double-the-distance aiming method (PIM: Pocket Intersection Method)

[dr_dave]

NOTE - THIS THREAD IS NOW ABOUT CTE. SEE THE POSTS LATER IN THE THREAD. I THINK WE ARE DONE WITH THE DOUBLE-THE-DISTANCE STUFF. SORRY I DIDN'T START A SEPARATE THREAD.

THE BEGINNING OF THE CTE AIMING STUFF IS HERE


Recently, Don Smith sent me a document describing a double-the-distance aiming system. Don asked me to post it and see if people think it is new or not, and to get feedback. Here's Don's complete document:

"An Aiming Point Method For Pool" by Don Smith, August 2009​

Here's how it works (per the diagram below):

1. Find the point where a line from the cue ball will intersect the object ball.
2. Find the point where a line from the pocket (or other target) will intersect the object ball.
3. Estimate the distance between these two points.
4. Double this distance to find the aiming point.

Per the diagram below, Don's system recommends sighting through the center of the CB (and not along parallel lines, as implied by traditional double-the-distance and contact-point-at-center-of-ball-overlap methods). Because of this, the system doesn't work well when the CB is close to the OB (see error "E" in the diagram below), but it works fine when the balls are farther apart, for all cut angles.

It does take a little practice estimating the distances, but you can use your cue tip to help. See the document for more info and examples.

 

[woody_968]

Its been around for a long time. Im not positive, but I think I first heard it on the Preachers video tapes.

 

[sixpack]

Recently, Don Smith sent me a document describing an aiming system he thinks might be new. I call it the double-the-distance aiming method (d'DAM). He calls it PIM: Pocket Intersection Method. Don asked me to post it and see if people think it is new or not, and to get feedback. I've never seen this presented before, but it is too simple and makes too much sense to be new. Have you guys seen this before in any books or videos? Please give it a try and report back with any feedback or recommendation you might have.

Here's Don's complete document:

"A New Aiming Point Method For Pool" by Don Smith, August 2009​

Here's how it works (per the diagram below):

1. Find the point where a line from the cue ball will intersect the object ball.
2. Find the point where a line from the pocket (or other target) will intersect the object ball.
3. Estimate the distance between these two points.
4. Double this distance to find the aiming point.

PIM doesn't work well when the CB is close to the OB, but it works fine when the balls are farther apart, for all cut angles. It does take a little practice estimating the distances, but you can use your cue tip to help. See the document for more info and examples.

I developed/discovered this myself in 1990 or so. I am sure I wasn't the first to discover it. I first posted it online and called it the 'double the distance' system at least 7 or 8 years ago. I hadn't seen it anywhere else in the public domain before that so that's why I posted it.

ETA - Someone (Andrew Manning??) commented at the time that the system had been around for a long time, but they hadn't thought of it as the 'double the distance' method before.

~rc

 

[dr_dave]

Its been around for a long time. Im not positive, but I think I first heard it on the Preachers video tapes.

If you still have the tapes, could you check and report back. Also, did he claim he invented it, or did he give credit to somebody else?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[sixpack]

If you still have the tapes, could you check and report back. Also, did he claim he invented it, or did he give credit to somebody else?

Thanks,
Dave

Here's the first post I talked about it on AZB. I think I might have mentioned it on RSB long before.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=230170&postcount=25

~rc

 

[dr_dave]

I developed/discovered this myself in 1990 or so. I am sure I wasn't the first to discover it. I first posted it online and called it the 'double the distance' system at least 7 or 8 years ago. I hadn't seen it anywhere else in the public domain before that so that's why I posted it.

ETA - Someone (Andrew Manning??) commented at the time that the system had been around for a long time, but they hadn't thought of it as the 'double the distance' method before.

Could you find the post and provide a link so I can check it out?

Is it just one of those things that people just know about? I've never seen it in any book or article that I can remember.

Hopefully, Andrew Manning and/or others can help us trace its roots.

Has anybody ever seen it print before? If so, where?

Thanks,
Dave

 

[sixpack]

Could you find the post and provide a link so I can check it out?

Is it just one of those things that people just know about? I've never seen it in any book or article that I can remember.

Hopefully, Andrew Manning and/or others can help us trace its roots.

Has anybody ever seen it print before? If so, where?

Thanks,
Dave

I can tell you everything about how I derived it and what my thought process was. I don't know any other origins of it.

~rc

 

[sixpack]

Could you find the post and provide a link so I can check it out?

Is it just one of those things that people just know about? I've never seen it in any book or article that I can remember.

Hopefully, Andrew Manning and/or others can help us trace its roots.

Has anybody ever seen it print before? If so, where?

Thanks,
Dave

It was Colin Colenso who made the comment about it that I was thinking of, but he doesn't say it was older.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=230237&postcount=29

~rc

 

[JoeyInCali]

I saw this on Don Feeney's video a long time ago.

 

[dr_dave]

Here's the first post I talked about it on AZB. I think I might have mentioned it on RSB long before.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=230170&postcount=25

Thanks for the link. I just read most of the thread. I wish I had gotten into the pool scene much earlier in life ... in the good 'ole RSB days, or the early years of AZB. I guess I was too distracted by my day job back then. :frown:

Thanks again,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

I can tell you everything about how I derived it and what my thought process was. I don't know any other origins of it.

I'd certainly like to hear anything else you want to add to the discussion.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[woody_968]

I saw this on Don Feeney's video a long time ago.

I thought it was his tape, I think I still have them so I may be able to take a look and see if he mentions where it came from. But I dont think he does.

 

[Clark_the_Shark]

It gets a little confusing regarding the A vs. A' with the error involved... and something a little fishy usually jumps out at me if any "system" doesn't work for a particular shot or series of shots.

It also seems to me that it might be more useful to just visualize where the center of the ghost ball will lie while standing right next to the object ball and then moving back to the CB and driving the cue through that spot on the table. Dunno, like I said in the other thread, I'll have to test it out on the table... Thanks for the informative post.

 

[Andrew Manning]

Could you find the post and provide a link so I can check it out?

Is it just one of those things that people just know about? I've never seen it in any book or article that I can remember.

Hopefully, Andrew Manning and/or others can help us trace its roots.

Has anybody ever seen it print before? If so, where?

Thanks,
Dave

I've only even been playing pool for a little over 5 years, much less been involved in nuanced topics of discussion such as this. So I can't speak to the "roots" of much of anything.

I am flattered to have been mistaken for someone who would know such things, though.

-Andrew

 

[dr_dave]

I thought it was his tape, I think I still have them so I may be able to take a look and see if he mentions where it came from. But I dont think he does.

That would be great. Thanks. When you find it, please let us know the year and title of the tape and whether or not he mentions where he learned it.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

It gets a little confusing regarding the A vs. A' with the error involved... and something a little fishy usually jumps out at me if any "system" doesn't work for a particular shot or series of shots.

It "works" (in theory) for all cuts, unless the CB is too close to the OB. I plan to look at it closer to try to find out how much it breaks down and what "too close" really means for various cuts.

It also seems to me that it might be more useful to just visualize where the center of the ghost ball will lie while standing right next to the object ball and then moving back to the CB and driving the cue through that spot on the table.

I'm with you on this one (see ghost-ball aiming and DAM). But some people don't seem to like ghost-ball aiming. This could be a possible alternative to them, if they don't have a good natural feel for aiming.

Dunno, like I said in the other thread, I'll have to test it out on the table...

I also haven't tried it out much yet, but I plan to.

Thanks for the informative post.

You're welcome. Thank you to Don for sending me the document.

Thanks for the feedback and input,
Dave

 

[Cornerman]

Thanks for the link. I just read most of the thread. I wish I had gotten into the pool scene much earlier in life ... in the good 'ole RSB days, or the early years of AZB. I guess I was too distracted by my day job back then. :frown:

Thanks again,
Dave

It's funny... we talked about several versions of "double the distance aiming" over the years at RSB, but I can't find one of the posts!!!

Byrne also talks about a couple of Double the Distance aiming in his Standard Book.

Bob Jewett must have something on his site. Possibly in Ron Shepards APAPP.

That all being said, I'm having trouble understanding the original drawing in your first post. I'll keep staring at it until I get it. {edit: yes, this is the same Double the Distance method. It's been around for a long long time, since it's "geometrically correct.}

{edit2: It's not quite the same. There's an error in its "Specify the first point" that makes this mostly true at longer distances}

Fred

 

[sixpack]

I'd certainly like to hear anything else you want to add to the discussion.

Thanks,
Dave

I was an engineering student at the Colorado School of Mines and we had a new freshman come in that could play pool pretty good, but after watching him a long time I noticed he was missing a lot of shots that he should never miss. So I asked him how he was aiming and he said he aimed the cuestick at the contact point on every shot.

So I told him that it wouldn't work for every shot and that's why he misses some shots consistently.

My conversation with him made me think about HOW to aim the cuestick and how to derive a mathematically correct aim point for every shot.

So using E2 paper I started trying to derive a geometric rule of where to aim the cueball to make every shot. I noticed that if the CB and OB are the same size that the CP (contact point) will always be halfway between the center of the OB and the center of the CB when you flatten it back to two dimensions. So I just went to a pool hall and started measuring and it worked. Small step from there to just visualize the distance from the center-to-center point and double it.

The caveat is that it's dependent on you having good vision AND the position of your dominant eye comes into play. I thought that it would work better if you used your dominant eye to sight down the cue like a rifle. If you played with the cue in between your eyes, I thought the system would break down. I had always played with my dominant eye over my cue so it wasn't a big adjustment for me.

I wasn't looking for it to be a be-all end-all system, I just wanted to be able to create a correct reference point for aiming when my 'feel' wasn't there. Sometimes we have that tough table-length shot for the game and we 'try' harder. I would miss those shots too much. I developed this system specifically to help me in those situations. In those situations, having a repeatable, simple way to get to the correct aim point (without spin) was invaluable. I got the reputation of having ice in my veins because I usually made the tough shot for the cash. My secret was having this system to fall back on. Shoot the shot medium, center ball and bingo. Made some really unbelievable shots for the cash using it.

~rc

 

[JoeyInCali]

That would be great. Thanks. When you find it, please let us know the year and title of the tape and whether or not he mentions where he learned it.

Thanks,
Dave

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=152631
Tape 1.
Vol 1. Sighting & Aiming
A complete discussion of aiming systems. Including how to aim the cue, the double distance aiming system, the five major hits system, why you miss certain shots, why you rattle the ball in the pocket, and more.

 

[dr_dave]

It's funny... we talked about several versions of "double the distance aiming" over the years at RSB, but I can't find one of the posts!!!

If you do, please post a link.

Byrne also talks about a couple of Double the Distance aiming in his Standard Book.

I just looked through his book and couldn't find the method. Do you have a page number?

Bob Jewett must have something on his site.

I've read all of Bob's past articles fairly recently, and I don't recall seeing anything on this method. Hopefully, Bob is listening and can provide a link if he knows of a pertinent article (I'll send him an e-mail also). I have links to many of his aiming-related articles here, but I don't think "double-the-distance" is in any of them.

Possibly in Ron Shepards APAPP.

I read Shepard's APAPP entire document again recently, and I just browsed through it again, and I couldn't find anything on this method. Again, if you find something and have a page number, please let us know.

That all being said, I'm having trouble understanding the original drawing in your first post. I'll keep staring at it until I get it.

It's not my drawing ... it was sent to me by Don Smith. It could be clearer, but I think its decipherable. His document has more info, diagrams, and examples.

Thanks,
Dave