Why is everything handicapped in the US or how to improve as a B-ish (or 525-ish) player?

stewie

Active member
And there is actually little pool per hour in tournaments.

I'd rather play pool.
I would disagree. With both of you. Even if they are strict with table time, 1 hour practice and 2 games garanteed, it's easy to get at least 3+ hours table time. Not even talking about the good places leaving the tables open.

I also don't.like to gamble that much. I am okay with playing even for the table time or some bucks. But often you start negotiating about handicaps again, and then agree and one feels bad, because he or she lost already at negotiating rather than on the table. Same frustration Potential like in handicapped events.

Somebody above said it: you decide to spend time playing pool. You should enjoy. Otherwise do something else.
 

Minnesota Phat

Active member
As a "banger," I agree that both formats should be available, just so long as there is a handicap division available, so that I have a gambler's chance at actually winning a set or two.

For me, open tournaments aren't bad just because I lose a lot, but because I get eliminated so fast that I don't get to play much. A loser's bracket or maybe some free table time for the quickly-eliminated might provide a bit of incentive for bangers to enter open tournaments, but it's a hard sell to get less-serious players to compete in tournaments where they'll be quickly crushed and shown the door.
 

stewie

Active member
As a "banger," I agree that both formats should be available, just so long as there is a handicap division available, so that I have a gambler's chance at actually winning a set or two.

For me, open tournaments aren't bad just because I lose a lot, but because I get eliminated so fast that I don't get to play much. A loser's bracket or maybe some free table time for the quickly-eliminated might provide a bit of incentive for bangers to enter open tournaments, but it's a hard sell to get less-serious players to compete in tournaments where they'll be quickly crushed and shown the door.
@hang-the-9 said it earlier: If there would be the right setups, divisions would attract different skills. Weaker players would be able to compete even with better chances to win as well.
 

The_JV

'AZB_Combat Certified'
Thanks for the "master" pointer.
Honestly... If you're not in a spot to gamble heavy, then APA Masters is probably your best bet. I will assume the size of the fish in you local pond will drive the value of the Masters league. That said, in my region it's the cheapest way to expose oneself to upper tier talent. Locally speaking of course.

I cut my teeth donating to the heavy hitters during my youth. For the most part those lessons have stuck with me throughout the years. I play in the masters league for sake of the competition. Open tourneys that are worth playing in are rare and even then potentially multiple hours away.
 

telinoz

Registered
As a "banger," I agree that both formats should be available, just so long as there is a handicap division available, so that I have a gambler's chance at actually winning a set or two.

For me, open tournaments aren't bad just because I lose a lot, but because I get eliminated so fast that I don't get to play much. A loser's bracket or maybe some free table time for the quickly-eliminated might provide a bit of incentive for bangers to enter open tournaments, but it's a hard sell to get less-serious players to compete in tournaments where they'll be quickly crushed and shown the door.
Say you have your usual double elimination format.
But, when a player loses their loser side match, they have just played 2 matches they qualify for a separate event at the same venue that day assuming enough tables.
A tiny $5 entry fee, something like that so it does not dip into the main prize pool.

The separate event has round robin group of 4.
Then single elim for group winner only.

You would get a minimum of 5 matches in that day, even if you lost them all.
Surely that would make it worthwhile for the larger lower skilled groups?
 
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Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would disagree. With both of you. Even if they are strict with table time, 1 hour practice and 2 games garanteed, it's easy to get at least 3+ hours table time. Not even talking about the good places leaving the tables open.

I also don't.like to gamble that much. I am okay with playing even for the table time or some bucks. But often you start negotiating about handicaps again, and then agree and one feels bad, because he or she lost already at negotiating rather than on the table. Same frustration Potential like in handicapped events.

Somebody above said it: you decide to spend time playing pool. You should enjoy. Otherwise do something else.
Right... The little events definitely do have more pool than per hour then the medium and large event s
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
@hang-the-9 said it earlier: If there would be the right setups, divisions would attract different skills. Weaker players would be able to compete even with better chances to win as well.
I haven't really read what you said all that closely, but it really seems like you're arguing both sides of the matter.

You want standardized handicapping, but all handicapping has its inherent shortcomings and you've already stated youre in a scenario where they are handicapping.

Generally speaking, a handicapping system is no less fair or more favorable for one individual versus another.

It's balls in a hole, man. Give um hell.
 
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CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
The handicapping is frustrating. In my area, the tournaments are handicapped by fargo rating, but they also cap the tournament! Most are 643 and below with fargo races. Anyone over that skill level is pretty boned when it comes to tournaments to play in.


Well under OLD ARIZONA RATING SYSTEM, majority of events were 8s, or 7s, and under.

Bar and Room Owner knew these were recreational, or beginners.

That group spent money on Booze, Beer, Food, and Snacks.

Rooms, and Bars were catering to the people who made them profitable.

Better players 8s, and up for not spend money on the thing that pay the bills. Friend had small bar, he was approached to sponsor team of very good players.

The Captain made his pitch of wants, Dave replied what’s in it for me? Bottom line was nothing for Dave but it being negative experience.

Why cater to better players, unless your business is hobby business. Just for fun having bar or Pool Room that is money pit, v/s Gold Mine❓❓❓❓
 
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maha

from way back when
Silver Member
handicaps are made to even out two players. so if you are losing to a lower handicap then you are not playing up to yours or its too high.
or his is out of wack. but if happening more than a few times its you who cant play to your rating.
 

Minnesota Phat

Active member
Say you have your usual double elimination format.
But, when a player loses their loser side match, they have just played 2 matches they qualify for a separate event at the same venue that day assuming enough tables.
A tiny $5 entry fee, something like that so it does not dip into the main prize pool.

The separate event has round robin group of 4.
Then single elim for group winner only.

You would get a minimum of 5 matches in that day, even if you lost them all.
Surely that would make it worthwhile for the larger lower skilled groups?
That would be cool with me both in terms of getting time at the table, and having a chance to maybe win a bit.

It's a good idea, if you ask me. I think a lot of the success or failure of such a system would be how this is all communicated to the less-skilled players. It's sort of a "Prepare to get smoked at first, but then things'll get easier" sorta system, which I think could work, so long as egos don't get too bruised.
 

Minnesota Phat

Active member
handicaps are made to even out two players. so if you are losing to a lower handicap then you are not playing up to yours or its too high.
or his is out of wack. but if happening more than a few times its you who cant play to your rating.
Good point - put if you can't play to your rating, then your rating will go down, right?

I think the frustration may be more about the principle of how unfair it is rather than actual results. I beat a guy in 9-ball by accidentally caroming the ORANGE 5 ball off of a kick shot into the 9 ball, which banked the cue ball into another kiss on the 9 ball... to the corner pocket... on a 9 foot table.

In that set I think I had to win 2, and he had to win 5, so he wasn't super-happy that I took the set. He did, however, tell me "good shot," deadpan.
 

Minnesota Phat

Active member
Well under OLD ARIZONA RATING SYSTEM, majority of events were 8s, or 7s, and under.

Bar and Room Owner knew these were recreational, or beginners.

That group spent money on Booze, Beer, Food, and Snacks.

Rooms, and Bars were catering to the people who made them profitable.

Better players 8s, and up for not spend money on the thing that pay the bills. Friend had small bar, he was approached to sponsor team of very good players.

The Captain made his pitch of wants, Dave replied what’s in it for me? Bottom line was nothing for Dave but it being negative experience.

Why cater to better players, unless your business is hobby business. Just for fun having bar or Pool Room that is money pit, v/s Gold Mine❓❓❓❓
Better players create mystique. I think it's good to have some non-handicapped tournaments so people can see who the real sharks are.

I might be repeating myself, but I like the arrangement for 9-ball at Shooters in Burnsville, MN. They have 9-ball open on Monday, and 9-ball handicapped on Wednesday. If you enter on Monday, you know you're swimming with sharks. If you enter on Wednesday, you get a big handicap against the sharks, unless you are one.

I think that's cool.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
Well in old days before Fargo Rating, 90% of Tournaments in AZ, were 7 & 8s, and under handicap.

Few were for better players 9, and up to 10-2.

Bar & Room owner want spenders to pay bills. Mystique of Efren doesn’t pay Bills, with 30 watching the magician.

Room or Bar owners are in business hoping to make living, not run in red.

Remember Alexander's Bar that was like one of the places in PHX hosted 10 Ball Shootout. Big purse add. Many came over from So. Cal, NV, NM to try their hand at winning,

Several of these top player must have been thirsty, they went to Asia market in same place for 16 Iz bottle of soda.

Why Alaxanders’s charge $3.00 or more for a soft drink.

Better player we’re not supporting venue they came to play in. Typical Mistique.

I would also not recommend open a Grommet Pork Bacon Shop in Jewish Neighborhood.😀

Failure waiting to happen.😄
 
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David in FL

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Maybe it’s just down here, but while league play outside of Masters is usually handicapped, I see very little handicapped tournaments.

There might be Fargo or SL upper limits on who can enter, but other than that, the vast majority of play is simple, non-handicapped races.

If you want to win, just play better than the other guy(s).
 

easy-e

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well under OLD ARIZONA RATING SYSTEM, majority of events were 8s, or 7s, and under.

Bar and Room Owner knew these were recreational, or beginners.

That group spent money on Booze, Beer, Food, and Snacks.

Rooms, and Bars were catering to the people who made them profitable.

Better players 8s, and up for not spend money on the thing that pay the bills. Friend had small bar, he was approached to sponsor team of very good players.

The Captain made his pitch of wants, Dave replied what’s in it for me? Bottom line was nothing for Dave but it being negative experience.

Why cater to better players, unless your business is hobby business. Just for fun having bar or Pool Room that is money pit, v/s Gold Mine❓❓❓❓
I never asked anyone to cater to the better players, but why not include them? They’re only keeping out maybe 10 people at most. Almost everyone in these tournaments is a serious player, not some recreational drunk with deep pockets. Get out once in a while and actually see it for yourself instead of just talking about shit that you don’t know.
 

CocoboloCowboy

Cowboys are my hero's
Silver Member
I never asked anyone to cater to the better players, but why not include them? They’re only keeping out maybe 10 people at most. Almost everyone in these tournaments is a serious player, not some recreational drunk with deep pockets. Get out once in a while and actually see it for yourself instead of just talking about shit that you don’t know.


Well the B, & C, Players (4-8’s Old AZ Rating System) we’re welcome to play in open events.

Bar & Room owner kept the Better Plays out by setting the rules for their venues.

Maybe they knew open event would kill their bottom line.

Want to know reason behind why Rooms and Bars do what they do.

Talk to the owner or TDS. If I had a Bar with 6 or 7 Pool tables, I would only run events catered to attraction big spend recreational players.

Because that is wise, they drink, spend money of snacks, and bar food. Twenty five cent Valley Table would be my choice.
 

easy-e

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well the B, & C, Players (4-8’s Old AZ Rating System) we’re welcome to play in open events.

Bar & Room owner kept the Better Plays out by setting the rules for their venues.

Maybe they knew open event would kill their bottom line.

Want to know reason behind why Rooms and Bars do what they do.

Talk to the owner or TDS. If I had a Bar with 6 or 7 Pool tables, I would only run events catered to attraction big spend recreational players.

Because that is wise, they drink, spend money of snacks, and bar food. Twenty five cent Valley Table would be my choice.
I spend more than most. Many low rated players spend as little as possible. You’re stereotyping. I don’t need your thoughts on this anymore, maybe someone with real info will chime in?
 

RRfireblade

Grammer Are For Stupids
Silver Member
handicaps are made to even out two players. so if you are losing to a lower handicap then you are not playing up to yours or its too high.
or his is out of wack. but if happening more than a few times its you who cant play to your rating.

IMO, that's the real bottom line here and in most hcp gripes I hear. I think for those people, it just hits the ego less (telling yourself you're) losing to a better player.
 

Dead Money

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Say you have your usual double elimination format.
But, when a player loses their loser side match, they have just played 2 matches they qualify for a separate event at the same venue that day assuming enough tables.
A tiny $5 entry fee, something like that so it does not dip into the main prize pool.


The separate event has round robin group of 4.
Then single elim for group winner only.

You would get a minimum of 5 matches in that day, even if you lost them all.
Surely that would make it worthwhile for the larger lower skilled groups?

Second Chance Events- you see those from time to time as part of events. I've even seen them pop up organically too. For those the Entry/Cash is kept separate from the main event.

Then there are the "Two Man" tournaments.
 

telinoz

Registered
Second Chance Events- you see those from time to time as part of events. I've even seen them pop up organically too. For those the Entry/Cash is kept separate from the main event.

Then there are the "Two Man" tournaments.
Yes, they are commonly known as Repechage.

All I added was a format, using round robin and single elim to give maximum matches to these players who bow out early in a non handicapped event - to add value.
 
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