Which safe to play

[RedGuru]

Sorry, Shockwave doesn't work too well under a wrapper in linux. Anyway. my opponent just missed the 9, in an 8 ball game and left me this shot on the 8. Both the 11 and 8 are froze to the rail. Do I pocket the 9 or do I push the 11 into the 8 ,both options giving my opponent ball in hand.

 

[RSB-Refugee]

CueTable Help

Hmmm, that's a tough one.

Tracy

 

[Actionhound]

i would thin the ball and go two rails and stick him up... but thats just me...

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Against any competent player, you're screwed no matter what you do. Honestly, your best bet is to keep things tied up. I wouldn't pocket the other ball since he would then have BIH and the luxury of worrying only about what's infront of him. I would shoot at that 9-ball, though. Drive it to the other side of the table to complicate matters a bit. That way, if you do give him an open table, he may have to travel a bit to get out.

Really, you're hoping for a mistake (or a few, to be precise). Imagine what check-mate would be and you'll soon realize what you'll need to have happen in order to get there. Eventually, you'll want to try to safe him behind that 8-ball, right? Make sure when you drive the 9-ball to the other side of the table, that the hook behind the 8-ball is live.

 

[RedGuru]

Against any competent player, you're screwed no matter what you do. Honestly, your best bet is to keep things tied up. I wouldn't pocket the other ball since he would then have BIH and the luxury of worrying only about what's infront of him. I would shoot at that 9-ball, though. Drive it to the other side of the table to complicate matters a bit. That way, if you do give him an open table, he may have to travel a bit to get out.

Really, you're hoping for a mistake (or a few, to be precise). Imagine what check-mate would be and you'll soon realize what you'll need to have happen in order to get there. Eventually, you'll want to try to safe him behind that 8-ball, right? Make sure when you drive the 9-ball to the other side of the table, that the hook behind the 8-ball is live.

I knew I was screwed when I ran the first seven and missed the 8.

From then on out it was him making a couple balls then playing cat & mouse with me. I pocketed his 9 ball, he made a really decent cross-corner shot on the 11, and he finished out the game. I like your idea of bringing the 9 back up the table. I really didn't think he had it in him to make the cross-corner bank on the 11.

 

[RSB-Refugee]

Really, you're hoping for a mistake (or a few, to be precise).

This isn't a high percentage, but it is an effort.

START(%Ho0D0%Iq9X4%Kl7D2%PS9D6%WD2L7%XS0E2%YP9Z8%ZC1M2%
[r7F5%\Q5[2%]p8D5%^s1E9)END

It looks like the eight is frozen to the rail, so you have to get the eleven to the rail, without giving it a clear path to the corner. This is definitely a "Hail Mary" shot.

Tracy

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

This isn't a high percentage, but it is an effort.

START(%Ho0D0%Iq9X4%Kl7D2%PS9D6%WD2L7%XS0E2%YP9Z8%ZC1M2%
[r7F5%\Q5[2%]p8D5%^s1E9)END

It looks like the eight is frozen to the rail, so you have to get the eleven to the rail, without giving it a clear path to the corner. This is definitely a "Hail Mary" shot.

Tracy

Even in your hail-mary attempt, you're leaving the 9-ball. This is why I recommend driving the 9-ball up table before attempting a safety. That way, when you go for the hail-mary safe (like the one you illustrated) you'll likely get rewarded for your efforts. You're right, it is low-percentage and as I stated initially, this is normally a lost-cause scenario against any competent player. However, if you want to make things complex, get that 9-ball far away before doing anything else. Once that's done, there are MANY paths that will get you that result. From the cue-ball's current position, I like the 2-rail route but that's me. The point (which I think we have both shown) is that the safety is live from anywhere on the table.

 

[RSB-Refugee]

Even in your hail-mary attempt, you're leaving the 9-ball. This is why I recommend driving the 9-ball up table before attempting a safety. That way, when you go for the hail-mary safe (like the one you illustrated) you'll likely get rewarded for your efforts. You're right, it is low-percentage and as I stated initially, this is normally a lost-cause scenario against any competent player. However, if you want to make things complex, get that 9-ball far away before doing anything else. Once that's done, there are MANY paths that will get you that result. From the cue-ball's current position, I like the 2-rail route but that's me. The point (which I think we have both shown) is that the safety is live from anywhere on the table.

I'm sure you are right. My thought was, give him the easy nine and hope he messes up the safety on the eleven.

Tracy

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I'm sure you are right. My thought was, give him the easy nine and hope he messes up the safety on the eleven.

Tracy

No, your idea is definitely valid and it's the type of creative thinking that can be very effective in 8-ball. You really do need to think outside the box. You combine your idea and mine and you have a genuine chance.

 

[RSB-Refugee]

No, your idea is definitely valid and it's the type of creative thinking that can be very effective in 8-ball. You really do need to think outside the box. You combine your idea and mine and you have a genuine chance.

I just wish, my kicking was as good as, my outside the box thinking. I'm sure it could be pulled off, but I wouldn't like my chances, on this one.

Tracy

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I just wish, my kicking was as good as, my outside the box thinking. I'm sure it could be pulled off, but I wouldn't like my chances, on this one.

Tracy

but that's also part of the beauty of this situation especially if your opponent has other problems to contend with. You will actually get multiple tries at the same shot and be able to make adjustments each time. Yes, it's tough to nail but you may get 3 tries at it.

 

[Cory in DC]

I knew I was screwed when I ran the first seven and missed the 8.

From then on out it was him making a couple balls then playing cat & mouse with me. I pocketed his 9 ball, he made a really decent cross-corner shot on the 11, and he finished out the game. I like your idea of bringing the 9 back up the table. I really didn't think he had it in him to make the cross-corner bank on the 11.

I'd say that you played the right move against this particular opponent -- he took the cross-corner bank. Depending on his skill, that's between an 40% and 90% shot, even with BIH. That means you had a 10-60% shot of winning from a pretty hopeless position. It just didn't pan out this time.

In fact, I think against most league players, making the 9 is the right shot, because you want to force them to move the 11 for you. You're not afraid of them safeing to separate the 8 and 11 because you'll likely either be able to tap the 11 back onto the 8 or have a reasonably high percentage kick at the 8.

But Jude's solution is more elegant, and right against a better opponent. That said, there's some risk there as well--the opponent might be able to put the 9 near the 8 and 11, and protect it at the same time. E.g., something like this. It's not an easy shot, but even if you don't execute it quite right, the other guy kicks or banks the 9 out and then you get to try again. So you may get several tries at different versions of this shot. Once stripes gets BIH with both balls by the 8, it's over.

Cory

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Once stripes gets BIH with both balls by the 8, it's over.

Cory

The point you make above is actually far better than your diagram. No point in risking an accidental pocket (some leagues require you to shoot again like in 9-ball) or moving balls that need not be moved. Just park it nearby and you can set-up a break-shot. Even the threat of a break-shot will force your opponent to take drastic measures.

 

[Cory in DC]

The point you make above is actually far better than your diagram. No point in risking an accidental pocket (some leagues require you to shoot again like in 9-ball) or moving balls that need not be moved. Just park it nearby and you can set-up a break-shot. Even the threat of a break-shot will force your opponent to take drastic measures.

I agree--the diagram is a pretty agressive illustration. However, it is a shot that comes up reasonably often in 1-pocket (two-rails into your hole, protecting it with balls along the long rail), so if you play that shot a lot then hitting the bank wide and with pocket speed should be doable. My thinking is to not just make kicking the 9 out tough, but nearly impossible.

That said, I agree that the the reak key is to just get it close while being 100% certain of not making it or hitting the other balls with any speed. Given that, make the kick-out/bank-out (i.e., "drastic measures") as tough as possible.

Cory

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

For the record, I just wanted to say that although I play 9-ball most of the time and I consider myself to be an aggressive player, I really do enjoy talking 8-ball defensive strategy, especially when it comes to bizarre situations.