European (conical taper) vs Pro Taper (straight taper)

[JoeyA]

Can a straight taper (pro taper) or a European taper (conical taper) have a different effect on the player's ability to shoot the cue ball (even a small amount), straighter?

Can a straight taper or a conical taper allow a player to put more or less English on the cue ball, (even a small amount).

If so, how?

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[pt109]

Can a straight taper (pro taper) or a European taper (conical taper) have a different effect on the player's ability to shoot the cue ball (even a small amount), straighter?

Can a straight taper or a conical taper allow a player to put more or less English on the cue ball, (even a small amount).

If so, how?

Thanks,
JoeyA

Little biased here...don't like 13 mm.
I think pro taper accommodates the 'player'
I think euro taper accommodates the 'cue ball'
I try to use what suits the game....
..if I wanna be comfortable...I'll watch TV.

Don't think it'll make you more accurate, but euro taper has more guts.
..but the tip should be smaller

 

[Maniac]

Good questions Joey. I'm surprised at the lack of responses thus far. This post will bump you up for the evening crowd.

Maniac

 

[JoeyA]

Good questions Joey. I'm surprised at the lack of responses thus far. This post will bump you up for the evening crowd.

Maniac

I have table experiences that beg answers.
JoeyA

 

[qbilder]

Hmmm, good question. I think it could be argued that the conical taper 'may' hinder the players ability to shoot straight simply due to the constant changing of diameter through his bridge while stroking.

Another difference could be flex point, which is seldom talked about or acknowledged. The conical taper will flex most in the area near the tip, keeping it restricted to just a few mm. A pro taper will flex all the way back to where the taper begins climbing, pushing the flex point much farther back & allowing the tip end to move unrestricted upon impact by anything but your bridge. The soft tissue of your bridge hand will allow for a lot of flex. I'd have to see a test under high speed camera to really be sure of it, but I suspect that's what happens. Another phenomena would be the pro taper flexing/buckling back at say the 12" mark if it's a 12" taper, before tip is ever deflected from the ball. Basically the shaft flexes back there & the tip then follows, kinda like a pole vault.

These are just my thoughts. I know what you are asking about & I have noticed it. But without actually having the equipment necessary to test & document it, it's just personal theory. This phenomena is exactly what inspired my shaft taper, though. I spent a long time on it, trying to tune it so that it never 'surprised' me on certain shots. I know it made a difference for me personally, but I can't say it would mean anything to anybody else unless they bridge, stroke & use the exact same speed as me. I think there's a perfect taper for each individual player, and even that changes through the years as they grow as players. It would be nice to see cues advance to that level. It kinda has in golf clubs. But pool doesn't have the funding & resources that golf has.

 

[Rich93]

Can a straight taper (pro taper) or a European taper (conical taper) have a different effect on the player's ability to shoot the cue ball (even a small amount), straighter?

I don't think so, unless it's because of the lower squirt compared to a normal 13mm pro-taper (see below).

Can a straight taper or a conical taper allow a player to put more or less English on the cue ball, (even a small amount).

I don't think so, unless the smaller tip allows marginally more english.

I use a billiard taper to shoot pool - what Ray Schuler called his European taper, which was a little different from a constant taper (somewhat slower growth over the first few inches). I don't claim any magical properties for it, it's just what I got used to.

Because it has a smaller tip (12mm in my case) and a small lightweight ferrule, it has lower "end-mass" and therefore lower squirt than a normal pro-taper 13 mm shaft, but probably more squirt than a Predator or OB. I never tried to check the difference. But it does squirt. Consciously or unconsciously, you have to adjust your aim when you use english. Billiard balls are heavier than pool balls and squirt less (and seem to curve more), so billiard players have to adapt to less squirt than pool players.

It's been said - by Schuler, actually - that a European taper has more consistency when using english, but I don't know if that's true. Billiard players use english on most every shot and they use these tapers, but I don't know if that's for good reason or merely tradition. European tapers are more solid when hitting the ball and billiard balls are bigger and heavier, so that's probably the main reason they use them.

 

[backplaying]

Joey, i can say i never understood people wanting a taper that would move your bridge fingers. How can that be a avandage?

 

[jwpretd]

I've switched to a Kilby-made cue with a laminated conical taper shaft and 10mm tip for seven or eight years. Besides the conical taper and 10mm tip, Ron's cues have a thicker butt than modern cues; they're much like all cues were 50 years ago, and like carom cues still are. It feels much "steadier" in my hand than do modern cues.

Essentially immediately my play improved. Most noticeable in the sense of being quantifiable was a drill I use to keep my stroke straight: a version of shooting straight in shots on the long diagonal and try to have the cue ball follow the object ball into the corner (I vary that sometimes by following only to a specific diamond line, or only a ball width, or stop shots). The goal is to make the object ball 50 times consecutively and keep track of how many times I reach the other portion of the goal (i.e., follow the ball in, etc). Within a week or so, my success rate on making 50 balls consecutively went above 90% (from just over 70%); the other parts of the drill showed improvement in the 10% range.

Unfortunately for this discussion, going to the conical taper and 10mm tip weren't the only changes I made then. I also started using an open bridge almost exclusively, and started looking at the cue ball on the last stroke instead of at the object ball. I don't have any way to quantify how much of the improvement was due to any one item. I feel a good part of it was due to the shaft, but how much was the taper and how much the 10mm tip, I don't know. I know that the taper seems to guide my vision to a point on the cue ball, but the 10mm tip lets me see closer to the tip-ball contact point, and I don't know which is really responsible for that feeling.

One thing I do know is that the conical taper felt right instantly, even with a closed bridge, and that using a shaft with a modern taper now feels so awkward that I will rarely do it.

 

[ShootingArts]

I see says the blind man

Hmmm, good question. I think it could be argued that the conical taper 'may' hinder the players ability to shoot straight simply due to the constant changing of diameter through his bridge while stroking.

Another difference could be flex point, which is seldom talked about or acknowledged. The conical taper will flex most in the area near the tip, keeping it restricted to just a few mm. A pro taper will flex all the way back to where the taper begins climbing, pushing the flex point much farther back & allowing the tip end to move unrestricted upon impact by anything but your bridge. The soft tissue of your bridge hand will allow for a lot of flex. I'd have to see a test under high speed camera to really be sure of it, but I suspect that's what happens. Another phenomena would be the pro taper flexing/buckling back at say the 12" mark if it's a 12" taper, before tip is ever deflected from the ball. Basically the shaft flexes back there & the tip then follows, kinda like a pole vault.

These are just my thoughts. I know what you are asking about & I have noticed it. But without actually having the equipment necessary to test & document it, it's just personal theory. This phenomena is exactly what inspired my shaft taper, though. I spent a long time on it, trying to tune it so that it never 'surprised' me on certain shots. I know it made a difference for me personally, but I can't say it would mean anything to anybody else unless they bridge, stroke & use the exact same speed as me. I think there's a perfect taper for each individual player, and even that changes through the years as they grow as players. It would be nice to see cues advance to that level. It kinda has in golf clubs. But pool doesn't have the funding & resources that golf has.

I see why Sugartree cues have the great reputation that they do.

Hu

 

[Realizm]

I see why Sugartree cues have the great reputation that they do.

Hu

Hmm i feel a 12.75 mm is a great size with a 12' or 16' taper . I like it long due to this kind of taper does not move my point of contact.. euro tapers move my fingers to much ..... I do feel what might work for me my not work for others ,,,,, My 3 cents

 

[ShootingArts]

There is a happy middle ground

Hmm i feel a 12.75 mm is a great size with a 12' or 16' taper . I like it long due to this kind of taper does not move my point of contact.. euro tapers move my fingers to much ..... I do feel what might work for me my not work for others ,,,,, My 3 cents

There is a happy middle ground which is neither a pro taper or european taper but somewhere in between typical pro tapers and typical european tapers. The most you normally feel, if anything, is a slight tightening of the bridge using a closed bridge. JoeyA has shot with a shaft of this design a handful of times and never commented about the shaft taper that I can recall.

If you were to tighten your bridge very tightly at the extreme of your backstroke you might notice a little bridge fingers movement but when you address the cue ball normally you actually get a slightly looser bridge during the back and forward stroke and it reaches the normal snugness you prefer when the tip is at the cue ball. Any significant tightening would occur after the cue ball and tip are no longer in contact.

Something that hasn't been discussed is the transition area between the pro or cone taper and the larger part of the shaft near the joint. Few cues actually have a single taper from tip to buttcap and usually there is a transition area in the shaft. This area is important with any taper but is especially critical with a pro taper. Almost undetectable differences here can make the difference between a very good playing shaft and a piece of scrap wood.

Hu

 

[kilby]

A full explanation would cause massive yawning, but here is the short version. Energy is stored and released when cue hits ball; the more a cue flexes the higher percentage of the released energy is absorbed in the cue, not in the ball; the stiffer the cue, the more energy is transferred to the ball. Therefore, a stiffer cue (European taper) ALWAYS produces higher ball energy, whether it be spin or velocity. (That was the short answer!)

 

[kilby]

The second part of the question is accuracy. The more energy transferred to the ball the better. Side-spin causes centripetal force to try to bring the cueball back on line from the squirt generated by the off-center hit. The greater the energy in the ball, the greater the centripetal force, the quicker the ball comes back to the intended line. Therefore, the stiffer cue is more accurate. (short answer somewhat extended.)

 

[JoeyA]

The second part of the question is accuracy. The more energy transferred to the ball the better. Side-spin causes centripetal force to try to bring the cueball back on line from the squirt generated by the off-center hit. The greater the energy in the ball, the greater the centripetal force, the quicker the ball comes back to the intended line. Therefore, the stiffer cue is more accurate. (short answer somewhat extended.)

I hope that more people will confirm your theory. It's mine as well.
Thanks for the synopsis! Thanks to all who contributed to the thread.

I have been using a new shaft on my Mike Bender POW-MIA cue and I will start a new thread using some of your information if I have your permission???????

JoeyA

 

[desi2960]

not real scientific

i am far from a expert on wood, and as many i was using a pro style taper. wanting something a bit different, i started looking at the old cues built using the wood pin and all the different tapers like the old carom cues.
i now an building a cue with a modified conical-european taper with no ferrule. is the taper better ? i cannot honestly answer that question, better?
BUT, my customers are telling me they love the taper much better than the pro style and to me that is the bottom line. we all know hit-feel is all up to the individual. descriptions like, clean, crisp, solid, dense, great feedback is what i am hearing.
can you shoot straighter? i believe its all in your head, if you feel good about the cue you are using, then yes i believe you can shoot better. is that the shaft, no, its you thinking its the shaft.


there are no magic cues.

 

[Black-Balled]

there are no magic cues.

But I sure do run faster in my new shoes!

 

[JoeyA]

i am far from a expert on wood, and as many i was using a pro style taper. wanting something a bit different, i started looking at the old cues built using the wood pin and all the different tapers like the old carom cues.
i now an building a cue with a modified conical-european taper with no ferrule. is the taper better ? i cannot honestly answer that question, better?
BUT, my customers are telling me they love the taper much better than the pro style and to me that is the bottom line. we all know hit-feel is all up to the individual. descriptions like, clean, crisp, solid, dense, great feedback is what i am hearing.
can you shoot straighter? i believe its all in your head, if you feel good about the cue you are using, then yes i believe you can shoot better. is that the shaft, no, its you thinking its the shaft.

there are no magic cues.

used to believe like you as well. Feeling good about your equipment is one thing but when you test the same cue with different shafts and get different results, consistently, you have to think it is more than just something in your head.

Thanks for your perspective and good luck with the new taper!
JoeyA

 

[desi2960]

black-balled

just red your post, we may have the lyrics for a country western song

 

[jingle]

when you test the same cue with different shafts and get different results, consistently, you have to think it is more than just something in your head.
JoeyA

I think I know where your're going with this, but I'm anxious to read about your tests and findings....spill the beans already! k:

 

[Lexicologist71]

The second part of the question is accuracy. The more energy transferred to the ball the better. Side-spin causes centripetal force to try to bring the cueball back on line from the squirt generated by the off-center hit. The greater the energy in the ball, the greater the centripetal force, the quicker the ball comes back to the intended line. Therefore, the stiffer cue is more accurate. (short answer somewhat extended.)

Hence, Ray Schuler's billiards inspired pool cue shafts. His standard (professional taper) shafts were stiff. They play exceptionally well. Going from one shaft taper to another on the same butt gives noticeable changes in playing.