Where does SVB rank all time?

ShootingHank

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think he's mid tier or bottom for an American great. He is considered one of the greatest of all time due to domination but he has lost some matches he shouldn't be losing. Some say he's a choker and some say he gets coached through his listening device.

Where do you have him ranked?

For me in no partcular order:

Mosconi
Greenleaf
Strickland
Efren
Ronnie O'Sullivan
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think he's mid tier or bottom for an American great. He is considered one of the greatest of all time due to domination but he has lost some matches he shouldn't be losing. Some say he's a choker and some say he gets coached through his listening device.

Where do you have him ranked?

For me in no partcular order:

Mosconi
Greenleaf
Strickland
Efren
Ronnie O'Sullivan
you are free to share your thoughts about this for sure. No matter how stupid they are.
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think he's mid tier or bottom for an American great. He is considered one of the greatest of all time due to domination but he has lost some matches he shouldn't be losing. Some say he's a choker and some say he gets coached through his listening device.

Where do you have him ranked?

For me in no partcular order:

Mosconi
Greenleaf
Strickland
Efren
Ronnie O'Sullivan
You're delusional. Are you on meds? If not you might try some.
 

sjm

Sweating it at Derby City
Silver Member
It's just too tough to compare the straight pool era to the nine ball era in pool.

In the straight pool era, the top five are surely Mosconi, Greenleaf, Crane, Sigel and Mizerak, but nearly all the straight poolers of that era were American. Of course, Luther Lassiter and Harold Worst may have been better than all of them if all-around play is the measure.

The nine ball era is much harder to gauge, but however you look at it, Shane's name is in the mix for greatest ever. There were two especially noteworthy crossover stars from the straight pool era in Sigel and Varner, who continued to be world beaters even when the primary pro game was changed. Each is in the conversation for greatest ever American player.

Shane's excellence at the US Open 9-ball and the Derby City Classic evidence just how great he has been on home soil. He has not fared nearly as well overseas, and in the large field, WPA sanctioned events offering the most elite fields in our sport's history (World 9-ball, China Open 9-ball, US Open 9-ball, All Japan 9-ball), he has never won an overseas title. That said, however, he has won silver at the World championships, bronze at the China Open. and bronze at the All-Japan, so he has, at times, excelled overseas even though the biggest titles have eluded him.

His name deserves to be alongside all-time legends like Sigel, Varner, and Strickland, Reyes and Pagulayan, but where he fits in the hierarchy of the nine ball era is not so easy to gauge. I suspect that if I made this list on some other day it might look different, but my hierarchy for this era of pool is:

Efren Reyes
Mike Sigel
Earl Strickland
Shane Van Boening
Alex Pagulayan
Nick Varner
Ralf Souquet
Johnny Archer
Buddy Hall

Throw out all the qualitative stuff. Greatness is measured in titles. Always has been, always will be. Shane's resume of titles validates that he's one of the all time greats.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It's just too tough to compare the straight pool era to the nine ball era in pool.

In the straight pool era, the top five are surely Mosconi, Greenleaf, Crane, Sigel and Mizerak, but nearly all the straight poolers of that era were American. Of course, Luther Lassiter and Harold Worst may have been better than all of them if all-around play is the measure.

The nine ball era is much harder to gauge, but however you look at it, Shane's name is in the mix for greatest ever. There were two especially noteworthy crossover stars form the straight pool era in Sigel and Varner, who continued to be world beaters even when the primary pro game was changed. Each is in the conversation for greatest ever American player.

Shane's excellence at the US Open 9-ball and the Derby City Classic evidence just how great he has been on home soil. He has not fared nearly as well overseas, and in the large field, WPA sanctioned events offering the most elite fields in our sport's history (World 9-ball, China Open 9-ball, US Open 9-ball, All Japan 9-ball), he has never won an overseas title. That said, however, he has won silver at the World championships, bronze at the China Open. and bronze at the All-Japan, so he has, at times, excelled overseas even though the biggest titles have eluded him.

His name deserves to be alongside all-time legends like Sigel, Varner, and Strickland, Reyes and Pagulayan, but where he fits it the hierarchy of the nine ball era is not so easy to gauge. I suspect that if I made this list on some other day it might look different, but my hierarchy for this era of pool is:

Efren Reyes
Mike Sigel
Earl Strickland
Shane Van Boening
Alex Pagulayan
Nick Varner
Ralf Souquet
Johnny Archer
Buddy Hall

Throw out all the qualitative stuff. Greatness is measured in titles. Always has been, always will be. Shane's resume of titles validates that he's one of the all time greats.
Exactly. Well said Stu.
 

ChicagoRJ

EEEEEXCELLENT ;)
Silver Member
I think he's mid tier or bottom for an American great. He is considered one of the greatest of all time due to domination but he has lost some matches he shouldn't be losing. Some say he's a choker and some say he gets coached through his listening device.

Where do you have him ranked?

For me in no partcular order:

Mosconi
Greenleaf
Strickland
Efren
Ronnie O'Sullivan
Right, because Varner, and others won all their matches. LMAO
Nobody says he's a choker and certainly nobody is accusing him of being a cheater... I mean, other than you just did.

SVB is a top 10 American player of all time imho. The tournament wins confirm that.
 

BlueRaider

Registered
It's just too tough to compare the straight pool era to the nine ball era in pool.

In the straight pool era, the top five are surely Mosconi, Greenleaf, Crane, Sigel and Mizerak, but nearly all the straight poolers of that era were American. Of course, Luther Lassiter and Harold Worst may have been better than all of them if all-around play is the measure.

The nine ball era is much harder to gauge, but however you look at it, Shane's name is in the mix for greatest ever. There were two especially noteworthy crossover stars form the straight pool era in Sigel and Varner, who continued to be world beaters even when the primary pro game was changed. Each is in the conversation for greatest ever American player.

Shane's excellence at the US Open 9-ball and the Derby City Classic evidence just how great he has been on home soil. He has not fared nearly as well overseas, and in the large field, WPA sanctioned events offering the most elite fields in our sport's history (World 9-ball, China Open 9-ball, US Open 9-ball, All Japan 9-ball), he has never won an overseas title. That said, however, he has won silver at the World championships, bronze at the China Open. and bronze at the All-Japan, so he has, at times, excelled overseas even though the biggest titles have eluded him.

His name deserves to be alongside all-time legends like Sigel, Varner, and Strickland, Reyes and Pagulayan, but where he fits it the hierarchy of the nine ball era is not so easy to gauge. I suspect that if I made this list on some other day it might look different, but my hierarchy for this era of pool is:

Efren Reyes
Mike Sigel
Earl Strickland
Shane Van Boening
Alex Pagulayan
Nick Varner
Ralf Souquet
Johnny Archer
Buddy Hall

Throw out all the qualitative stuff. Greatness is measured in titles. Always has been, always will be. Shane's resume of titles validates that he's one of the all time greats.
I'm glad you gave him some credit for these tournaments (and add two second place finishes at the World Pool Masters along with two wins). I know there's not much glory for coming in 2nd or 3rd, but from a "pool player trying to make a living perspective," there's plenty of glory in taking home a nice paycheck and collecting plenty of scalps--typically of other elite players--along the way.
 

ShootingHank

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yea....I think factoring opponents is fair.

The past players were playing with inferior equipment in their primes. They were practically 21oz baseball bats.
 

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
Who was the best has been discussed over and over.
My take is if you take the 50 best of all time and put them in competition all dead in their prime week after week there still would be no clear cut best.
With the above in mind, it's important to consider staying power because you could grab 1000 players from their best short period of excellence and they can beat anyone. In the US, out of the old timers I would say Greenleaf and Mosconi had the longest runs of top flight play.

It's tough not to consider Archer's run from the 90's into the 2000's a top contender as well. Shane has been going for nearly 2 decades and shows no signs of slowing yet.

There are easily quantifiable reasons that Shane doesn't perform as well overseas, but it's not my place to air his laundry, especially 2nd hand (even though from a reputable source). However, throwing out at least two 2nd place finishes and top 16 or better in practically EVERY overseas tourney he's played in needs to not be overlooked.

Jaden
 

jay helfert

Shoot Pool, not people
Gold Member
Silver Member
It's just too tough to compare the straight pool era to the nine ball era in pool.

In the straight pool era, the top five are surely Mosconi, Greenleaf, Crane, Sigel and Mizerak, but nearly all the straight poolers of that era were American. Of course, Luther Lassiter and Harold Worst may have been better than all of them if all-around play is the measure.

The nine ball era is much harder to gauge, but however you look at it, Shane's name is in the mix for greatest ever. There were two especially noteworthy crossover stars form the straight pool era in Sigel and Varner, who continued to be world beaters even when the primary pro game was changed. Each is in the conversation for greatest ever American player.

Shane's excellence at the US Open 9-ball and the Derby City Classic evidence just how great he has been on home soil. He has not fared nearly as well overseas, and in the large field, WPA sanctioned events offering the most elite fields in our sport's history (World 9-ball, China Open 9-ball, US Open 9-ball, All Japan 9-ball), he has never won an overseas title. That said, however, he has won silver at the World championships, bronze at the China Open. and bronze at the All-Japan, so he has, at times, excelled overseas even though the biggest titles have eluded him.

His name deserves to be alongside all-time legends like Sigel, Varner, and Strickland, Reyes and Pagulayan, but where he fits it the hierarchy of the nine ball era is not so easy to gauge. I suspect that if I made this list on some other day it might look different, but my hierarchy for this era of pool is:

Efren Reyes
Mike Sigel
Earl Strickland
Shane Van Boening
Alex Pagulayan
Nick Varner
Ralf Souquet
Johnny Archer
Buddy Hall

Throw out all the qualitative stuff. Greatness is measured in titles. Always has been, always will be. Shane's resume of titles validates that he's one of the all time greats.
I pretty much agree with the players you list above, although the OP was asking only about the American greats. Typically, in the modern era of Pool (post Hustler 1960) there have been one or two dominant American players during each time frame. In the 60's that would have been Lassiter in 9-Ball and Straight Pool, Eddie Taylor in Banks and Taylor, Boston Shorty and Ronnie Allen in One Pocket. Harold Worst was like a shooting star who went right to the top and then was gone just as quickly (regretably!). Ed Kelly was considered the best All Around player of that era. When 9-Ball became the dominant tournament game in the 1970's and beyond, Buddy Hall began his hierarchy, along with the emerging Mike Sigel. Steve Mizerak was the king of Straight Pool and Ronnie still dominated One Pocket. In the 1980's, Buddy had to share the top dog honors with Sigel, Varner, Mizerak and Strickland. Buddy and Strickland held court into the 90's, as Sigel began to bow out and Johnny Archer emerged as the man to beat. Varner was right there too, winning his share. The 80's and 90's were a very competitive era in American pro pool, with many other good players (Rempe, Davenport, Howard and Hopkins) capable of sometimes knocking off the big guns. The early 2000's saw the slow drop off in Archer and Buddy's game, as Earl and Varner continued their winning ways. Shane came along in the 2010's to change everything.

How I rate all these guys overall for their respective dominance.

1. Harold Worst - Brief though it was. Probably the best poolplayer I ever saw. He had no weakness anywhere or at any time.
2. Luther Lassiter - He really dominated 9-Ball and Straight Pool at a time when there were many great players.
3. Buddy Hall - For his longevity on top.
4. Earl Strickland - Absolutely the best tournament 9-Ball player ever! A speed above the rest.
5. Mike Sigel - He knew how to win, over and over again. Unbeatable if he got to the Finals.
6. Steve Mizerak - He was not just a Straight Pool player! He was at the very top in 9-Ball and One Pocket as well.
7. Nick Varner - He got the most out of his game, clawing his way to the top echelon.
8. Johnny Archer - Our best 9-Ball player, along with Earl and Buddy for a long time.

Where does Shane rank along with these great players. Right now I would put him somewhere in the middle of the pack. Unfortunately he has dominated American pool when the overall level of his competition is much lower than what these guys faced. Unlike the players I have listed, Shane has had to cut his teeth on a greatly increased level of competition that comes from abroad. Sigel, Varner, Earl and Archer fared well against a lesser field of international competitors. Basically it was only the Filipinos (Efren, Parica, Luat et al) that gave them trouble. The Euros were only starting to make waves in the 90's and the Chinese came along a decade later.

This is my first take on this and I may adjust it accordingly as I think about it more. All eight players that I listed above were among the greatest of their respective eras. That is without question. Buddy emerged in the 1970's and stayed at or near the top until the 2000's. For over 30 years he was at or near the top of his field. Varner and Earl are second to him in longevity. Lassiter also enjoyed a long illustrious career, winning tournaments into his 50's.
 
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