cueman said:
And that's the way it should be here. Anyone can add positive responses to a post but there are some that should be deleted and a pm for a warning and why it was deleted.
Why do cue makers do this
- Thread starter Travis Niklich
- Start date
And that's the way it should be here. Anyone can add positive responses to a post but there are some that should be deleted and a pm for a warning and why it was deleted.
WheatCues
Banned
JoeyInCali said:
I was referring to the end result..... in this particular case it's the cuemaker's finished product in the judging hands of the customer !
Sorry for the confusion... "the proof is in the pudding" is an old saying down here in the South !
- Eddie Wheat
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The bottom line for any cue price is supply and demand. If the demand is high, usually the price is as well. If a cue maker takes a cue and sells it cheap to a dealer and the dealer makes a lot more money, why shouldn't the cue maker sell the cue and make that money? I have no problem paying high dollar for cues I like. Do I Sell my cues high? no, not really. Would I if someone was willing to pay it? hell ya! I would love to get 1000.00 for a simple cue. It's not price gouging if someone is willing to pay the price. Rarely does any cue cost more than 100.00 in parts to build unless it's got ivory handles. You aren't paying for the sum of parts. you are paying for the work from that cue makers hands. It's that simple. If you don't lke the price, don't buy the cue.
WheatCues
Banned
Matthys said:
I have to disagree with you... just becasue your cues are hot doesn't mean you have to charge more for them "that's just taking advantage of the market and the customer and being greedy"...
You stated that if someone is willing to pay a 1000.00 for one of your simple cues that you WOULD sell it to them for that ???
So if a beginner walked into your shop with ZERO knowledge of equipment costs and sees that plain cue in question and says wow a custom built cue made from scratch...that must cost atleast a 1000.00 and I assume your response would be "SOLD, CONGRATULATIONS !" to him....
In my opinion that is just plain wrong and bad business ethics and I personally do NOT charge what I think the customer's worth... I sleep well at night and live by KARMA completely and simply cannot justify taking advantage of someone just becasue you can !!!
Now mabey I'm taking your post the wrong way.. which I hope I am becasue I don't know you and if that be the case then I appologize ... but if I am perceiving you correctly than I think that's a pretty self destructive post for a cuemaker to present to the AZ public...attesting that he would happily take considerably more money if offered for a single cue at anytime and feel good about it !
I'm not trying to start anything, I'm more or less just trying to understand the mentality behind the statement....
Thanks, Eddie WHeat
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Ah, so the flippers can make more money than the man who made the cue.WheatCues said:
WheatCues
Banned
JoeyInCali said:
No... I don't support the flipper's either !!!!
I personally think all custom cues should be sold directly by the cuemaker alone and if someone wants to sell their cue after they receive it from hime than so be it !
But atleast the cuemaker looks honest and maintains his dignity....
We can't stop other's from selling our work but atleast the price started out realistic and modest !
This would also keep the prices somewhat consistant in the long run I think... and strike a blow to the professional flippers who only see the $$$ and exploit everyone's hardwork just to make a buck !
I personally do NOT like the secondary market and think it directly effects the initial price of the cue and forces the hand due to the nature of the beast....
So if the cuemakers took every precaution to prohibit their hardwork from being exploited then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now !
- Eddie Wheat
How I wish I can have all that wisdom.WheatCues said:
Retired refrigeration mechanic and would never quote what I paid for parts. Markup was part of doing business. Never let customer supply parts. You want to supply parts fix your own icemaker, walk in freezer, etc. Same with cues. Anyone can buy some parts but knowledge builds the cue. I think current cue makers do a hellof a job and desrve everypenny they get. Some build sneakys and lower end cues. Some build much more elaborite cues with higher priced materials. All cues dont take the same time.All cues dont cost the same in materials. All overhead is not the same from shop to shop. All EXPERIENCE levels are not the same from cue maker to cue maker. Reputations takes years to build and demand of some cue makers creates slightly higher prices. Bottom line is if you get $650 then tats what your cue is worth. Your competitor might get $800 for the samecue. Then thats what his cue is worth. Again to all, thanks for the great hit and thanks for the great looking cues.
WheatCues
Banned
JoeyInCali said:
Joey,
Out of all fairness here... I never got involved in all that hoopla, from a player standpoint or a cuemaker... I never collected cues or became remotely interested in the secondary market... so all I have to offer is my observation and experiences of firsthand knowledge from fellow players and cuemakers !!!
However, I DO know that I NEVER want to see MY cues on the secondary market becasue that tells me two things about the customer I made that cue for : they didn't like it or they needed the money and had to sell it !
So please forgive my inexperience with that particular aspect of the cuemaking industry and I for one hope that it never becomes relevent to me...
Take care, Eddie Wheat
WheatCues said:
Eddie, flippers aside, the sad truth is often times It really has nothing to do with how good of a cue you build, It's no secret that alot of decent players use certain substances to help them hang in there during long matchups. Often times these players have their ups and downs or highs and lows, and eventually hit bottom. often it goes in cycles, they stay clean for while, or just for recreation once a week, and that's probably when they actually have the cash to buy a cue in the first place, but eventually the addiction takes over, and gets out of hand again. When this happens they loose their employment, possibly even their housing situation as a result, and sometimes pawn everything until there's nothing left to pawn except for their best cue. I don't care how dependent they are on a certain cue to maintain their level of play, If they fall far enough from grace, they will eventually pawn It too. It has nothing to do with how well the cue was matched to them. It's unrealistic to not expect one of your cues to hit the secondary market. I'd even lay cold cash down on that as a fact. I'm sure It's not much different in other areas from what I've heard or seen, but if You've been a player in this state for any amount of time then I'm sure you can relate to what I'm saying. There seems to be more people like that then there's not. I don't judge, addiction is a terrible thing, and Most of us have our own demons, I personally know that many are decent people, but when they hit bottom, everything is for sale or pawn.
My cue maker has even showed me what some parts of my cue cost. I could buy it at his price but what would I have? A bunch of parts that I dont know what the hell to do with. I could buy a blank, but I wouldnt know jack crap about assembling the ringwork, the handle, buttsleeve, etc. and then turning it. You might could put some of the parts together but you would probably have a wobbly ass goofy ass looking cue that cant shoot straight. So I'm more than happy to pay my cue maker any price he wants to do all of this plus put inlays in my cue and put a custom wrap job, etc.
I could buy all the parts to build a car engine but I dont have a clue on how to do it, so what good does it do me to buy it at discounted prices if I cant put it together? In the end the cuemaker still makes as much as he wants to IMO. They are the professionals, not me. Thats why I'm paying them for a service. Even to start a small cue making operation is out the roof and then you still have to LEARN how to make cues or even assemble them. So you could spend all that money and never learn how to make a cue.
Thats all that needs to be said IMHO. Hell I could buy a cheap block of Amboyna Burl but all I have is a square piece of wood. Kinda hard to shoot with that
Some people will NEVER grasp the concept of how hard it is to build cues.
I could buy all the parts to build a car engine but I dont have a clue on how to do it, so what good does it do me to buy it at discounted prices if I cant put it together? In the end the cuemaker still makes as much as he wants to IMO. They are the professionals, not me. Thats why I'm paying them for a service. Even to start a small cue making operation is out the roof and then you still have to LEARN how to make cues or even assemble them. So you could spend all that money and never learn how to make a cue.
hotrod said:
Thats all that needs to be said IMHO. Hell I could buy a cheap block of Amboyna Burl but all I have is a square piece of wood. Kinda hard to shoot with that
Some people will NEVER grasp the concept of how hard it is to build cues.Might as well post my new sneaky pricing. $2850.00 with imitation ivory Hoppe ring. One shaft...tip your choice $150 extra. FREE SHIPPING!
Here is the perfect example:
I redid my kitchen cabinets 2 years ago solid maple Omega cabinets cost 9k installed by a friend for 1k Total cost 10k
If the local master cabinetmaker did it
http://kenyonwoodworking.com/home/home.htm
it would have cost me 50k
I think the pictures on his website should explain why.
I redid my kitchen cabinets 2 years ago solid maple Omega cabinets cost 9k installed by a friend for 1k Total cost 10k
If the local master cabinetmaker did it
http://kenyonwoodworking.com/home/home.htm
it would have cost me 50k
I think the pictures on his website should explain why.
WheatCues
Banned
Cue Crazy said:
Actually, I have had one of my cues I built for a customer end up in pawn shop due to a drug addiction problem he developed....
But I was referring to intentionally selling the cue because the customer didnt like it or just wanting to make a profit off of it....
I know there are certain factors than cannot be overlooked but I was referring to the secondary market as far as intentional motives rather than circumstancial ones..
Take care, Eddie Wheat
WheatCues said:
Well in that case, You know the saying- no matter how hard you try You can't please everyone. All one can do is try their best. There is also the minority of people that may never be fully satisfied with any cue, and will trade up and down for the duration of Their life, never finding the perfect cue.
I Feel if someone intends to make profit, then It's only right that they are forthcoming, and let You know ahead of time. If someone is a dealer, then obviously It may would be to their advantage, unless they are concerned that the maker will not sell the cue to them if They knew of Their intentions.
AS far as flippers are concerned, There are probably several reasons that motivate, some circumstancial, some intentional, and some are simply motivated By turning a cue over for a profit. some collect cues like baseball cards, they admire it for a while, then sell or trade for some new interest they have.
Greg
Zims Rack said:
You know...I'd have to find it...but there was a post about this somewhere else on this forum. Sneaky pete's are generally full spliced cues aren't they? How many of you gentleman do your own full splices? From what I understand...the equipment alone, needed to make these is pretty elaborate. I won't speak of hit, or better construction, etc....but there are many that I've heard say what you pay for a sneaky...should honestly be a helluva lot more. As for the prices being ridiculous...I don't know about that. Travis has started making full splice cues with veneers...and maybe an ivory hoppe ring and ivory joint. I've seen those go for $1200+. I've owned a couple myself. I deem them to be worth every penny. But that's just me. I've been called a lunatic before. I do know this...if I have $1200 to $1500 to spend...and one of Travis' full splices is on the block in that range...I'd have no qualms about going after it at that price point. None whatsoever. Proof enough that it's not all about the materials. Eric Crisp's sneakies are fabulous too. If they weren't worth it...they wouldn't be selling. There's a very real chance, sir, that your sneaky petes are just dirt cheap, and a bona fide phenomenal value. You might however, be leaving money on the table.
Just my 2 cents. I've worked in a wood shop 6 weeks of my 30 year life...and believe me...the reason I shell out the kinda bread for cues that I do...is because I damn well know I can't make them myself. Even if I could...I honestly think I'm getting a discount...because often....I think 40-60 hours of my time...is worth WAY more than what I'm spending on a cue.
WheatCues said:
I don't agree with this. You know...I really don't think there's a cuemaker on here that gouges anyone on their prices. At the same time...I don't get angry at the secondary market either. This is, and will forever be, simple supply and demand. There are MANY cue makers, that could easily look at the what their cues fetch and the secondary market, and use those figures to set their price points direct to the customer. They could EASILY secure that money in their own pockets. MAYBE. Maybe the guy buying the cue, wouldn't buy it at that price if he couldn't flip it? Honestly, I think it should flatter a cue maker what his cues go for after the initial sale. Should it give him a moment of pause, to think about whether or not he should be charging more himself? Yeah...probably. These guys can't make cues for forever. It's not like they have pensions and 401K's. They don't have company stock options.
Christ...if I was a good cuemaker...I'd hold aside a few of my cues every year...so as they increased in value on the secondary market. If I could sell a cue for $1000 today...but know that when I quit making cues...it would go for $3000...I'd sand bag a whole goddamn bunch of 'em. LOL
Think about it...if the majority of the price of a cue is in the time, not the materials....and 40 hours of work could get you either $3000 today....or $7000 several years from now.... *L*
If you notice thru life, the true artists, and passonate builders don't do it for the money, they do it for the art of it. They usually aren't business men. their talent is in building it, not selling it. Therefore the flippers/ dealers assign the value more than the cuebuilder, and are part of the cycle.
Dave
Dave
dave sutton
Banned
before i started to build cues i collected. i am a flipper. well i was. ive had a few cues sell on the secondary market. they have all sold for more then i sold them new. i find that to be a complement. things happen in life. our profession or hobby is in a buisness of leisure. when things go bad the most expendible this must go. pool and cues fall into that catagory.
i dont do it for the money. i do it for the love. i am emotionally attached to every cue i make. i dont want to sell any of them. do care if i do either. i make cues i like bc i like them and if someone wants it i sell.
however, when i was a collector. if i paid 1200$ for a cue and was offered 1400$- 1500$ it was sold. easy
i dont do it for the money. i do it for the love. i am emotionally attached to every cue i make. i dont want to sell any of them. do care if i do either. i make cues i like bc i like them and if someone wants it i sell.
however, when i was a collector. if i paid 1200$ for a cue and was offered 1400$- 1500$ it was sold. easy
dave sutton
Banned
i got into a conversation with arnie about the cost of ivory and the upcharge for working with ivory. i am a cuemaker that works with ivory and i dont totally agree with the gap. let me say first as a fellow maker i hope for everyone to get as much as possible for thier work. i think where the issue lies is cost of material and upcharges in material for the same exact process.
prime example ivory vs delrin. imo delrin is harder to work with. ivory gets sanded and finished over. my delrin shines like a finish is on it. sanding sanding sanding buffing ect.
end result delrin free - ivory 450$+
ivory joint is also easier then SS IMO
SS joint free - ivory $150+
the public has a very wrong understanding about ivory. im sure here comes the posts about cost and ivory is hard to work with. yadayada
10 years not 1 cracked ferrule yet... knock wood
now we all know what we can get 2 ferrules a buttcap and joint for from dw. some may think almost 1000% upcharge is needed i personally dont. i charge alot less for ivory but thats me
truth is there is a some risk in ant organic material we work with. i just made a shaft for a customer. when i started the shaft was perfect. i glued on the rings. let them dry. taped the joint let it dry next day i faced it and put the cue in the lathe to match it up. and HEEEEELLLLOOOOOO. warped
things happen but my customer wont pay for that i do
prime example ivory vs delrin. imo delrin is harder to work with. ivory gets sanded and finished over. my delrin shines like a finish is on it. sanding sanding sanding buffing ect.
end result delrin free - ivory 450$+
ivory joint is also easier then SS IMO
SS joint free - ivory $150+
the public has a very wrong understanding about ivory. im sure here comes the posts about cost and ivory is hard to work with. yadayada
10 years not 1 cracked ferrule yet... knock wood
now we all know what we can get 2 ferrules a buttcap and joint for from dw. some may think almost 1000% upcharge is needed i personally dont. i charge alot less for ivory but thats me
truth is there is a some risk in ant organic material we work with. i just made a shaft for a customer. when i started the shaft was perfect. i glued on the rings. let them dry. taped the joint let it dry next day i faced it and put the cue in the lathe to match it up. and HEEEEELLLLOOOOOO. warped
things happen but my customer wont pay for that i do
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