What Do You Look For in a Pool Instructor

[WobblyStroke]

In golf and pool you don't hit the exact target every time - you hit within a typical "shot group" area surrounding it, larger or smaller depending on your precision That shot group (your precision) doesn't shrink because you add a curve (in golf) or some squirt (in pool) - it only shrinks as you gain skill. That's why I don't think the "pick a side" technique works in pool and likely not in golf (I know of enough examples of pool pros being wrong to not automatically trust golf pros' opinions either).

pj
chgo

You must not golf much. What you say about a common dispersion of shots or shot group as you put it is true. The reason playing a curve helps a player manage his miss is because it picks a side for that dispersion to be on. Choosing the curve, or just knowing the curve, allows the player to set the edge of the dispersion area. If there is trouble out right, pick a straight line just left of the trouble that you know your draw will move away from. If your miss is a str8 shot (common for good players) then you will be fine with your miss. Every other shot will curve away from trouble towards your intended target. Yes some will overshoot and some will not quite get there so you still have a dispersion of shots, but none of them, save for the dreaded double cross where the player puts the wrong spin on the ball, will be in trouble. Same goes for fades coming off trouble on the left side. As mentioned, Nicklaus played his game as if there was a wall up the left side of the course that he'd never cross, pretty much always hitting a fade and some straight balls, but never curves in the other direction. It is about controlling the nature of your miss.

By contrast, a guy intending to hit a straight ball can get accidental curvature to the left or right and that curvature can be to varying degrees just like the guys playing one shape. He doesn't know which side he will miss on and therefore is forced to play very safe lines to try to avoid trouble.

Simple example with a pin tucked on the left side of the green (favors draws).
The rightee fader aims right at the pin knowing his miss is at the flag and his regular shot has a lot of green to land on.
The rightee draw player aims at the right of the green knowing his str8 miss is fine and his draw takes him towards the pin.
The str8 ball player has one play and that is to put the center of his regular dispersion area far enough right that the left edge stays on the green by the flag and doesn't go off leaving him short sided. Usually that will put him enough right, that many shots will miss the green right. More likely, he will overestimate how tight his dispersion pattern is, choose a more aggressive line, and end up short-sided with a miss left far more often than either the drawers or faders.

Like I said, knowing the curvature of your shot and playing for it to affect where your shot group will land relative to the flag and hazards is vitally important in golf and a very common component of course management.

Again, for pool, knowing for sure which side of the ball you will be striking on and adjusting for that type of spin, even if the amount can vary somewhat, will similarly simplify your adjustments for the shot, tho not nearly to the same degree and that is probably why some pros play this way, not all. ALL golf pros play their shape or a shape that suits the hole if they're comfortable with both. Mo Norman was the only one ever to effectively play a straight shot.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

You must not golf much. What you say about a common dispersion of shots or shot group as you put it is true. The reason playing a curve helps a player manage his miss is because it picks a side for that dispersion to be on. If there is trouble out right, pick a straight line just left of the trouble that you know your draw will move away from. If your miss is a str8 shot (common for good players) then you will be fine with your miss. Every other shot will curve away from trouble towards your intended target. Yes some will overshoot and some will not quite get there so you still have a dispersion of shots, but none of them, save for the dreaded double cross where the player puts the wrong spin on the ball, will be in trouble. Same goes for fades coming off trouble on the left side. As mentioned, Nicklaus played his game as if there was a wall up the left side of the course that he'd never cross, pretty much always hitting a fade and some straight balls, but never curves in the other direction. It is about controlling the nature of your miss.

By contrast, a guy intending to hit a straight ball can get accidental curvature to the left or right and that curvature can be to varying degrees just like the guys playing one shape. He doesn't know which side he will miss on and therefore is forced to play very safe lines to try to avoid trouble.

Simple example with a pin tucked on the left side of the green (favors draws).
The rightee fader aims right at the pin knowing his miss is at the flag and his regular shot has a lot of green to land on.
The rightee draw player aims at the right of the green knowing his str8 miss is fine and his draw takes him towards the pin.
The str8 ball player has one play and that is to put the center of his regular dispersion area far enough right that the left edge stays on the green by the flag and doesn't go off leaving him short sided. Usually that will put him enough right, that many shots will miss the green right.

Like I said, knowing the curvature of your shot and playing for it to affect where your shot group will land relative to the flag and hazards is vitally important in golf and a very common component of course management.

Again, for pool, knowing for sure which side of the ball you will be striking on and adjusting for that type of spin, even if the amount can vary somewhat, will similarly simplify your adjustments for the shot, tho not nearly to the same degree and that is probably why some pros play this way, not all. ALL golf pros play their shape or a shape that suits the hole if they're comfortable with both.

ROTFLMFAO! Not about what you wrote, but what's to come.

 

[WobblyStroke]

What has always seemed obvious to me is that the person that can't hit centerball consistently can't hit a touch of something consistently either.

I'm pretty sure Ronnie, Earl, and Siegel have as tight a dispersion of tip contacts as anybody and yet they always play a trace of side. Even with a bigger dispersion, the idea is that centerball to 1/2 tip right spin is preferable to a dispersion of 1/4 tip left to 1/4 tip right.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

I inquired as to your personal assessment of your ability on the table. The lack of a response on your part could be construed as Rude. Well by a lesser person. Being a better person I can overlook.
So lacking a response I have no way to measure if I am enjoying playing with a peer-or (heaven forbid) better. Shrug
Of course perhaps the mystery keeps me on my best behavior. Right? I mean I haven't been rude,(yet) have I? Do you play for money. My sales pitch is I pay for lessons and of course charge for same. Ya wanna play some 3 ball?

You've not been rude.

My peer comment was directed at others, not you.

I play for money although I make sure I have an absolute lock first, but my wallet serves a family!

 

[JoeyInCali]

I'm pretty sure Ronnie, Earl, and Siegel have as tight a dispersion of tip contacts as anybody and yet they always play a trace of side. Even with a bigger dispersion, the idea is that centerball to 1/2 tip right spin is preferable to a dispersion of 1/4 tip left to 1/4 tip right.

I bet Filler does not believe in that.
He's the master of center axis hitting.
And uses very little English.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I bet Filler does not believe in that.
He's the master of center axis hitting.
And uses very little English.

The only way that can happen is he's an absolute master of reading the table in advance to get the exact correct angles on multiple shots controlled by speed. Efren, Filler, and other top pros have the imagination, insight, and touch for speed to pull it off.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I bet Filler does not believe in that.
He's the master of center axis hitting.
And uses very little English.

I think Lou pretty much nailed it above when he said some stuff will work for some other stuff for others. No absolutes. No 'must be such and such' for everyone.

Filler is a great player and there is no shortage of other great players the play predominantly on the center axis. Ronnie, Earl, and Siegel are all timers. Their methods def work. They work for many others as well. Not everyone has to play the same.

For players in one camp to try and convince the other camp is wrong is foolish. They obv both work. Choose the style that suits you. But be open to knowledge regarding certain shots. When JJ mentioned that he'd struggle to find a pro that didn't hit that open table cut in the side with low outside, I'm sure he wasn't omitting Filler. (if you're struggling to place this example, that was the one that got us started down this rabbit hole in this thread to begin with. musta been many pages ago now lol).

 

[JoeyInCali]

I think Lou pretty much nailed it above when he said some stuff will work for some other stuff for others. No absolutes. No 'must be such and such' for everyone.

Filler is a great player and there is no shortage of other great players the play predominantly on the center axis. Ronnie, Earl, and Siegel are all timers. Their methods def work. They work for many others as well. Not everyone has to play the same.

For players in one camp to try and convince the other camp is wrong is foolish. They obv both work. Choose the style that suits you. But be open to knowledge regarding certain shots. When JJ mentioned that he'd struggle to find a pro that didn't hit that open table cut in the side with low outside, I'm sure he wasn't omitting Filler. (if you're struggling to place this example, that was the one that got us started down this rabbit hole in this thread to begin with. musta been many pages ago now lol).

They play with new cloth and polished balls, so the chance of skidding is not as bad.
Parica is also another advocate of center ball hitting..So is Souquet.

 

[WobblyStroke]

They play with new cloth and polished balls, so the chance of skidding is not as bad.
Parica is also another advocate of center ball hitting..So is Souquet.

Yes, the trace of side style def helps more on less than pristine equipment. But some of the top guys still do it in the best of conditions. It helps them or they wouldn't do it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

What you say about a common dispersion of shots or shot group as you put it is true. The reason playing a curve helps a player manage his miss is because it picks a side for that dispersion to be on.

Whether you curve it or not you're aiming for that shot group to be centered on your target, not to be on one side or another. And the shot group is the same size either way, so the results are identical - except a curved shot is more difficult,

pj
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

Whether you curve it or not you're aiming for that shot group to be centered on your target, not to be on one side or another. And the shot group is the same size either way, so the results are identical - except a curved shot is more difficult,

pj
chgo

Now I know you don't play golf. A straight shot is the single most difficult shot in golf. That's why only ONE GUY ever played one. Everyone else plays a curve. It doesn't need to be a banana shot, but even the str8 looking shots on TV have 1-3yards of curvature.

Most guys now play a certain shape and adjust for that shape. Some play both curves when the hole demands it. Again, the dispersion doesn't need to get smaller. What matters is that you set a hard edge for that dispersion so you can be confident you don't hit to the wrong side of this imaginary barrier. Playing shots in this way allows players to greatly diminish their chances of being in a bad spot while also allowing them to be more aggressive in going after targets. A guy who tries for straight but can get some curve left or right from there cannot be nearly as safe nor aggressive.

 

[ShootingArts]

I'm pretty sure Ronnie, Earl, and Siegel have as tight a dispersion of tip contacts as anybody and yet they always play a trace of side. Even with a bigger dispersion, the idea is that centerball to 1/2 tip right spin is preferable to a dispersion of 1/4 tip left to 1/4 tip right.

I bet Filler does not believe in that.
He's the master of center axis hitting.
And uses very little English.

I hate to break out physics or simple mechanical principles but 1/4 tip right to 1/4 tip left will not give as wide a dispersal as center to 1/2 tip right or center to 1/2 left.

What is more, if we move out to near the limits of tip adhesion before miscue then the difference between 1/2 error on either side and 100% error on the steeper side becomes huge. Now the error on either side may be acceptable while the 100% error on one side may be a miscue! Everything above is simply the results of two rounded surfaces making contact.

I spent so much time gambling at the closest bar that I built a nice gambling spot largely around myself. As a result, when I didn't feel like a ten mile or so trip each way deep into Baton Rouge I usually played on bar tables. Much of my gambling was done on these. Most six or eight hour sessions had me needing more than a half tip of side less than three times, I would have bet less than four at start of play any given night. After some long sessions or when I made it a goal when starting, I never used side spin to speak of.

This isn't to say I didn't use spin most nights. I typically rolled up behind the money ball for a tap in just to demonstrate I could. However, even that often didn't involve spin. Speed and angles is a far more powerful tool than speed and spin.

When you really develop using angles much in the way of spin isn't needed. There were six or eight hour sessions when I never spun the cue ball. That isn't to say I didn't hit a little high or low or even a little side when it helped the shot. It is to say I went months without miscuing, couldn't remember the last time I had. You can't miscue hitting centerball or very near centerball. My high and low were pretty conservative too.

It is easier to play spot shape with speed and angles than it is to play spot shape with speed and spin beyond a tiny amount. Unfortunately since we can't agree with what the first tip of english is it becomes impossible to communicate with our usual terms. I'll say my side was normally a tenth of a cue shaft or less. Combined with high and low the slight side seemed to help the cue ball roll freely and unless a particular shot called for stun I liked the cue ball and object balls to roll freely.

Once I would have guarded secrets but I have learned that the only ones that will believe already know what they are being told.

Hu

 

[BasementDweller]

You're making some interesting points but you're also assuming why top pool players use so much english. Top players aren't playing most of their shots with English when English isn't positionally necessary in order to predict their miss hit of the cue ball, they do it because it gives them a more predictable cue ball/object ball interaction. That seems to be an entirely different thing than what you're explaining happens in golf. A closer pool comparison would be the purposeful over cut (to the the "pro side) that often happens on thin cuts. Still not a perfect comparison, but closer.

If top pool players actually purposely miss hit the cue ball for predictive reasons, then it follows that they would do this on straight-in shots, but I'm guessing none of them do this.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A straight shot is the single most difficult shot in golf.

That just means it's difficult to get the shot to go perfectly straight, not that it's less accurate. A curved shot misses to the left or right just as often and just as widely - unless that's the only kind you practice.

I get why it seems otherwise...

pj
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

You're making some interesting points but you're also assuming why top pool players use so much english. Top players aren't playing most of their shots with English when English isn't positionally necessary in order to predict their miss hit of the cue ball, they do it because it gives them a more predictable cue ball/object ball interaction. That seems to be an entirely different thing than what you're explaining happens in golf. A closer pool comparison would be the purposeful over cut (to the the "pro side) that often happens on thin cuts. Still not a perfect comparison, but closer.

If top pool players actually purposely miss hit the cue ball for predictive reasons, then it follows that they would do this on straight-in shots, but I'm guessing none of them do this.

Oh i've mentioned the different ball interaction too. This has been going on a while. It's up there in one of the first ones lol.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

That just means it's difficult to get the shot to go perfectly straight, not that it's less accurate. A curved shot misses to the left or right just as often and just as widely - unless that's the only kind you practice.

I get why it seems otherwise...

pj
chgo

No, you don't get it at all.

 

[gregcantrall]

The Outer Limits was a favorite TV show when I was a Yute. My fitness program has me exploring my limits.
I have a simple challenge that is repeatable and of course not a valid test, well because you know some tables have bad rails and the sun's coming up and we'll I can't blame the chalk because none is allowed. Don't forget windage. :shrug
The challenge: Place an object ball on the foot spot. Place the cue ball on the head spot. Kick off the foot rail to pocket the object ball. Simple
In my world making 3 in a row would warrant the title of, "Kicks Like A Mule" or I guess Kangaroo would be appropriate for the down under crew.

 

[WobblyStroke]

That just means it's difficult to get the shot to go perfectly straight, not that it's less accurate. A curved shot misses to the left or right just as often and just as widely - unless that's the only kind you practice.

I get why it seems otherwise...

pj
chgo

No. Nicklaus almost never missed left. That's the point. His 'miss' was a straight shot along his initial line of aim. His expected shot was a fade away to the right. While the overall dispersion may end up the same, by playing the curve he takes away the miss to the left.

I think I get what you mean in that he can have a little less or little more curvature to the shot and be either left or right of where he expects it end up. But that's not how the shot is played. He sets a hard edge on the left side that he can be confident his ball won't go left of, then he hits a curve that moves away from that edge.

edit: re the str8 shot being as accurate. Again this is off a bit because of how most people play curves. As an example, with my draw (right to left spin), when my club face and path are fairly close together the curvature remains relatively small. My misses are either a str8 shot to the right where my clubface and clubpath match up to the right OR a bigger curve which starts out farther right than I intended when both the face and path go further right of where I wanted. So of the 3 shots I get one just right and it takes a straightish baby draw to the fairway. I miss one to the just off right rough with the straight shot. My other miss starts farther out right but also curves more and ends up in the fairway as well. It is passed off as intentional, but I know I messed up both the face and path.

Long story short, you increase your margin of error playing the curve.
Another example.... Str8 hitter aims middle of the fairway and now has half a fairway to the rough in either direction before he's in the rough. A fader who always fades and rarely hits a str8 shot (what amateurs call a baby fade) lines up along the left edge of the fairway and now has a full fairway to curve into before reaching the rough.

It's better to play curved ball flights. If it wasn't there'd be more than one guy in the history of the game to play a str8 ball at the top level.

 

[BasementDweller]

No. Nicklaus almost never missed left. That's the point. His 'miss' was a straight shot along his initial line of aim. His expected shot was a fade away to the right. While the overall dispersion may end up the same, by playing the curve he takes away the miss to the left.

I think I get what you mean in that he can have a little less or little more curvature to the shot and be either left or right of where he expects it end up. But that's not how the shot is played. He sets a hard edge on the left side that he can be confident his ball won't go left of, then he hits a curve that moves away from that edge.

I think PJ is pointing out that the logic is still flawed. I think the difference may be mechanical. In pool you pretty much have the same stroke and just adjust the speed. You really don't ever want to pull or push your stroke closer to or away from your body. Not a golfer, but it seems clear that top level golf includes manipulating the club face. If this is true, focusing on only potentially opening or closing the club face would at least intuitively make sense to me.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

No. Nicklaus almost never missed left. That's the point. His 'miss' was a straight shot along his initial line of aim. His expected shot was a fade away to the right. While the overall dispersion may end up the same, by playing the curve he takes away the miss to the left.

I think I get what you mean in that he can have a little less or little more curvature to the shot and be either left or right of where he expects it end up. But that's not how the shot is played. He sets a hard edge on the left side that he can be confident his ball won't go left of, then he hits a curve that moves away from that edge.

Here's another example. Golfer is aiming at the dead center of the fairway trying to hit a straight shot. His clubhead path or club face position at impact can cause it to go either left or right if open or closed. He only has 1/2 of the fairway to the left or right to hit, otherwise it's in the rough. If he aims at the left or right side of the fairway and has the skills to move it to the left or right while blocking out one side or the other, he has the entire fairway to play with if it's a miss.