected that I played on my own money and never showed fear (even being alone) in those bars/prs as a teenager.

Do you remember a bar owned by a man named Jackie Mann?

Earl Strickland gave him the 6 Out and beat him for several thousand and he played me with the 7 Out. I still remember that little bar probably 20 miles outside of Atlanta, back then there were a lot of bars like that with owners that would gamble high.

Thinking about Atlanta brings back a lot of fond memories, I "accidentally" laid down a $1700 lemon when I first started playing there, which paid off 10 fold in a few weeks.

 

[GaryB]

Please keep the stories coming. C.J. I saw you play in tournaments here in So. Calif in the mid 90's as well as at Hard Times in an IPT qualifier.

You and Jay experienced an era of pool with a quality of players that unfortunately we may never see the likes of again.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Wade spent a lot of time with me showing me what he considered the secrets to the break. The way he released his wrist and the target he aimed at on the cueball is what he stressed the most.

He was powerful in the wrist and forearms, you could tell my shaking hands with him.

Wade also encouraged me to strengthen my hands and fingers as much as possible, so I bought a 16 pound shot put and started "squirting" it out of my hands using just my fingers.

This was shown to me by a martial arts master who said I should continue doing the exercise until I could "rip bark off trees".

I sure miss Billy, the last time I talked with him he wanted me to meet him in Georgia to tell me 2 things, first, how he got his name Billy Johnson and 2nd, who killed Monroe Brock.

Both stories were worth the trip to Georgia!

I had the pleasure of playing and beating Wade one race to 7 set in our pool room in the northwest mountains of North Carolina the late 1990s, just a couple years after I had opened. Wade and Harold Dollar showed up here out of the blue one day. They must’ve found out about our room from someone, as we are in a rural location that you just don’t happen to stumble in to. Harold and I went at it playing $100 sets for the better part of two straight days. I have never been much of a gambler, so $100 sets is about the most I would ever play for against anyone who walked in here. I later found out that Harold was quite a renowned player in the Carolinas at one time, but when we played, I was in my early 40s and he was likely pushing 60, considerably overweight, and didn’t appear to be in very good shape. We went back and forth for two days, I was up nearly all the time but never more than a few sets. He finally pulled up after a couple days. I think I was just physically wearing him down, but he never did ask me to up the bet.

For the entire sessions both days, Wade just sat and watched us, but never played or asked me to play. Wade still didn’t know that I’d recognize him, but I was 99% sure who he was. After Harold called it quits the second day, Wade asked me if I wanted to play him a set, same amount. We played one set, and I think I’ve beat him around 7-4. He never asked me to play another set, and they left shortly after.

Before leaving, I commented to him that he looked an awful lot like Wade Crane aka Billy Johnson, but he gave me some other name and I didn’t push it. I often wondered if he was taking it easy on me and $100 sets wasn’t even worth his effort to get his best game, if he didn’t want me to figure out who he was, or if he really had lost that much of his game by that time? I find that hard to believe, as strong a player as he was less than a decade earlier?

 

[PoolBum]

I'd guess it's vital to meet someone before you can even play them.

And you call yourself a hustler?!?!

 

[CJ Wiley]

I've never seen Wade play one set and quit, seems out of character

I had the pleasure of playing and beating Wade one race to 7 set in our pool room in the northwest mountains of North Carolina the late 1990s, just a couple years after I had opened. Wade and Harold Dollar showed up here out of the blue one day. They must’ve found out about our room from someone, as we are in a rural location that you just don’t happen to stumble in to. Harold and I went at it playing $100 sets for the better part of two straight days. I have never been much of a gambler, so $100 sets is about the most I would ever play for against anyone who walked in here. I later found out that Harold was quite a renowned player in the Carolinas at one time, but when we played, I was in my early 40s and he was likely pushing 60, considerably overweight, and didn’t appear to be in very good shape. We went back and forth for two days, I was up nearly all the time but never more than a few sets. He finally pulled up after a couple days. I think I was just physically wearing him down, but he never did ask me to up the bet.

For the entire sessions both days, Wade just sat and watched us, but never played or asked me to play. Wade still didn’t know that I’d recognize him, but I was 99% sure who he was. After Harold called it quits the second day, Wade asked me if I wanted to play him a set, same amount. We played one set, and I think I’ve beat him around 7-4. He never asked me to play another set, and they left shortly after.

Before leaving, I commented to him that he looked an awful lot like Wade Crane aka Billy Johnson, but he gave me some other name and I didn’t push it. I often wondered if he was taking it easy on me and $100 sets wasn’t even worth his effort to get his best game, if he didn’t want me to figure out who he was, or if he really had lost that much of his game by that time? I find that hard to believe, as strong a player as he was less than a decade earlier?

I'm surprised Wade would be over in North Carolina trying to play pool, especially with Harold Dollar. It could have been him, but that doesn't add up for some reason.

He hung around my pool room from 96-98 and then went to Georgia, although he spent some time in Knoxville Tenn. I think his daughter lived there or some family members.

His game was on the decline in 97 but he still played well, just didn't have the snap in his break anymore. I've also never seen Wade play one set and quit, seems out of character.

 

[ChrisinNC]

I'm surprised Wade would be over in North Carolina trying to play pool, especially with Harold Dollar. It could have been him, but that doesn't add up for some reason.

He hung around my pool room from 96-98 and then went to Georgia, although he spent some time in Knoxville Tenn. I think his daughter lived there or some family members.

His game was on the decline in 97 but he still played well, just didn't have the snap in his break anymore. I've also never seen Wade play one set and quit, seems out of character.

I don’t know why you’d say that. Wade Crane grew up in a small town in western North Carolina. I’ve confirmed with some others who would know that he did hang out in the eastern NC Sanford / Fayetteville area some around that time and did hang out with Harold Dollar for a while. I’m good with faces and I know for sure it was him. It could have been in the early 2000’s.

What can you tell me about Harold Dollar or Pete Horn? Pete was another player who hung out in here for a while during his truck driving days in the late nineties/early 2000’s. At that time, he was a shell of the player that I heard he used to be. Seemed like a nice guy when talking to him, but very got very ugly when gambling, when he wasn’t winning. It’s got to be frustrating for guys that played on their level once they lose their game.

 

[CJ Wiley]

North Carolina was one of the best pool gambling states for many years

I don’t know why you’d say that. Wade Crane grew up in a small town in western North Carolina. I’ve confirmed with some others who would know that he did hang out in the eastern NC Sanford / Fayetteville area some around that time and did hang out with Harold Dollar for a while. I’m good with faces and I know for sure it was him. It could have been in the early 2000’s.

What can you tell me about Harold Dollar or Pete Horn? Pete was another player who hung out in here for a while during his truck driving days in the late nineties/early 2000’s. At that time, he was a shell of the player that I heard he used to be. Seemed like a nice guy when talking to him, but very got very ugly when gambling, when he wasn’t winning. It’s got to be frustrating for guys that played on their level once they lose their game.

Yes, Wade hung out a lot in eastern NC with Gene Hooker, Plowboy, especially the guy that ran that area until he was locked up for awhile......what was his name?

I almost trapped Pete up over there but my timing was a little off, I tell that story on one of my You Tube videos, I'll post it one of these days.

My question wasn't about it being Wade, it was why he would go back to where most people know him to gamble, maybe they were doing something else, who knows?!?

North Carolina was one of the best pool gambling states for many years, I played Dennis Searcy in Charlotte, and beat Sharkey out of a big score before I was robbed there at gunpoint by his bootleg joint by the Pee Dee River.

Harold Dollar never would play me, he had seen me at a tournament in Columbia South Carolina, so he wouldn't match up.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Yes, Wade hung out a lot in eastern NC with Gene Hooker, Plowboy, especially the guy that ran that area until he was locked up for awhile......what was his name?

I almost trapped Pete up over there but my timing was a little off, I tell that story on one of my You Tube videos, I'll post it one of these days.

My question wasn't about it being Wade, it was why he would go back to where most people know him to gamble, maybe they were doing something else, who knows?!?

North Carolina was one of the best pool gambling states for many years, I played Dennis Searcy in Charlotte, and beat Sharkey out of a big score before I was robbed there at gunpoint by his bootleg joint by the Pee Dee River.

Harold Dollar never would play me, he had seen me at a tournament in Columbia South Carolina, so he wouldn't match up.

Our Poolroom is well off the beaten path and because of that not many players pass through here. Also, if they’ve done their research, They know in advance of coming here that I will not go off for enough $ to make it worth their trip, and little of anybody else up here would either.

I did recently make up a list of known male players that have entered through our doors in the 24 years since we’ve opened. Other than those three I’ve already mentioned, we’ve had Bill weenie beanie Staton, Grady Matthews, Danny Diliberto, Frank Tullos, Ramil Gallego, Antonio lining, Ernesto Dominguez (works on our tables), Little Tony Watson, Charlie hillbilly Bryant, Amar Kang, Derek Chew tobacco Leonard, Michael Fuller, Joey Gray, Jeff Abernathy, and I’m likely forgetting a few.

 

[Chip Roberson]

One of those NC players y'all have left out,,Irvin (Bill) Lawson. Billy would stop action just to watch Bill when he got in stroke and found his Zone. Bill was about 15 years older than Wade and helped Billy when he was young and Irvins break was something to behold as well. Early 80's I was out running the roads and called Timmy Daniels to see what was happening ,,he was in Roanoke Va Guys and Dolls room there and during a 9 ball tourn Lawson was put in the losers bracket by Allen Hopkins early on. Lawson came back through that side and the in the finals beat Hopkins the first set and having needing to win the second set for the tourn..Bill won the break and proceeded to run the session out.He was about 60 at that time,,when he was young , no one had a sure thing,,no one.

 

[CJ Wiley]

I wish I could have seen Bill Lawson play in his prime!

One of those NC players y'all have left out,,Irvin (Bill) Lawson. Billy would stop action just to watch Bill when he got in stroke and found his Zone. Bill was about 15 years older than Wade and helped Billy when he was young and Irvins break was something to behold as well. Early 80's I was out running the roads and called Timmy Daniels to see what was happening ,,he was in Roanoke Va Guys and Dolls room there and during a 9 ball tourn Lawson was put in the losers bracket by Allen Hopkins early on. Lawson came back through that side and the in the finals beat Hopkins the first set and having needing to win the second set for the tourn..Bill won the break and proceeded to run the session out.He was about 60 at that time,,when he was young , no one had a sure thing,,no one.

That's the player that Billy said taught him how to break, Bill Lawson, THANKS!

Wade told me Bill was an awesome player and I remember the story you just mentioned about running the set out on Hopkins.

I wish I could have seen him play in his prime, probably no video back then to watch!?!

 

[pt109]

I'm surprised Wade would be over in North Carolina trying to play pool, especially with Harold Dollar. It could have been him, but that doesn't add up for some reason.

He hung around my pool room from 96-98 and then went to Georgia, although he spent some time in Knoxville Tenn. I think his daughter lived there or some family members.

His game was on the decline in 97 but he still played well, just didn't have the snap in his break anymore. I've also never seen Wade play one set and quit, seems out of character.

When Billy’s eye sight got bad, it took a lot out of his game.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Buddy Hall said the same thing, not sure who said it first, but I listened!

When Billy’s eye sight got bad, it took a lot out of his game.

The special made glasses helped for awhile, but he wasn't able to cut the balls razor thin and his overall shotmaking wasn't the overwhelming factor that it once was.

He was actually younger than I am now when he was hanging around CJ's Billiard Palace every day. He told me if he'd known he was going to live that long he would have taken better care of himself.

Buddy Hall told me the same thing, not sure who said if first, but I listened and swore I'd continue to train, learn and eat healthy like I was going to be 100, even though I knew my life could end any day..... I'm okay with that considering the knifings, fights, gunshots and other near death experiences.

In this age of massive lies, propaganda, and manipulation it's difficult to be optimistic concerning what's in store for humanity, but if we can help one person wake up from the delusions it's worth the time. I know who has the victory in the end and that's vitally important, otherwise it would not be fun and exciting moving forward in this environment.

 

[Chip Roberson]

Billy made a trip up to see me back about a year before he passed away. We were putting a deal together to manufacture a new table bridge that had different bridge adjustments that one could use in making shots that were impossible with a normal bridge ,,much better that the rusko interlocking bridge. I gathered manufacturers in major industry in my area that could make the bridge and get it going and they were on board, but the gent with Billy that owned the patient wanted to use his people and companies down in New Orleans to do the building,,that guy was looking for capital investment, while we were going to invest and build and pay out royalties. Billy and I started talking about old times back in the 70's and of course Bill Lawson was mentioned,,CJ if ya ever saw this old gent in gear you would take notice,,yep out from everywhere. I copied my game from both Bills. We were in Fayetteville NC at Dixie Billiards for a tourny and Bill Lawson close to 60 or better was beating a new kid that had won some college tournament and thought he could play,,Bill was hitting with 3's 4's or what ever he needed to do to win and the kid looked over at me and said,,It's hard for me to get down and beat this old guy,I feel like I'm taking away his social security money . I just replied, yeah I know what ya mean: kid..LOL :thumbup:

 

[cuesmith]

He was also careful not to inadvertently knock someone's action. Gary and I were in a game/poolroom in Chattanooga back in the day. Vernon came to the front door and saw Gary playing a local. He stopped and waited outside til we were done. We then went to dinner together. While we were eating I asked him why he waited outside while Gary was playing. He said he thought if he went in, the railbirds would figure we knew each other and knock our action. I really liked Vernon. He was a gentleman hustler who made most of his money on "proposition shots". He would see a shot in his head that looked impossible! Then he would figure out how it could be made and privately practiced the shot over and over until his percentages got to a comfortable level. Then he would bet real high that he could make the shot in say, 5 tries, when he knew he was about 50/50 to make it each try. Vernon was a smart pool player!

 

[CJ Wiley]

Jack Cooney showed it to me at Rusty's Billiards on NW Hwy 36 years ago

He was also careful not to inadvertently knock someone's action. Gary and I were in a game/poolroom in Chattanooga back in the day. Vernon came to the front door and saw Gary playing a local. He stopped and waited outside til we were done. We then went to dinner together. While we were eating I asked him why he waited outside while Gary was playing. He said he thought if he went in, the railbirds would figure we knew each other and knock our action. I really liked Vernon. He was a gentleman hustler who made most of his money on "proposition shots". He would see a shot in his head that looked impossible! Then he would figure out how it could be made and privately practiced the shot over and over until his percentages got to a comfortable level. Then he would bet real high that he could make the shot in say, 5 tries, when he knew he was about 50/50 to make it each try. Vernon was a smart pool player!

Yes, we road players had a code and wouldn't knock action. There's been times I've walked into a spot, noticed another road player was there and turned around and left.

The greatest prop shot I've seen Vernon do is freezing a ball on the other side of the side pocket, put the cue ball on the rail straight down from it on the 2nd diamond and Back Cut the object ball, banking it cross side.

It looks impossible, Jack Cooney showed it to me at Rusty's Billiards on NW Hwy 36 years ago and I made it on the 2nd shot.......haven't been able to make again since then!

 

[ChrisinNC]

Yes, we road players had a code and wouldn't knock action. There's been times I've walked into a spot, noticed another road player was there and turned around and left.

The greatest prop shot I've seen Vernon do is freezing a ball on the other side of the side pocket, put the cue ball on the rail straight down from it on the 2nd diamond and Back Cut the object ball, banking it cross side.

It looks impossible, Jack Cooney showed it to me at Rusty's Billiards on NW Hwy 36 years ago and I made it on the 2nd shot.......haven't been able to make again since then!

CJ, just curious as to that prop shot you describe? Maximum outside spin and cutting it absolutely as thin as possible?

 

[Palmetto cue]

One of those NC players y'all have left out,,Irvin (Bill) Lawson. Billy would stop action just to watch Bill when he got in stroke and found his Zone. Bill was about 15 years older than Wade and helped Billy when he was young and Irvins break was something to behold as well. Early 80's I was out running the roads and called Timmy Daniels to see what was happening ,,he was in Roanoke Va Guys and Dolls room there and during a 9 ball tourn Lawson was put in the losers bracket by Allen Hopkins early on. Lawson came back through that side and the in the finals beat Hopkins the first set and having needing to win the second set for the tourn..Bill won the break and proceeded to run the session out.He was about 60 at that time,,when he was young , no one had a sure thing,,no one.

First time I ever seen Wade was at the Golden Cue in Charleston SC. Bill Lawson was with him. Wade was staking Bill against who I can't remember. I was table side and had a real good view. Hard to tell how old Bill was, but I'm guessing mid 60s. Hard to put into words, but Mr. Lawson immediately gave me pause. Took me a while to figure out what it was. He was tall and thin, but... Elegant! I had never seen someone so graceful at the table. He played very well! Everything was hit firm, but the cue ball seemed to be well under control. But his gracefulness is what struck me about him. The way he carried himself, his stroke, stance... all really stood out to me. I've seen a lot of players over the years, but never had the same thought watching them. Got to observe Bill and Wade a lot over the next couple days. They seemed very tight, and talked like they had a lot of history together. Wish I could have watched him play more. Really enjoy the stories! Keep em coming!

 

[jimmyg]

CJ, just curious as to that prop shot you describe? Maximum outside spin and cutting it absolutely as thin as possible?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5tbr4N0P_w

 

[Bob Jewett]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5tbr4N0P_w

I prefer this shot which uses the same technique:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaSKh1PSqok

I'm not sure but I believe this was one of Vernon's shots as well.