Should a pro player call a foul on themselves?

[trob]

no...it's your job when not playing to being paying attention to what's going on on the table. You can't compare it to golf. In golf your opponent could be no where near you and unable to see you commit a foul. In pool your right next to the table...Pay attention to what's going on or pay the price. I'm never upset at my opponent when I'm told I miss a foul..I'm upset at myself for not focusing on the game and missing it.

 

[AtLarge]

... If I missed the foul, then obviously I was not attentive to the game and that's my fault.......not his!

... I'm never upset at my opponent when I'm told I miss a foul..I'm upset at myself for not focusing on the game and missing it.

I repeat, sometimes only the shooter knows he committed a foul, regardless of how closely the opponent or a referee is watching.

 

[Jake Bagoodi]

golfers do it why not pool and make the game have a better rep.....

 

[Petros Andrikop]

Can anyone here who seems to be having such a big problem with other players, pro or otherwise, not self-calling fouls provide some video examples of what they're talking about? With all the video that's available and considering what a significant problem they consider this to be that shouldn't be too difficult to do. I'm looking forward to seeing this.

There was a tape made in the '90s full of such examples, I don't see it in youtube though.
All these years there have been such incidents, they are not the only factor that keeps pool from reaching true potential but they play a part.
This thread couldn't come out of nowhere..

 

[JoeyA]

The reputation of pool needs elevation.

Can anyone here who seems to be having such a big problem with other players, pro or otherwise, not self-calling fouls provide some video examples of what they're talking about? With all the video that's available and considering what a significant problem they consider this to be that shouldn't be too difficult to do. I'm looking forward to seeing this.

Bob,
There are numerous videos of pool players committing fouls that weren't called by anyone. With some of them, it would be impossible for the shooter to say that they didn't commit the foul.

This isn't a witch hunt to denigrate the players and that's all the videos would accomplish. If you want to search for them yourself, they are out there but this thread is not designed to ostracize and besmirch the players' reputations.

This is my personal attempt to help pool elevate its image.

There is no need to saturate this thread with videos of players that have committed fouls, nor is there any need to suggest links where players have admitted to fouling and not calling it on themselves.

Please, let's leave the finger pointing out of this. This is a problem that affects all of us, even those of us sitting at home watching a live stream.

Thanks for understanding.

JoeyA

 

[scsuxci]

When it comes to a point where a debate evolves about being honest
and having a proper moral compass,you know there's a really big
problem within the sport and more so,the people playing it.

 

[Masayoshi]

Who decides whos moral code applies to pool?






So you claim that YOUR moral code is the "right" code and apparently you are the poster child for societies opinion as well. Hmmmm. Apparently the world is supposed to abide by your standard of ethics in all games of pool because you know what is right and wrong. I was completely unaware as I'm sure most of the pool world was as well!!!

All kidding aside...right and wrong are often very subjective concepts. Oddly enough, the rules for pool are not so subjective.

Right and wrong are subjectie in some cases. Honesty vs dishonest in terms of sportsmanship is not one of those cases.

So if someone has a differnt perspective than you they are "Morally inept".

No, if somebody favors dishonesty over honesty, they are morally inept.

Let's suppose there are 2 women sitting at a table and one woman is pro choice. The other woman is pro life. Both believe they have a moral right/belief in their cause. Is one of these women "inept" because the other believes as you do? Should we criticize the inept one because your moral compass has concluded it is appropriate.

Considering society as a whole is still on the fence about the issue, one side could not claim the other side is morally inept.

How about we take the discussion in the other direction? Lets say one person thinks committing genocide on the entire Jewish population in Europe is okay, the other side thinks it is wrong to commit genocide on the Jews. In this case, it would be a completely accurate description for one side to call the other morally inept.

My point being....one of these women could just as easlily believe that people should always self call fouls. The other may believe that it's not their responsibility. Where you got the notion that your moral perspective has greater value than someone else simply because you wish it to be so is very self centered.

Self-centered, probably, but being self-centered is not a bad thing in this case. You could also say the people who try to get away with not calling fouls on themselves are self-centered because they don't think the rules apply to them. Of course, considering my self-centeredness is based on honesty while the other is based on dishonesty, I would say my version of self-centeredness is morally superior.

You want to know how society deals with people who have different perspectives?....we make laws to protect their freedoms.

You want to know how we protect pool players with different perspectives?....we make rules to ensure everyone's on a level playing field.

Your point is?

I have yet to see you produce a rule that states someone is "cheating" or "inept" for not self calling a foul.

I never claimed there was one, but purposefully hiding your mistake to avoid a penalty is obviously cheating and morally inept. Fouls take place whether or not they are called.

Have you looked at the rule book lately? This is not a 2 page document....it is very thorough. If it were the intentions of the authors to conclude that failure to self call fouls was cheating or prohibited conduct.....they would have addressed it in the rule book.

Pool has plenty of rules on the subject of sportsmanship. Playing as if the rules don't apply to you would obviously violate sportsmanship rules. Of course self called fouls are not included specifically in the rules because it is more important to protect the innocent from false accusations rather than to punish everybody who has possibly tried to hide a foul and there is absolutely no practical way to enforce a rule based on intent.

It is not a coincidence that this issue is not addressed and the reason is clear.....
It's Not Cheating except in the mind of those who choose to disregard the rules and superceed it with their moral interpretations.

Nobody is disregarding the rules. Calling a group of people morally inept does not violate any rules, nor does socially ousting those players from society. Laws, rules, etc. are all based on morals, not the other way around. They are made to prevent people from acting immorally, but following the rules does not necessarily mean that you have acted morally.

 

[rrick33]

Masayoshi, you just make this too easy for me to address.

1. You claim that your opinion is the prevailing opinion and must be "right" simply because you are you. Omnipotent as you may be. You try to support your position by listing society as being on your side. If society was always "right" we would still have the same laws society established 2000 years ago. If society was always right we would still apply laws like we did during the Salem witch trials. Clearly, using society to support your cause is more to my argument than yours. In any given election year 49% of society votes for the losing candidate.

2. You cliam that concepts of "right" and "wrong" are not subjective....especially in this case, despite the fact that there are 6 billion people on this planet who see the world from many unique perspectives. Unless you live in a univese of robots all programmed to think the same way, then you have lost touch with reality. Perspectives on Right & Wrong will always be subjective.....especially in a free thinking society.

3. You claim that you have never indicated that there is a rule that requires a player to self call a foul and then turn right around and claim that some players who don't self call fouls may be self centered and that's why they think they are not subject to the rules. If it's not a rule, how can they feel they are not subject to this nonexistant "rule"? You are a walking contradiction.

You cannot have a debate based on logic and reason with someone who has a skewed sense of reality. Logic and reason simply do not apply. In your univese, I'm sure all of your arguments make sense and in that respect, there's nothing anyone can say that would redefine your reality.

When the conversation reaches the point where you have to contradict yourself to reinforce your illusions, then I think the debate is over.

There's nothing logical that I can say that will redefine your reality so I leave you to believe as you wish.

 

[Diamond69]

I played a Wisconsin BCA event one time. Playing my first match and a guy makes an OBVIOUS foul where he hit my ball first (not a multi-hit question) where my ball moved an inch and a half on a semi-masse shot to get around mine to hit his.

I called him on it and he looked me straight in the eye and said "I don't see no ref". It wasn't even a shot where a ref was required. He basically admitted to fouling, but said I couldn't do anything about it. The ref's were casino employees that had minimal knowledge about pool anyway.

I just unscrewed my cue and told him if the tourney meant that much to him, he can have it.

Those are the people that ruin pool.

 

[CarlB]

Unfortunately, you are correct and people like that ruin the fun of the game.

I will always call my own fouls because I feel its the right thing to do and it is what I would hope my opponents would do as well. I also accept the fact that not all will call their own fouls. I try not to let those people ruin the game for me.

I play pool because I enjoy it. The opponent is just there because any good game has an opponent.

If I am playing outside of a tournament situation, I will not play with someone who doesn't know how to enjoy the game.

Carl B

 

[AtLarge]

Sometimes only the shooter knows he committed a foul, regardless of how closely the opponent or a referee is watching.

You must be referring to yourself committing a foul otherwise how do you know someone else did if you didn't see it?

I thought my sentence was clear. For elaboration, see post #69 above.

 

[CJ Wiley]

'Thou Shall Call a Foul on Thyself in the Game of Pocket Billiards'

I thought my sentence was clear. For elaboration, see post #69 above.

Maybe we need to get a petition together to have the "11th Commandment".....'Thou Shall Call a Foul on Thyself in the Game of Pocket Billiards'

The Game is the Teacher

 

[bdorman]

Golf has a Call-Your-Own-Fouls rule because your opponent is on the other side of the fairway, nor can a golf tournament have a referee follow each player around. It's just a matter of logistics.

There's no Call-Your-Own in tennis, baseball, basketball, football and so on.

 

[Spimp13]

There's no Call-Your-Own in tennis.

Well...when I played tennis I called a foul on myself if I touched the net on a close volley that maybe my opponent couldnt tell if I did or not. Situations like that are sort of on the honor system and are rare though. The only other "foul" I can think of would be either touching the line with my foot on a serve which would be about impossible to see on my end, or scooping/double hitting a ball that goes really quick and may appear to be a single legal hit.

 

[trob]

I repeat, sometimes only the shooter knows he committed a foul, regardless of how closely the opponent or a referee is watching.

thems the breaks then...

 

[trob]

golfers do it why not pool and make the game have a better rep.....

I believe I already answered that.. It's not the same. In golf to speed up play you don't follow each other to every shot. after you tee off you head to where your ball went. You can easily be no where near your opponent. In pool your by the table during the entire match. You can't compare the two.

 

[trob]

When it comes to a point where a debate evolves about being honest
and having a proper moral compass,you know there's a really big
problem within the sport and more so,the people playing it.

being dishonest would be you asking me was that a foul or calling a foul that occurred and me denying it knowing I fouled. I will always admit to a foul when asked or when an opponent calls one...but you have to call it. again that's your job as the sitting player to pay attention to whats going on.

 

[thewhiffer]

I played a Wisconsin BCA event one time. Playing my first match and a guy makes an OBVIOUS foul where he hit my ball first (not a multi-hit question) where my ball moved an inch and a half on a semi-masse shot to get around mine to hit his.

I called him on it and he looked me straight in the eye and said "I don't see no ref". It wasn't even a shot where a ref was required. He basically admitted to fouling, but said I couldn't do anything about it. The ref's were casino employees that had minimal knowledge about pool anyway.

I just unscrewed my cue and told him if the tourney meant that much to him, he can have it.

Those are the people that ruin pool.

Of course any player that fouls, and knows he fouled, should call it. That should be beyond debate.

In the case of the player you mention he is cheating by refusing to call this foul.

I was in a hill hill match in the Provincial Championships and my opponent fouled, he knew it and I knew it as did anyone else watching. I asked him and he gave me approximately the same look, and answer, that you received. I said to him that I had yet to see any rule book that said it was ok to foul and deny it if there was no referee, for that fact, I had never seen a rule book that said if your opponent didn't see you foul or missed calling a foul on you that it was somehow not a foul. I went on to say that I was calling a referee and the referee could decide. With bravado, bolstered by his team dreaming of winning a Championship, he told me to go ahead.

When the referee arrived I explained that I felt that the opponent had fouled and instead of saying he did not he said that there was no referee and that somehow justified it. I then said that I called him so that my opponent could describe the shot and explain how it was not a foul as I believed that most people, given sober second thought, would not cheat. I said this so the man intent on cheating and both teams could hear it.

The player looked down for a moment, his face reddened and he turned to his team and addressed the Captain saying, F**k it, I can't cheat, it was a foul" turned to me and said," Ball in hand, buddy." The referee stayed for the rest of the game and after we won both the opponent and members of his team shook hands and his team members, except for the Captain, said they were glad he decided to call the foul. Most people do not want to be cheaters but some have decided that the "no ref" move is clever and have lost sight of the fact that it is cheating, pure and simple. Speaking a bold face lie is not as easy and it is hard to spin it as clever.

I do believe, however, if it is close and even if I think that it could have been a foul, in the absense of a referee, I always defer to the judgement of the shooter, without argument and with good grace because if the shooter really believes it was ok then it was ok.

 

[liakos]

I've called fouls on myself at various times in my career unless it was forbidden. I called one on myself in Tunica that I doubt anyone could see. I want to win, but you can't put winning in front of honestly or who know$......you may end up on Wall Street before it's over.

'The Game is the Teacher'

Cj, this is why you are a champion!!! Oh, by the way, that inside spin long bank shot made me 50 bucks saturday thanks

 

[trob]

good post..that's the difference. Someone calls a foul admit to it. Not to admit to it would be cheating.

I guess there is an exception to every rule. Being a 9 in apa I ten to get stuck playing 2 and 3s. I don't really take apa very seriously and I'm more there to help people so If I fouled against someone like that who is new to the game I always let them know. That's not really a problem in apa though as anyone on your team can let you know someone fouled.

Of course any player that fouls, and knows he fouled, should call it. That should be beyond debate.

In the case of the player you mention he is cheating by refusing to call this foul.

I was in a hill hill match in the Provincial Championships and my opponent fouled, he knew it and I knew it as did anyone else watching. I asked him and he gave me approximately the same look, and answer, that you received. I said to him that I had yet to see any rule book that said it was ok to foul and deny it if there was no referee, for that fact, I had never seen a rule book that said if your opponent didn't see you foul or missed calling a foul on you that it was somehow not a foul. I went on to say that I was calling a referee and the referee could decide. With bravado, bolstered by his team dreaming of winning a Championship, he told me to go ahead.

When the referee arrived I explained that I felt that the opponent had fouled and instead of saying he did not he said that there was no referee and that somehow justified it. I then said that I called him so that my opponent could describe the shot and explain how it was not a foul as I believed that most people, given sober second thought, would not cheat. I said this so the man intent on cheating and both teams could hear it.

The player looked down for a moment, his face reddened and he turned to his team and addressed the Captain saying, F**k it, I can't cheat, it was a foul" turned to me and said," Ball in hand, buddy." The referee stayed for the rest of the game and after we won both the opponent and members of his team shook hands and his team members, except for the Captain, said they were glad he decided to call the foul. Most people do not want to be cheaters but some have decided that the "no ref" move is clever and have lost sight of the fact that it is cheating, pure and simple. Speaking a bold face lie is not as easy and it is hard to spin it as clever.

I do believe, however, if it is close and even if I think that it could have been a foul, in the absense of a referee, I always defer to the judgement of the shooter, without argument and with good grace because if the shooter really believes it was ok then it was ok.