Water Buffalo Tips - reality

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
The question on the Schon tips got me thinking, so I'm doing a post to clear it up.

Water Buffalo is (was) the common leather for tips. Period. All Tweeten tips (LePro, Triangle, ElkMaster) are water buffalo, despite odd claims otherwise. I wrote about this in the Tip article. I've talked to Skip Nemecek a few times on this subject. He finds it funny what kind of stories pool players come up with.

Back in the glory years, the famed Champion and Crown tips were also water buffalo. So when people say they use a water buffalo tip today, I generally scratch my head. I have no idea what they mean.

Today, layered tips come in many forms of pig/boar and cow hides.

Schon cues more than likely used Champion tips in the early years. Evan Clarke will correct me if I'm wrong, so I've got a query into him. {EDIT: schon used LePros for the first 12 years and then switched to a similar water buffalo tip}

Btw, traditionally, mozzarella cheese is also from water buffalo, which is why you'll see some mozzarella marketed today as "buffalo mozzarella." It's not from bison.


Freddie <~~~ for the tip truth
 
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qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
You are 100% correct about all those tips being made from water buffalo. When somebody says they are playing with a water buffalo, I automatically assume it's a WB brand tip. Those are what I use & what I currently install on new cues, because they are very close to what the old LePros were. I like Triumph, too.
 

Cornerman

Cue Author...Sometimes
Gold Member
Silver Member
You are 100% correct about all those tips being made from water buffalo. When somebody says they are playing with a water buffalo, I automatically assume it's a WB brand tip. Those are what I use & what I currently install on new cues, because they are very close to what the old LePros were. I like Triumph, too.

Are those WB tips different that the Talisman WB layered tip?
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Damn....I never knew that.
I used Champions with the red backs for years....never liked Elks because they grabbed
too much for my liking.....and would flatten too quickly.....
....and they were all water buffalo?.....:thud:

My champions were straight out of Paris...when the original maker died, the quality went
downhill.
 

mnb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You are 100% correct about all those tips being made from water buffalo. When somebody says they are playing with a water buffalo, I automatically assume it's a WB brand tip. Those are what I use & what I currently install on new cues, because they are very close to what the old LePros were. I like Triumph, too.
do you use the black or the brown WB brand tips?
 

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cuesblues

cue accumulator
Silver Member
You are 100% correct about all those tips being made from water buffalo. When somebody says they are playing with a water buffalo, I automatically assume it's a WB brand tip. Those are what I use & what I currently install on new cues, because they are very close to what the old LePros were. I like Triumph, too.

You always liked those Sumo tips.
I love Kikel cues and Dave Kikel always used Sumo tips.
People ask me why I call Kikel cues psychic, and I said psychic because I know they're going to play bad BEFORE I get the cue.

Seriously though, I wish I knew more about the so-called water buffalo tip.
Ernie Martinez used water buffalo tips in his early years, and they were fantastic.
Ernie Martinez cues that sat around unchalked for 12-years or more still played really good.

Years ago someone sent me some water buffalo tips, soft-medium-hard and they were definitely different than any other non-layered tips I've used.
Never knew the brand or anything, just water buffalo.
I also had a WB tip, I think by Talisman, but I can't remember.
Seems like water buffalo could be the way to go if I knew more about them.
I absolutely hate Lepro tips, regardless of the durometer rating, and I kind of like Triangle.
 

mr3cushion

Regestered User
Gold Member
Silver Member
I have a box of 50 water buffalo tips, (13 mm) made by Adam cues.

Adam-Shooter02.jpg

Very, Very Reasonable price!

Pm me if interested for more info.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
Are those WB tips different that the Talisman WB layered tip?

Night and day. The WB brand is a whole lot like a LePro from 25 years ago, albeit slightly firmer. They hit & feel & look like a broken in LePro. Nothing fancy, just a trusty piece of solid leather.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
do you use the black or the brown WB brand tips?

I generally use black. I have used both but cannot notice a difference in quality or hardness. I assume the black is just a coating to keep the tip sealed until it's installed and cut. Since it may take me a year or more to use up a box of fifty, I opt for the coated tips.
 

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
You always liked those Sumo tips.
I love Kikel cues and Dave Kikel always used Sumo tips.
People ask me why I call Kikel cues psychic, and I said psychic because I know they're going to play bad BEFORE I get the cue.

Seriously though, I wish I knew more about the so-called water buffalo tip.
Ernie Martinez used water buffalo tips in his early years, and they were fantastic.
Ernie Martinez cues that sat around unchalked for 12-years or more still played really good.

Years ago someone sent me some water buffalo tips, soft-medium-hard and they were definitely different than any other non-layered tips I've used.
Never knew the brand or anything, just water buffalo.
I also had a WB tip, I think by Talisman, but I can't remember.
Seems like water buffalo could be the way to go if I knew more about them.
I absolutely hate Lepro tips, regardless of the durometer rating, and I kind of like Triangle.

I LOVED Sumo tips. They were a bit hard, but boy were they good playing tips. Best thing was out of a box of fifty, fifty were good.

If you like a Triangle and find LePro on the soft side, then you'd likely really enjoy a WB. I scuff the bottom to expose the color of the leather, and find the darker ones seem to be the best. They cut the cleanest and hold up well.
 

cuesblues

cue accumulator
Silver Member
I LOVED Sumo tips. They were a bit hard, but boy were they good playing tips. Best thing was out of a box of fifty, fifty were good.

If you like a Triangle and find LePro on the soft side, then you'd likely really enjoy a WB. I scuff the bottom to expose the color of the leather, and find the darker ones seem to be the best. They cut the cleanest and hold up well.


That's funny, the other day a friend of mine said he thinks the light colored ones are
better, but he was obviously confused as usual.

I bought two new Sugartree's from Jamie back in'08.
Both cues had those Super Pro tips.
Your ears had to be ringing that day...%#$*&*&#$...and $@$%/%&#&*#
 

14.1 Forever

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Damn....I never knew that.
I used Champions with the red backs for years....never liked Elks because they grabbed
too much for my liking.....and would flatten too quickly.....
....and they were all water buffalo?.....:thud:

My champions were straight out of Paris...when the original maker died, the quality went
downhill.

I also played with the original Champions... They were great. What would you consider the best playing tip today closest to the original Champions? (14.1 & 1-Pocket.)

Has anyone tried the new McDermitt Navigator tips?

Thanks for any info!
 

Chopdoc

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Water Buffalo is (was) the common leather for tips. Period. All Tweeten tips (LePro, Triangle, ElkMaster) are water buffalo, despite odd claims otherwise.

I thought that was common knowledge.

The difference was in how the leather was treated, how the tip was produced, and also quality control. Still is.

All of this is more complex now with layered tips.

What I am surprised about is that I have not seen transglutaminase discussed in tip production. Maybe it is used or has been experimented with but people don't talk about it? Propreitary secret?

What is it? It is a clotting factor, and enzyme that joins proteins. It is commonly referred to as "meat glue".

https://www.researchgate.net/public...minase_in_Textile_Wool_and_Leather_Processing

If you have had a filet mignon at a chain steak house, there is a good chance it was actually produced using meat glue. Industry secret. :eek:

FYI- If you get the idea to experiment with this stuff it is dangerous and precautions are required.



When somebody says they use a Water Buffalo tip I assume they mean the brand. Maybe I assume too much?

.
 

WildWing

Super Gun Mod
Silver Member
The question on the Schon tips got me thinking, so I'm doing a post to clear it up.

Water Buffalo is (was) the common leather for tips. Period. All Tweeten tips (LePro, Triangle, ElkMaster) are water buffalo, despite odd claims otherwise. I wrote about this in the Tip article. I've talked to Skip Nemecek a few times on this subject. He finds it funny what kind of stories pool players come up with.

Back in the glory years, the famed Champion and Crown tips were also water buffalo. So when people say they use a water buffalo tip today, I generally scratch my head. I have no idea what they mean.

Today, layered tips come in many forms of pig/boar and cow hides.

Schon cues more than likely used Champion tips in the early years. Evan Clarke will correct me if I'm wrong, so I've got a query into him. {EDIT: schon used LePros for the first 12 years and then switched to a similar water buffalo tip}

Btw, traditionally, mozzarella cheese is also from water buffalo, which is why you'll see some mozzarella marketed today as "buffalo mozzarella." It's not from bison.


Freddie <~~~ for the tip truth

Maybe it's a matter of exact time period, but you may want to check the history of the Champion tip. The good ones, for example, made in the 60s and 70s, were calf skin, not water buffalo. At least this is what their recognizable red label box says. Here's one of mine, from the mid 70s. Although I have a few tips on the box in the picture, the words say "Selected calf Skin Leather, Turned By Skilled Hands," then in smaller print, Product of France, and Beware of Imitation. You can see part of the wording, including the word calf. I can take another picture if there's doubt.

Again, might be a different time period you're talking about. There were Champions and Crowns in clear plastic boxes afterwards, and there were Chandivert branded tips after that, which I'm not sure about.

All the best,
WW
 

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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe it's a matter of exact time period, but you may want to check the history of the Champion tip. The good ones, for example, made in the 60s and 70s, were calf skin, not water buffalo. At least this is what their recognizable red label box says. Here's one of mine, from the mid 70s. Although I have a few tips on the box in the picture, the words say "Selected calf Skin Leather, Turned By Skilled Hands," then in smaller print, Product of France, and Beware of Imitation. You can see part of the wording, including the word calf. I can take another picture if there's doubt.

Again, might be a different time period you're talking about. There were Champions and Crowns in clear plastic boxes afterwards, and there were Chandivert branded tips after that, which I'm not sure about.

All the best,
WW
I had those old-school Champions on a R. Black Hoppe. Great tips.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
I also played with the original Champions... They were great. What would you consider the best playing tip today closest to the original Champions? (14.1 & 1-Pocket.)

Has anyone tried the new McDermitt Navigator tips?

Thanks for any info!

Mooris made me change....Ted Harris put one on my Szamboti in the early 90s....
...lasted much longer...and I could cue farther from center with it.
...right now, I have a Sniper on my snooker cue,,,,
..and a Renfro one-piece on my Black.

These three tips are better than Champions...IMO.
It's a good time in history for tips...lotta good choices.

My Mooris are original, BTW...
 
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